On a completely different note from the scorpid sting debate.
Been thinking about BM and I'm wondering if having exotic pets benefit more from hunter stats (i.e. scale better) would bring BM up to where it needs to be.
It appears to me that one of BM's issues is that so many talents buff the pet, which scales poorly (compared to the hunter) as the hunter gets better gear.
Good idea, bad idea, enough?
Not necessarily a bad idea, but I don't think it's one that the devs would give us regardless. With all the comments about not wanting to dictate a single "best" DPS pet type, essentially forcing BMs to use one of the two exotic Ferocity pets is very much against the stated aims of Blizzard with regards to pet selection.
then i don't suppose having an exotic pet is really worth it for 51pts.. the only benefit so far is like 4pet points and some cute (perspective) pets with abit more utility pet skill..
In any case, with the exception of having a warrior MT, deploying Expose Armour or a Worm pet is a DPS loss in respects to those characters. It's a DPS loss not to be using a Cat or Devilsaur pet and it's a stupidly huge loss to have to consume combo point cycles on refreshing Expose Armour.
What hunters get is the ability to sacrifice some DPS to cover a lack of buffs or debuffs, something that makes our class infinitely more flexible when it comes to filling out raid coverage than you'd otherwise notice.
Do keep in mind that the Wasp debuff of 1260 ArP is classified as a minor debuff (according to Blizz) and will stack with Sunder or EW. The Wasp debuff will not stck with CoR or FFF, but in this case the Wasp is a benefit over CoR in it applies the same ArP debuff minus the AP buff associated with CoR. Whether or not you have a Bear tank or not is the only factor in bringing a Wasp or not, since I assume FFF will stay up on the target.
Wasp's are Ferocity pets with a 4 sec CD on their special, which puts it in line with other DPS pets (except maybe a Devilsaur and Cat). Just some food for thought.
then i don't suppose having an exotic pet is really worth it for 51pts.. the only benefit so far is like 4pet points and some cute (perspective) pets with abit more utility pet skill..
I have not been privileged enough to obtain a Beta key, but my "testing" on the PTR so far has steered me away from spending the points in the 51 pt BM talent. Instead, I moved that extra point into GFTT, which has been a big DPS boost in maintaining specials (this based on a level 70 build). 50/11/0 I opted to not take Cobra Strikes and 2/2 Invigoration to get 5/5 Kindred Spirits.
As it seems with the recent post by Koraa on the hunter forums announcing the upcoming changes for hunters. I see the build I linked above as ending up 50/21/0 with the current Scatter Shot slot being Readiness as mentioned for the next build.
IMO and, as it seems, the opinion of most hunters is that Beast Mastery needs a face lift to be a desirable talent. Several weeks back I found a Blue post by GC on the hunter Beta forums that stated Blizz's intention of making ALL pets relatively equal. I didn't even finish reading the rest of the post before I began working on a new build for 3.0 release that dropped Beast Mastery. The 4 extra points is "nice" at best, but not game breaking and certainly not worthy when trying to min/max. Any theorycraft out there that proves otherwise by chance?
If Aimed Shot really is "instant cast" and has no other changes, then yes, that does seem to have huge implications for PvE--unless I'm missing something, tell me if I am.
Aimed Shot has high mana usage (I think 11% base mana?) so PvE implications are iffy.
The 4 extra points is "nice" at best, but not game breaking and certainly not worthy when trying to min/max. Any theorycraft out there that proves otherwise by chance?
If nothing else, 51 BM gives you pets that have utility no other pet has, like -armor buff (doesn't stack with FF or CoR).
There are some other 51 BM pet buffs as well, but it may not be worth readiness?
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
If nothing else, 51 BM gives you pets that have utility no other pet has, like -armor buff (doesn't stack with FF or CoR).
There are some other 51 BM pet buffs as well, but it may not be worth readiness?
Other than the Devilsaur and the Rhino, the non-exotic pets have the same (or very similar) special mechanics. i.e. Core Hound vs. Nether Ray. In some cases, non-exotic special are more viable than exotic specials, i.e. Hyena or Gorilla.
Note: The Gorilla in its current state is an awesome DPS choice, even in the Tenacity tree. The 10 sec CD on TC is amazingly strong. I see a nerf incoming for Gorillas soon.
EDIT: Another non-exotic pet to keep in mind, if Blizz makes scaling changes for pets to share more stats with hunters, is the Scorpid. The sting is a 4 sec CD at (approx.) 85 - 115 damage a tick stacking up to 5 times. Add in Longevity to the the mix and this becomes a 2.8 sec CD, so the 5 stacks will pretty much stay active an entire fight. I mentioned the scaling piece because this would bolster the crit chance of the Tenacity pets making them in-line with Ferocity pets better.
Other than the Devilsaur and the Rhino, the non-exotic pets have the same (or very similar) special mechanics. i.e. Core Hound vs. Nether Ray. In some cases, non-exotic special are more viable than exotic specials, i.e. Hyena or Gorilla.
I think you mean Core Hound vs. Serpent. The Nether Ray has a completely different ability from the Core Hound. There also is no non-exotic counterpart to the worm, and the Chimera (exotic) has a special that it significantly better than the hyena (chimera has 50% snare for 5 sec. on 10 sec CD; hyena has 50% snare for 6 sec. on a 20 sec. CD. Plus the Chimera's ability does more damage).
edit: clarified slow = snare
Last edited by TrevvyTrev : 09/26/08 at 12:42 PM.
Reason: clarification
The 4 extra points is "nice" at best, but not game breaking and certainly not worthy when trying to min/max. Any theorycraft out there that proves otherwise by chance?
You can get all of the DPS talents in the Ferocity tree without the 4 extra points; all you gain is survivability/utility:
I think you mean Core Hound vs. Serpent. The Nether Ray has a completely different ability from the Core Hound. There also is no non-exotic counterpart to the worm, and the Chimera (exotic) has a special that it significantly better than the hyena (chimera has 50% snare for 5 sec. on 10 sec CD; hyena has 50% snare for 6 sec. on a 20 sec. CD. Plus the Chimera's ability does more damage).
edit: clarified slow = snare
I see what you are saying and I honestly wasn't attempting to say that the specials are complete matches when looking at similar non-exotic vs. exotic pets. But, my point is that the specials are close enough to not be a major reason to spec into the 52 point Bm talent "as is." And, thank you correcting my pet comparison (Serpent, not Nether Ray).
And, you are right. There isn't a comparison pet for the Worm since its debuff stacks like Sunder Armor, but I didn't feel Worms were even worth being mentioned since their debuff doesn't stack with Sunder Armor. Worms are situational at best (speaking in terms of raiding) if their is not a warrior tanking, or even a rogue applying Expose Armor.
There is spins for both sides of a exotic/non-exotic debate, but the 51 pt BM talent is unquestionably "lack luster" in its current state. My point mainly being that a BM hunter could (and will at this point) skip Beast Mastery for other talents without feeling they are missing out on a major pet advantage.
What I don't get is that originally the BM talent gave 5 extra points. Not sure why they adjusted it down to 4.
Clearly it was overpowered.
What I'd like to know is how the Spirit Beasts's Spirit Strike compares to a Cat's Rake now that SS stacks up to five times (from what I hear). Might be hard to test since it's a single rare spawn on a long respawn timer...
What I'd like to know is how the Spirit Beasts's Spirit Strike compares to a Cat's Rake now that SS stacks up to five times (from what I hear). Might be hard to test since it's a single rare spawn on a long respawn timer...
I'd love for someone to test it and report on the scaling/modifiers. And the mechanics. I'm unable to myself, since i"m just level 70 on the beta.
I see what you are saying and I honestly wasn't attempting to say that the specials are complete matches when looking at similar non-exotic vs. exotic pets. But, my point is that the specials are close enough to not be a major reason to spec into the 52 point Bm talent "as is." And, thank you correcting my pet comparison (Serpent, not Nether Ray).
Similarly, I'm not trying to say that the 51-pointer is "worth it" either, at least for Ferocity pets. I was just correcting some examples. The only reason I have kept it in my current beta build is because I'm using a tenacity pet to level, and those pets benefit from both survivability and dps. If dps is the only concern, then there's no reason to take the BM 51-pointer (for *any* type of pet).
Similarly, I'm not trying to say that the 51-pointer is "worth it" either, at least for Ferocity pets. I was just correcting some examples. The only reason I have kept it in my current beta build is because I'm using a tenacity pet to level, and those pets benefit from both survivability and dps. If dps is the only concern, then there's no reason to take the BM 51-pointer (for *any* type of pet).
100% agreement with you there. As I have been playing around with the talent calc trying determine the best leveling spec I am leaning towards picking up the 51 point talent in BM to have access to those 4 extra points. On the PTR, whenever I was playing around with the tenacity I can see a definite advantage in added survivability for our pets. The same could arguably be said about the Cunning tree also by having the ability to have faster access to both Wolverine Bite and Roar of Recovery.
But, from both a raiding and a PvP PoV, the true usefulness of the Beast Mastery talent is hinging on the Ferocity tree. I am curious to have verification on the DPS numbers the new Spirit Beast can produce in a raid though.
have you wasted your thoughts on leveling to 80 yet? Like what spec to choose, what pet would serve best etc...
Very interested in what you have to report
Also, on live my Steady Shot is 99 mana. My Scorpid Sting is 273 mana. Almost 3 times as much. If I were to keep Scorpid up non stop during a 6 minute fight, then thats 12 Scorpids. Thats a loss of 12 steadies, which on average will equal out to 13K damage lost (not to mention potential focus loss, lowering pet DPS). That is far more significant a number than people realize.
I'm afraid the hit is more significant that that. It will be 36 steadies over the course of a 6 minute fight, and most non-Brutallus type encounters are longer than that for the appropriate gear level.
According to the WoLK Spreadsheet, the damage lost by using Scorpid as opposed to Steady amounts to 200 DPS for this theoretical 6 minute fight.
Edit - to the above poster: I wish I was in the beta that I could test things too. However, I do know exactly how I intend to level. It has been a private dream of mine to be able to contribute to the aoe of any given encounter, so I will therefore proceed to STV the moment 3.0 goes live, tame a gorilla, and spec Explosive Shot. From what I have heard, the mana efficiency of Survival is unparalleled, and you can have your monkey aoe tank while you aoe kill. That is the route that I will pursue, personally.
Just my 2¢.
Last edited by Ghostyman : 09/26/08 at 6:03 PM.
Reason: teh refrsh r not fsat enuff
I'm afraid the hit is more significant that that. It will be 36 steadies over the course of a 6 minute fight, and most non-Brutallus type encounters are longer than that for the appropriate gear level.
According to the WoLK Spreadsheet, the damage lost by using Scorpid as opposed to Steady amounts to 200 DPS for this theoretical 6 minute fight.
I can back this up because as survival i was on scorpid duty during Brut and my dps dropped to what was usually 1750-1800, down to to 1550. Mana wasn't the issue so much as it just gums up the rotation.
I'm afraid the hit is more significant that that. It will be 36 steadies over the course of a 6 minute fight, and most non-Brutallus type encounters are longer than that for the appropriate gear level.
According to the WoLK Spreadsheet, the damage lost by using Scorpid as opposed to Steady amounts to 200 DPS for this theoretical 6 minute fight.
Edit - to the above poster: I wish I was in the beta that I could test things too. However, I do know exactly how I intend to level. It has been a private dream of mine to be able to contribute to the aoe of any given encounter, so I will therefore proceed to STV the moment 3.0 goes live, tame a gorilla, and spec Explosive Shot. From what I have heard, the mana efficiency of Survival is unparalleled, and you can have your monkey aoe tank while you aoe kill. That is the route that I will pursue, personally.
Just my 2¢.
36 steadies? How do you figure? 20s each, 6 minutes divided by 20s is 18. I could see 21-22 if it throws off the rotations enough, but 36 seems unlikely.
Originally Posted by sombreblanco
I can back this up because as survival i was on scorpid duty during Brut and my dps dropped to what was usually 1750-1800, down to to 1550. Mana wasn't the issue so much as it just gums up the rotation.
Your guild must think scorpid is worthwhile then ;-)
Going to tag on a topic brought up a bit earlier in the post, but kind of dodged discussion:
Wasp Pets.
I actually would love to see more information calculated in regards to these guys because I honestly feel they might become a staple raiding pet in Wrath because it will free up your kitties and Boomkin from using globals on the ability. Even though FF has a damage component now, the spell hit effect from Boomkin is on the same effect as Misery and 5% of AP in damage when FF is applies seems... well, low.
Basically, I'm trying to determine if a single GCD from a Druid every 30-40 seconds and the potential for FF to be resisted (it will still have a 5% resist chance assuming Misery and melee hit cap) will make up for using a Wasp vs. a Cat, Raptor, or any other pet being proposed as the optimal DPS solution. Non-feral FF does not deal any damage so a Boomkin will always be at a damage loss by maintaining it, so 1 global worth of time on a Feral, Bear or Boomkin every 40 seconds going to bridge the special damage gap other pets and a Wasp?
My guess, based off damage numbers so far is yes, but I think I need to find the math on how the pet specials are calculated damage wise. Since all of the pets suggested as DPS pets are Ferocity, their white damage and focus dumps will be identical, which comes down to only the special abilities. This is where I need some information. Since Wowhead's tooltips don't actually have coefficients on the spells in question, and as far as I can tell we can only really make good estimates on how much Spell power or AP pets will have in decent PvE gear, do any non-exotic pets supremely dwarf all the other non-exotic pets so badly that suggesting a Wasp would be way lower be crazy talk?
Basically, I'm trying to determine if a single GCD from a Druid every 30-40 seconds and the potential for FF to be resisted (it will still have a 5% resist chance assuming Misery and melee hit cap) will make up for using a Wasp vs. a Cat, Raptor, or any other pet being proposed as the optimal DPS solution. Non-feral FF does not deal any damage so a Boomkin will always be at a damage loss by maintaining it, so 1 global worth of time on a Feral, Bear or Boomkin every 40 seconds going to bridge the special damage gap other pets and a Wasp?
Well.. Feral dps doesn't actually use all of it's GCD's in Wotlk - our energy only comes so fast, and the things that accelerate that are on cooldowns. So I'd say burning a gcd for fff every 30s isn't a big deal in general.
36 steadies? How do you figure? 20s each, 6 minutes divided by 20s is 18. I could see 21-22 if it throws off the rotations enough, but 36 seems unlikely.
Your guild must think scorpid is worthwhile then ;-)
You know what. you're right. I simply punched in the wrong figure. Its 18 by my account as well. Call it 19-20 for cushion value, and you're still talking ~200 DPS lost.
On another note, something that struck my eye as potentially useful for hunters everywhere was Extract of Necromatic Power - Item - World of Warcraft. By my calculations, it adds about 35 dps on the damage proc alone, on average. The crit rating is simply icing. It looks appealing for anyone with a serpent sting build, at any rate. I suppose the real question is would one get more mileage out of +AP trinkets with the new SS coefficient, or some other new methodology entirely? I guess only time will tell...
Last edited by Ghostyman : 09/26/08 at 8:12 PM.
Reason: added some things
09/26/08, 8:46 AM
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