Chul

That reminds me. When I saw huge DPS numbers from hunters they had absurdly high crit rates. Even in the screenshot I posted showed very high crit.

At T6 gear I have 30% crit unbuffed. In the WotLK DPS spreadsheet, an unbuffed lvl 80 in what is the equivalent of T4 gear is the same. Something isn't right here.

 

Shandara

Possibly the ratings conversion I use is incorrect. I took them from the Combat Ratings at 80 thread on these forums.

It is 45,892 crit rating per 1% and 83,33 agility per crit. And we still start with a -1,53% base crit chance.

WotLK Hunter DPS Spreadsheet

 

Chul

No, I meant something is wrong with the agi->crit ratio, crit rating->crit %, itemisation or something because the screenshot of the person doing 6k+ DPS had 44% crit buffed which means around 32% crit unbuffed. For entry level gear, your crit really shouldn't be that high.

For example, check out the link Scruff posted a few posts back and look at the crit rate of various attacks. Again, for entry level gear, they shouldn't be that high.

 

Midnight

None of the engineering tinkers stacks with enchantments which makes them good for PvP at best. Not sure about sockets.

FaceShooter - a hunter shot recommendation AddOn
The optimism of action is better than the pessimism of thought.
- Greenpeace UK

 

◊ arison

I've been spending some time on the spec question for level 70 (focusing on Sunwell). Here is where I am right now:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Unless you're wearing a lot of leather, you need to get Careful Aim. Raid buffed, I sit around 300 int, and 300 AP probably outweighs 18% more steady shot crit damage once pet buffs are taken into account (that 300 becomes 330 with the 10% bonus, etc).

The main uncertainty is trading off Cobra Strikes for Kindred Spirits. I tend to think 2/3 + 3/5 is better than 1/3 + 4/5 or 3/3 + 2/5, but it needs some detailed in-raid testing. I think 1/3 in CS really means you have to spend another point on Frenzy.

Spirit Bond's +healing percent is very nice, though not really a DPS increase. I tend to think fights like Felmyst, Twins, M'uru, etc really make it worthwhile in helping with healer mana, but I need to see it in action first. If not SB, then maybe another point in frenzy. I'm assuming our +hit still translates fully to pets, meaning Animal Handler is no longer necessary.

I find Invigoration to be completely lackluster. Given a large percentage of our damage is our pet, and glyphed and with Imp Aspects we're at "only" -30% damage, Invigoration just doesn't seem worth it right now. Haste is a mana regen stat for us now, in a way, and BM sure has no shortage in haste damage.

Two points in Go for the Throat are mandantory. I just don't see how it could be skipped. Combined with Cobra Strikes, it is great dps (I saw nearly 50% crit rate from my pet when I was testing on a target dummy... stunning).

I like the new Focused Aim, but right now, most of us are geared to be hit capped. At 80, it may be better, but at 70 and in the current gear context, we don't need it.

A lot of it comes down to getting a feel for how things look in terms of mana regen and general synergy. Perhaps pet dps will be so incredible that 1/3 CS wins, or perhaps it will turn out the crit synergy (frenzy, etc) will be so dominating that 2/5 KS would be preferred. Can't wait to try it out next Tuesday.

 

sjogren

Do you really think Longevity is worthwhile without a glyph of bestial wrath (which won't be available until the expansion), compared to more points in Kindred Spirit?

Though I see you have no on-use trinket to line up with bestial wrath anyway, so it might be a moot point.

Kindred Spirit adds at least 1% dps per point (assuming pet contributes at least 25% of your total dps), so that's what Longevity is up against. Not sure how significant the cooldown reduction on pet specials is, but I'm having a hard time seeing how increasing bestial wrath uptime from 15% to 21% can increase dps by 3%...


Regarding professions, don't forget that the JC-only gems are prismatic, so it'll be easier to grab neat socket bonuses and fulfill metagem requirements.

 

Squinky001

If this is true, why on earth did they make the Glyph of Bestial Wrath available to inscriptors on the PTR?

 

Gorah

Probably to allow wider testing. If I remember correctly all the major glyphs (or at least most of them) will require Northrend herbs to create at the end of the day.

 

Hellraza

I would rather consider a build like this one:
Lvl70 BM build

At least according to WtoLK spreadsheet Careful Aim offers better dps than spending the 3 points into Mortal Shots. I guess no Invigoration and only 1/3 Cobra Strikes might hurt us a bit, but I would rather get Kindred Spirit 5/5.
Also I am passing on Focused Aim for lvl70 3.0 build simply because with my current gear I have more than enough hit rating.

For Marks I was thinking something like this:
Lvl70 MM build
Again, according to the spreadsheet, 3/5 Imp. Tracking is slightly better than 3/3 Wild Quiver or Piercing shots. I left out Aimed and Silencing since both will offer very little for raiding.

Any thoughts how I can improve both builds? I guess both will require some live testing before we can fine tune them.

 

Celfydd

I somehow doubt that. In order to keep Expose Armor up the rogue has to drop all her Rupture finishers, accounting for a 5-10% personal DPS loss. You'd have to show that bringing a Ferocity pet instead of your worm boosts your overall damage (i.e. not just that of your pet) by an equivalent amount. It would be much better to give the job to a warrior who has Sunder Armor as part of their standard DPS rotation in any case.

 

◊ arison

The glyph was only available because the raw mats were able to be milled from low level herbs, which apparently isn't the case any longer.

Longevity is an open question that seems like a no-brainer at first. I think the benefit from rabid and other pet cooldowns will as well. For some it obviously is worthless, but for a raptor it could have benefit, or a wolf (unless it still sucks; I've not followed so closely each twist and turn of the pets as they change). Perhaps cats (though 1 point probably is optimal for cats, ensuring 100% uptime of the bleed dot and aligning perfectly to pet GCDs). The net effect from BW/TBW on dps w/o Ferocity is 1.5% hunter dps and 7.5% pet dps. With it, these numbers become 2.14% and 10.7% respectively. So, you're right, without the glyph, it doesn't look that nice (letting you go to 4/5 KS and 3/3 CS). It still leaves one point for Longevity or any other BM talent while still getting 3/3 CS. It depends on pet abilities, and there is some utility (it gives around 1.3% reduction in mana cost) but it probably isn't going to be compelling at 70... but 1pt plus a cat could be interesting.

 

Mysto82

Jea, I've heard that BW & TBW is resetted by Readyness in the actual Build (Uncommented yet). With this changes I think about the following hybrid for lvl 80:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?hunt...10253100000000

Taking into account that we have tons of haste on our T7 Set, I would get the most out of that. And I think the Trueshot Aura is stronger than TBW, taking into account that I will spend my time in max 10 People Instances. So I will not have another MM-Hunter with Aura or an Offtank with Battleshout. Neither a DK, since we are not a pro Guild.

 

Shandara

I've tested it on Beta.. Readiness now resets both Intimidation and BW/TBW. Rather than your hybrid build I would say that a 50/21/0 build is probably the highest DPS. Passing up Kindred Spirits is a big no-no.

Also Explosive Shot properly works with Mortal Shots now. And Sniper Training actually works on the correct range. Rake is unchanged as far as I can see, but it'll probably get nerfed in a coming build.

Depending if you're hit-capped, that'd be something like this or this, depending on your mana needs. Obviously a lot of points can be shifted about.

WotLK Hunter DPS Spreadsheet

 

TMoe

Quick Question: Does Call of the Wild stack with TSA/Unleashed Rage ? If it doesnt i dont see any point in skilling it especially as MM or with an Enhancer in your raid.

 

Mysto82

One thing: This Idea of this hybrid is useless for people going in 25 man Raid. It is only relevant for maximizing solo dmg od 10 Player dungeon where I do not get Thrueshot Aura or something like that.

The Point is that 10% AP is calculated before the percentage dmg increase of the pet. If we assume 10% AP of pet is 10% dmg increase (not sure if that's correct). then in my Build there are 50% of Pet dmg increased (Unleashed Fury, Franzy what should be up all the time). This would result in 15% overall increase of the pet dmg for only 1 Skillpoint (same as Kindred Spirits 4/5). I will ignore Serpent's Swiftness, since the haste for me is irrelevant (T7) and 20% dmg increase of the pet don't worth 5 Points.

These things make the BM Skills relatively weak in my eyes.

 

Chul

Not sure about the current build, but in previous builds it did stack with TSA.

 

Shandara

The problem with just stating numbers like that is that they are completely off. 10% pet AP does not equal 10% pet damage.

By taking TSA, you give up: Invigoration, Cobra Strikes, Serpent's Swiftness and the Beast Within. Not to mention Kindred Spirits.

Remember that Kindred Spirits is a multiplicative %-based pet damage modifier. It'll improve with the more %-based modifiers you have and the BM tree has quite a few. So, despite it saying 4/8/12/16/20% damage, it's actually more than that.

WotLK Hunter DPS Spreadsheet

 

Mysto82

True and I'm not completely sure if the calculation work's this way, but there are not a lot more factors that influence pet dmg.

Is it really this? With Unleashed Fury both values should simply be added. But Ok, you are right. The increase of atackspeed means multyplying both factors.

Btw: Soryy for my english. I hope you can ounderstand me at least a bit.

That's not fair, since I also get Combat Experience (increases pet Dmg as well, since Attributes buffed), Ranged weapon Spec, Piercing Shots.

 

Celfydd

Please correct me if I'm wrong:

BW has a 120 second cooldown. Readiness has a 180 second cooldown.

If I don't have Readiness or Longevity I can cast BW every 120 seconds.
If I have Readiness but not Longevity I can cast BW twice every 180 seconds (once at 120 and once at 180, the CD gets reset so it's the same in the next 180-second period), for an average of 1 BW every 90 seconds.
If I have 3/3 Longevity but not Readiness I can cast BW once every 84 seconds (120-(120x0.3)).
If I have both 3/3 Longevity and Readiness I can cast BW 3 times every 186 seconds (once at 84, once at 168, and once at 186 - note that since BW lasts 18 seconds you don't want to cast Readiness+BW until the last BW finished) for an average of 1 BW every 62 seconds.

So according to this a BM build that has Readiness but not Longevity (as Shandara describes) is worse than one that just has 3/3 Longevity. And you have to have quite a few filler talents in MM to get to Readiness meaning that if you have 3/3 Longevity as well you're only going to have 1 point left to put into either Cobra Strikes or Invigoration.

 

ZulazeeluIcecrown

And remember, they said cats would be nerfed, and if they erred on pet power they would err on the side of exotics. So all is not lost in hoping that the 51 point talent will be worth taking. Though it does remain in limbo for the moment.

 

Miya Mirage

I'd rather say you'd want to use Readiness as soon as you used BW, because you wont lose the Buff by resetting its cd but you get the Readiness CD ticking down already, which in return might give you another use or maybe even two in longer fights.

Edit: To the post above: In that case Beast Mastery would be competing against Readiness, which would make BM have to have more than just 4 points not helping Ferocity pets' damage to give it an edge.

 

Masnie

I don't think you can calculate it like that. First of all: real raid situation and fight length will have a big impact on any BW usage, so theorycrafting has its limits here.
You are leaving out the fact that any rotation will start with BW and Readiness not on CD, so it will look something like this (with 3/3 Longevity and Readiness)

0:00 start BW
0:18 1st BW ends, Readiness, start 2nd BW
0:36 2nd BW ends
1:32 BW Cooldown is up, start 3rd BW
1:50 3rd BW ends
2:56 BW Cooldown is up, start 4th BW
3:14 4th BW ends
3:18 Readiness CD is up, use Readiness, start 5th BW
etc.

This is where fight length is important though. While readiness only gave you one additional BW in a 3 minute fight, you get 2 additionaly BWs in a 4 minute fight. The value is hard to measure, but it has nice stacking potential: having 36 seconds of Bestial Wrath during a Bloodlust/Heroism sounds very nice.

 

Shandara

Don't forget the Glyph, which provides a nice synergy with both Readiness and Longevity.

I think the point is you want your TBW cooldown at such a number that it fits a whole number of times within the Readiness cooldown (since using TBW after readiness resets the cooldown).

With Glyph, 3/3 Longevity, Readiness.
TBW is ( 120 - 20 ) * 70% = 70 seconds (is this confirmed how it works?)

0:00 - BW
0:18 - BW ends, Readiness, 2nd BW
0:36 - BW ends
1:28 - BW cd is up, use BW
1:46 - BW ends
2:38 - BW cd is up, use BW
2:56 - BW ends
3:18 - Readiness is up, use Readiness and BW
3:36 - BW ends
4:28 - BW up, use BW
4:46 - BW ends
5:38 - BW up, use BW
5:56 - BW ends
6:18 - Readiness is up, use Readiness and BW
<etc>

So after the initial BW you get 3 BWs every 3 minutes and waste 40 seconds of BW cooldown time after the 3rd because Readiness is off CD too early (or too late).


Or

TBW is 120*70% - 20 = 64 seconds

0:00 - use BW
0:18 - BW ends, use Readiness and BW
0:36 - BW ends
1:22 - BW up, use BW
1:40 - BW ends
2:26 - BW up, use BW
2:44 - BW ends
3:18 - Readiness is up (BW would be at 3:30), use BW
<etc>

In this case you waste 52 seconds of BW cooldown time (just 12 secs left before it gets off).

In this case it's the same, no? 3 BWs in 3 minutes after the first initial one. There's probably a point where it's more profitable to wait for BW to come off cooldown instead of using Readiness right away.

WotLK Hunter DPS Spreadsheet

 

Mysto82

Minimizing Cooldown:


- Cast ZDW [1]
- Cast Readyness
- Cast ZDW [2]
- (120 sec Cooldown)
- Cast ZDW [3]
- (120 sec Cooldown)
Cast ZDW
(leasts 18 sec)
Cast Readyness
Cast ZDW

So I will cast ZDW 3 times every 240 sec. This leads to every 80 sec. And I have two extra points levt to spend.

 

Osse

In spreadsheet I get roughly 35 dps more with 0/54/7. You also won't have AotH up 100% of the time in a fight longer than 3 minutes. :/