Yes, steady's mana efficiency will be lower because of armour mitigation, but crit (decreasing the mana cost further) and ArPen also scales as gear gets better, and we also get better weapons and amo, both of which affect steady shot and not explosive shot...
As to dodge, we're seeing very low dodge percentages. Does the diminishing returns for dodge only apply to rating/defence, or that given by agility? If the second, that explains why - it's because we're starting at a large negative number and by the time we get positive, the value of each point in agi is only having a tiny amount of effect on dodge. (Of course, it could just be the formular if it's only dodge via rating/defence which is affected by dimishing returns, but if it wasn't then tanks could stack agi rather than dodge...)
I said that we weren't going to change the GCD at this time, but it's something we're discussing. I realize you think IT MUST CHANGE. So do lots of other classes.
I really don't believe we need a 1.0 GCD, but I do believe we should be brought more in line with "lots of other classes" and have haste affect our GCD and have important abilities off of it.
I really don't believe we need a 1.0 GCD, but I do believe we should be brought more in line with "lots of other classes" and have haste affect our GCD and have important abilities off of it.
I'd settle for removing certain things from it.
Aspects. (I wouldn't mind if aspects had their own cooldown for changing, just not the GCD!)
Tracking. (Ditto)
Deterrence
Rapid Fire
Disengage (The issue with it being on the GCD is quite simply that if you're stunned, no disengage. If you're on GCD when you're brought into melee then you don't even have the lenght of their closing ability's GCD to turn and disengage!)
Intimidation (Which also really needs to be an instant)
I really don't believe we need a 1.0 GCD, but I do believe we should be brought more in line with "lots of other classes" and have haste affect our GCD and have important abilities off of it.
Well, there's no reason that I can see that Tracking and Aspects should be on the GCD. You can make arguments for things like Rapid Fire (which previously was not on the GCD now is) and Disengage, but I simply cannot see why Tracking and Aspects are still on the GCD.
Well, there's no reason that I can see that Tracking and Aspects should be on the GCD. You can make arguments for things like Rapid Fire (which previously was not on the GCD now is) and Disengage, but I simply cannot see why Tracking and Aspects are still on the GCD.
I think best bet would be to have a system that is similar to Warrior Stances. On their own little shared 'global' cooldown that is independent of all their other talents. I think that's a very reasonable solution.
I think best bet would be to have a system that is similar to Warrior Stances. On their own little shared 'global' cooldown that is independent of all their other talents. I think that's a very reasonable solution.
When a warrior switches stances, he loses access to several abilities, gains a direct penalty in two cases (ie -10% damage done in defensive, +10% damage taken in berserker), and loses most of his rage. Contrast with hunter aspects, all of which other than Aspects of the Cheetah/Pack are "How do I want to be better than I would be without an aspect?". The correct analogies are warrior shouts, paladin auras, or shaman totems, which are 1.5 sec with a rage cost, 1.5 with no cost, and 1 sec and destroyable, respectively.
When a warrior switches stances, he loses access to several abilities, gains a direct penalty in two cases (ie -10% damage done in defensive, +10% damage taken in berserker), and loses most of his rage. Contrast with hunter aspects, all of which other than Aspects of the Cheetah/Pack are "How do I want to be better than I would be without an aspect?". The correct analogies are warrior shouts, paladin auras, or shaman totems, which are 1.5 sec with a rage cost, 1.5 with no cost, and 1 sec and destroyable, respectively.
No, not really.
In PvE, we have 2 aspects which we are in for the vast majority of the time. Hawk and Viper. One is for damage, one is mana regen. It's simply not worth using most abilities in viper although technically we could (spamming steady shot, now serpent dosn't proc it per tick). And the sort of change in damage (over 50%) is certainly bigger than the warrior's!
The only other aspect for PvE, wild, is very highly situational. (Monkey, well, we have less dodge with it on in LK than we did in BC without it - meleeing is suicidal - and Beast as the math in the this thread says is useless for DPS)
First half is her telling us how her job works (she states this a lot).
Ah, here we go:
Are we going to lower hunter GCD? We don’t know. Do we think hunter mana is fine in PvP? Not sure yet. But we'll answer that one by watching a lot of Arenas. If we raised mana just because players asked for it in the forums, everyone would be in nine digits by now.
How long have arenas been up? Seems a bit odd that they still don't know how hunters are doing.
Next, she addresses the dodge gap:
Those numbers are correct. Note your total Agi. That’s not a high number. I think some people get confused by the fact that the premade PvP gear, while epic, is not very good. Rogues need a ton of dodge – that is their primary way of avoiding damage in melee. You shouldn’t be in melee most of the time. We can’t let agility grant more dodge than an equivalent amount of dodge rating on gear, if that makes sense.
Sure. Go ask your rogue buddy how much ranged attack power he gets from Agi compared to you (it's around half). Derived combat stats vary from class to class. AP is calculated differently from warriors to rogues.
You asked if it was a bug. No, it’s not a bug. We don’t want hunters to have that much dodge. Look, your rogue buddy has to melee and has low armor. For melee, by the time they finally get up on a hunter, they need to be able to do some damage before they are trapped or wing clipped or you disengage.
If dodge is a very pressing issue, we can look at it again. But it sounds like mana is a much bigger concern.
2% dodge is a really, really small number. I think it's strange that she says the premade gear is "not very good", but shouldn't that be accepted as a starting point or an "average" player's gear?
Maybe she's implying that hunters are intended to be able to stay at a range much easier, to the point where they should be more vulnerable in melee to compensate.
In PvE, we have 2 aspects which we are in for the vast majority of the time. Hawk and Viper.
Hey, warriors only have two shouts! We should totally hang out.
I had a total brain fart and forgot Viper gave a direct damage penalty now, but the other aspects still are just gravy. I still don't think there's any chance of aspects being taken off the GCD or put onto a stance-style shared cooldown. Blizzard just doesn't take things off the GCD that have an immediate effect. Almost everything that's off the GCD are DPS cooldowns that don't do anything until you actually do something else that is on the GCD. The only exceptions I can think of are, uh, all warrior abilities, so I'm just going to stop talking now and hope GC doesn't read this thread.
Hey, warriors only have two shouts! We should totally hang out.
I had a total brain fart and forgot Viper gave a direct damage penalty now, but the other aspects still are just gravy. I still don't think there's any chance of aspects being taken off the GCD or put onto a stance-style shared cooldown. Blizzard just doesn't take things off the GCD that have an immediate effect. Almost everything that's off the GCD are DPS cooldowns that don't do anything until you actually do something else that is on the GCD. The only exceptions I can think of are, uh, all warrior abilities, so I'm just going to stop talking now and hope GC doesn't read this thread.
No, rapid fire, our "DPS addon cooldown which dosn't do much unless you press buttons" cooldown is on the GCD in LK. It wasn't in BC, note.
Also, I note that Rogue's Evasion, the closest thing to deterrence, is not on the GCD.
2% dodge is a really, really small number. I think it's strange that she says the premade gear is "not very good", but shouldn't that be accepted as a starting point or an "average" player's gear?
Well, that's with ~600 AGI... which I had in 5-man blues at level 70. 2% dodge is a really small number... from a fairly low amount of AGI. And remember, we've got a negative offset to dodge, so increasing AGI by 50% will increase dodge by more than 50%. Also, don't forget Aspect of the Monkey. In order for Monkey to be balanced, 'pre-monkey' dodge has to be on the weak side.
Our survivability at melee range is already enhanced by mail armor, parrying and Monkey... I'm not convinced that it would be possible to give us 'acceptable' dodge in level 80 blues without it becoming 'overpowered' by Season 7 / Tier 9.
Hey, warriors only have two shouts! We should totally hang out.
I had a total brain fart and forgot Viper gave a direct damage penalty now, but the other aspects still are just gravy. I still don't think there's any chance of aspects being taken off the GCD or put onto a stance-style shared cooldown. Blizzard just doesn't take things off the GCD that have an immediate effect. Almost everything that's off the GCD are DPS cooldowns that don't do anything until you actually do something else that is on the GCD. The only exceptions I can think of are, uh, all warrior abilities, so I'm just going to stop talking now and hope GC doesn't read this thread.
I don't know what you mean by immediate effect. The second a war went into Bers he gained crit, similar to the second a hunter activates hawk he gains Ranged AP. However neither the extra crit not the extra AP actually DO anything until an action is taken that IS on the global cooldown (some sort of offense attack). Viper used to activate a passive regen on activation but does not currently. And even then the additional mana gained doesn't have any immediate value until an action is taken.
I don't know what you mean by immediate effect. The second a war went into Bers he gained crit, similar to the second a hunter activates hawk he gains Ranged AP.
That's a good point; I never even think about the +3% crit on berserker because sitting in it in PVP and PVE is the default choice for many other reasons. I suppose with that as precedent it's conceivable that hunters get might aspects taken off the GCD, but I would not hold my breath for it.
That's a good point; I never even think about the +3% crit on berserker because sitting in it in PVP and PVE is the default choice for many other reasons. I suppose with that as precedent it's conceivable that hunters get might aspects taken off the GCD, but I would not hold my breath for it.
IMO, it makes sense, although the stance analogy is weak... but comparing them to auras is, IMO, much more appropriate. They're passive abilities which confer minor bonus (some, even, to the entire party).
I think they'd have to have their own cooldown, though, otherwise the potential for Aspect-twisting could raise some pretty ugly exploits... errr... 'legitimate uses of gameplay mechanics'.
The issue isn't the relative bonuses of stances versus aspects, Modah. The issue is that the Hunter class, as it stands, is incredibly GCD-heavy - at a rough count, hunters have around forty GCD-eating abilities that are necessary for PvP. I don't think any class has nearly that many PvP skills, and that's why we'd like some of them to be off the GCD. Hypothetically, if something gets in melee of me, I want to pop Aspect of the Monkey, Wing Clip, and Disengage. The problem is that doing that leaves me sitting in melee for 4.5 seconds, which is very dangerous in PvP just from a damage standpoint, never mind opening us up to stuns or snares, and we have to spend another GCD going back to Hawk so we can try and kill something, further hindering our chances. As a result, Monkey just doesn't get used in PvP, because it's not worth the lost GCDs.
That's a good point; I never even think about the +3% crit on berserker because sitting in it in PVP and PVE is the default choice for many other reasons. I suppose with that as precedent it's conceivable that hunters get might aspects taken off the GCD, but I would not hold my breath for it.
I think taking Steady off the GCD is the most obvious answer we can all think of at the moment. It would make all the haste they're loading us up with make much more sense.
I think taking Steady off the GCD is the most obvious answer we can all think of at the moment. It would make all the haste they're loading us up with make much more sense.
Ugh. Dear God, no. That'd be broken in about 12 different ways. The way to make haste useful is to give us GCD-scaling, or give it to pets, or give us a flat 1-second cooldown, or buff Steady Shot's damage and push it out to a 2.5-second cast... but that's a completely different discussion.
I certainly think abilities that have off-GCD analogs in other classes (e.g. Deterrence) should be off GCD. Hunters are uniquely vulnerable to GCD-lockout, as a lot of the abilities we use to get range only buy us a few seconds (e.g. Disengage, Frost Trap, Scatter Shot), and burning those seconds waiting for the GCD is a substantial reduction in the effectiveness of those abilities.
I think taking Steady off the GCD is the most obvious answer we can all think of at the moment. It would make all the haste they're loading us up with make much more sense.
Er, no, they can't possibly take Steady off the GCD. Not a damage ability, no way, no how.
I think taking Steady off the GCD is the most obvious answer we can all think of at the moment. It would make all the haste they're loading us up with make much more sense.
I'd disagree with that since it'll make Steady Shot a far more valuable DPS ability than anything else we have. The fact that Steady Shot is now limited to a single GCD regardless means that you have a yardstick on determining how much damage Steady shot will do in relation to every other instant shot we have on a standard time measure. At the moment, if a particular shot does more damage on a shot-per shot basis than Steady, then you'll want to use it when it's avaliable and have Steady Shot act as a filler in between those cool downs as they all have the same time cost. If you want to unlink Steady from the GCD, you'll need to make all of the rest of the GCDs reducable via haste to maintain that balance.
I personally do not want to go back to the days of steady shot spamming, though that's the way BM is heading.
I'd agree with Aspects, Tracking and Traps being taken off GCD or all of those abilities share a 'Utility' GCD cycle of their own, but I feel that all shots and stings should have a constant GCD to ensure that our DPS can be predicted and adjusted to scale in a reliable manner.
Adding Haste and other ratings to pets would go much further in addressing the values of stats since we'll have a full application of stats rather than piecemeal with one spec having a 80% effective use for the stats while another has less than 50%.
If you want to unlink Steady from the GCD, you'll need to make all of the rest of the GCDs reducable via haste to maintain that balance.
Allowing haste to effect our shots GCD is something Im totally for, so I have to ask, would allowing all of the shots to be effected by haste in regards to our GCD be that bad? So long as every shot receives the same benefit of the stats in relation to how much it lowers our GCD I dont see how it would throw anything out of balance. The other shots should maintain their value in terms of us wanting to use them when they are up (like a SV hunter rotating in ES) so long as the haste effect those shots GCD as well.
I guess it would be pretty cool if they changed haste to a 100% transfer to pets for hunter as well as letting us keep its current effect on our white DPS. But something has got to give, 200+ haste on the PvE Naxx set, and a BM hunter is receiving severe diminishing returns on it just as soon as he speccs into the 20% haste. It just seems poorly designed. Either they need to re-itemize around stats that actually mean something for us, or we will end up piecing together pieces of armor from bosses that aren't set pieces in an attempt to take advantage of the stats we really need.
Allowing haste to effect our shots GCD is something Im totally for, so I have to ask, would allowing all of the shots to be effected by haste in regards to our GCD be that bad?
Well, given that Steady is the only shot without a cooldown (bearing in mind that stings have a cooldown equal to their duration), the downside to hasted GCDs is that we may well wind up Steady spamming if we get enough passive haste... and I don't ever want to go back there...
Ugh. Dear God, no. That'd be broken in about 12 different ways. The way to make haste useful is to give us GCD-scaling, or give it to pets, or give us a flat 1-second cooldown, or buff Steady Shot's damage and push it out to a 2.5-second cast... but that's a completely different discussion.
The reasonable implementation for Steady Shot is what is in place on live right now. Extending it from a 1.5 to a 2 second cast with appropriate damage adjustments would actually be a vast improvement over the current implementation (obvious, in addition to the removal of steady-auto linking) since it would give a lot more wiggle room for massively hasted skill usage.
Steady shot simply needs to have a 1-second global so our abilities which boost haste don't solely affect our auto shot DPS.
Either allowing GCD to scale with Haste (which puts only BM Hunters at a 0.05 Haste deficit) or to simply return to the 1.0 GCD on Steady Shot fixes the problem. Right now Haste isn't that bad, it's that haste doesn't scale with our special damage which makes up a very significant portion of our damage. If we did significantly more white damage as Rogues and Warriors do it wouldn't be as much of an issue, but obviously that's not the intended Hunter design.
There are also a lot of other options Blizzard has to fix this problem, saving it isn't one is being ignorant as fuck though. For all I care they could throw away the 15% haste on our Quiver and boost our damage to compensate if they really want to leave it as is.
Aspects has been answered plenty of times although in slightly different forms, they are worried that people will make scripts that change them constantly so that you sort of get the benefit from several of them at the same time, witch is not the intended effect. Bottomline is stop asking for it, because it wont EVER happen, all you do is waste peoples time. Paladin auras is the exact same deal and it hasn't been changed in 4 years. Let it go!
Tracking is sort of the same deal, you are not supposed to be able to change it every few seconds so that you artificially can both track and get benefit from improved tracking on several different mob types, take a pick and stick with it.
As for disengange it does not need to be taken off the gcd. No other similar ability works that way and this game has to be enjoying for melee as well.
Rapid Fire and Disengage should be off the GCD for consistency reasons and it is propably a bug if they aren't.
10/02/08, 7:39 PM
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