In your example, the first BW does not form part of the rotation: it's an opener, since it is never repeated. The rotation is the repeating pattern, which starts at 0:18 in your example.

Damn, of course you're right. So with the Glyph:

3/3 Longevity only: 1 BW every 64 seconds
Readiness only: 2 BW every 180 seconds (100s, 180s; 1 BW every 90 seconds on average)
3/3 Longevity and Readiness: 3 BW every 180 seconds (64s, 128s, 180s; 1 BW every 60 seconds on average)

Looks like the Glyph has a much better synergy with Longevity than with Readiness. It is really going to be worth losing 5 possible talent points in high end BM for only 4 seconds off your BW cooldown?

Now consider the following situation:

With 3/3 Longevity, Glyph and Readiness (64s BW)

0:00 - Readiness comes off CD, use BW #1
1:04 - BW off CD, #2
2:08 - BW off CD, #3
3:00 - Readiness off CD, but waiting for next BW
3:12 - BW off CD, #4
3:30 - use Readiness, use BW <repeat>

That's 4 BWs in 3:30 (every 52,5s) as opposed to 3 in 3:00 (every 60s).

Yep, get rid of the mana restoring talents and Cobra Strikes and get Mana Efficency instead.
Since you will also get rapid fire resetted Readyness affects more than only BW. Aditionally You can also reset Traps and Intimidation, taht can help you out in situations where you are responsible for CC.

BTW: You will never loose 5 talent points in high BM für Readyness, since Readyness is only one Point so you have another 4 points to spend. They might have minor use, bit Comparing 5/5 Whatever against 1/1 Readyness is not proper work.

You loose 4 points as you need to get to Readiness. 20 points in MM without getting Readiness isn't a must have.

I believe this will be really difficult to calculate. Not getting cobra strike and invigoration is out of the question, might as well spec MM then.

So the choiche is getting Kindered Spirit or going for readiness, namely this one or this one with 2 extra talent to put where you prefer with many possibilities available.

I believe spec number 2 with beast mastery is gonna dominate not only cause it's just a matter of time they'll nerf cats and any serious BM hunter is gonna get a devilsaur to raid, but also cause using the BW rotations at 100% potential is gonna be hard and happening only in a perfect stand and shoot situation not to mention the times you have to wait to use it cause you are stuck in viper aspect and you have to wait to regen mana, something that is not gonna happen that often.

20% extre pet dps on the other hand is gonna be a much reliable bonus and if pet dps stays like it is now, it means about 200 dps worth, not too shabby.

The BW glyph and 3/3 longevity makes the CD 70 seconds, not 64. The glyph is applied first to make the CD 100 seconds, and then the 30% is taken off. The tooltip shows 1.17 minutes when you have both of them.*

*unless that changed this morning, I haven't logged in yet.

Of course a Warrior would be optimal, but my post was in response to a guy saying he would get BM the talent (and hence the Worm) for the cases where a Warrior wasn't present.

A Tenacity pet is lower DPS for the Hunter overall. I hope this is a mistake on your part to question that. If Ferocity pets do around 50% DPS, then not getting Rabid, Call of the Wild, the 9% crit, the Ferocity bonus as well as a marked difference in special power (in case of Cats for instance), is definately going to be huge losses. On top of forced to get a lackluster talent since the 4 points really don't add anything for Tenacity or Ferocity in terms of rDPS (we'll see how much they err on the side of Exotics as that might have an impact).

A Tenacity pet could very well end up being much more than a 10% loss of DPS for BM (and since only the Worm can 'Sunder' it can only be argued in favour of BM), on top of the loss to the raid from Call of the Wild.

And looking at this PTR report Rupture really isn't 10% of Rogue DPS, more like 3-4% (in this report they go from 2.4 to 3.99%). And as far as I have understood it, these guys had access to the Rupture Glyph (though that is unclear).

In regards to the DPS of Hunters, seems I have been overtaken by developments.

Ah, I wasn't sure how the glyph worked.

It then becomes:

3/3 Longevity, Glyph, Readiness:

0:00 - Readiness ready, BW #1
1:10 - BW #2
2:20 - BW #3
3:00 - Readiness, BW again <repeat>

OR

0:00 - Readiness ready, BW #1
1:10 - BW #2
2:20 - BW #3
3:00 - Readiness up, but wait for BW
3:30 - BW #4
3:48 - Readiness, BW <repeat>

So 3 every 3mins (60s CD) or 4 every 3:48 (57 seconds). Not much benefit waiting then.

0/3 Longevity, Glyph, Readiness (100 sec CD):

0:00 - Readiness, BW #1
1:40 - BW #2
3:00 - Readiness Ready, but waiting
3:20 - BW #3
3:38 - Readiness, BW <repeat>

So 3 in 3:38, 72s frequency. Without waiting you get 2 in 3:00 (90s frequency).

3/3 Longevity, no Glyph, Readiness (84 sec CD):

0:00 - Readiness, BW #1
1:24 - BW #2
2:48 - BW #3
3:06 - Readiness, BW <repeat>

So 3 in 3:06 or 62 sec frequency.

Problem is that taking the Glyph is a no-brainer for BM and dumping it doesn't free up the Glyph spot for something vastly better. I'd rather free up some talent points.

1/3 Longevity, Glyph, Readiness (90 sec CD)

0:00 - Readiness, BW #1
1:30 - BW #2
3:00 - BW #3
3:18 - Readiness

3x BW in 3:18 (66 sec)

2/3 Longevity, Glyph, Readiness (80 sec CD)

0:00 - Readiness, BW #1
1:20 - BW #2
2:40 - BW #3
3:00 - Readiness

3x BW in 3:00 (60sec)

So, judging by the duration of BW and the cooldowns involved, 2/3 Longevity and the Glyph are the most efficient if you take Readiness.

I've been playing with the new spreadsheet to determine my talent spec once 3.0 goes live. I'll most likely be switching from Survival to Marksmen at that point. Anyway, as far as some of the more questionable talent choices go, here's a listing of how much dps each talent gave me per point in my current gear:

Improved Aspect of the Hawk: 17.436
Focused Fire: 29.915
Aspect Mastery: 26.84

Focused Aim: 26.84 (Probably higher since I don't think it was improving my pets dps on the spreadsheet)
Lethal Shots: 22.678
Careful Aim: 69.71
Improved Hunter's Mark: 5.73 (17.19~ if you have 3 Hunters in the raid)
Mortal Shots: 32.31
Go for the Throat: 58.6
Improved Arcane Shot: 16.84
Improved Stings: 20.4
Combat Experience: 27.47
Ranged Weapon Specialization: 27.15
Piercing Shots: 4.38 (Nice!)
Wild Quiver: 24.63
Marked for Death: 40.506

Improved Tracking: 27.15
Survival Instincts: 20.835

So, that said, this is the build I'm thinking of currently: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Any thoughts? My biggest question is whether or not it's possible to go without Efficiency. It appears to extend the duration of my mana by over a full minute, so it seems pretty decent. I'm also not sure how good Improved Steady Shot and Rapid Recuperation are.

Interesting Sebudai, staple talents like Lethal Shots and Imp Stings are actually pretty poor choices, though Lethal Shots certainly has synergy with one of the best talents GftT and Mortal Shots of course. Imp Stings has less synergy, but at least has some with Chimera. Surprised at the value of Wild Quiver though.

Also been thinking about the patch and builds for that.

I'm not so worried about the lesser points. But at 70 BM the talent is actually quite powerful. That is the point where the 4 extra points are worth something. You get 17 points with it, 13 without. With 17 points you can get all the good stuff and Heart of the Phoenix. Pretty tasty to be honest. With 13 points you have to sacrifice something. Heart is obviously the first. But then the hard choices come. Do you drop Rabid and Call of the Wild and a point in Spider's Bite? Or do you keep Rabid and only spend one point in Spider's Bite. Personally I would go for the latter.

So the loss of Heart of the Phoenix, Call of the Wild and 6% pet crit in return for 25 focus on Hunter crits.
Honestly, I don't know which is better. Every part of me longs for Go for the Throat, it should be enough to max focus. But at the same time the loss of utility and specials will hurt. Call of the Wild could be huge with Longevity in a physical heavy raid. Caster heavy raids should see an obvious choice in the GftT build.
Neither build really look balanced for a BM Hunter. One has an unfinished pet, the other has a pet that isn't free to do what it wants.

Ironic really that BM the talent is most effective now, but will just become fluff later. I don't even know if I will be happy if Exotics will be better (according to the blue post on erring on the side of Exotics). It just seems inefficent.

Your numbers can't be right for hunter's mark, Sebudai.

BW+TBW is an additional 30% of your overall (hunter+pet) damage if the pet is providing 50% of the hunter's damage (reports from the PTR suggest that this is the case for BM).

Combine that with the time that it will be active (18/60 for 2/3 Longevity + Readiness vs. 18/70 for 3/3 Longevity) gives us:

9% overall damage for 2/3 Longevity + Readiness
7.7% overall damage for 3/3 Longevity only

So the difference is 1.3% damage with 2 talent points available for Invigoration and/or Cobra Strikes, compared to maxing Invigoration and Cobra Strikes and getting Beast Mastery if you want. And yes, I am ignoring the value of the filler MM talents (Efficiency/Improved Stings) as I don't think they are significantly useful for BM, although I would be happy to see some numbers on that: is 5/5 Efficiency anywhere near as good as 2/2 Invigoration?

You're right. The spreadsheet must be going off of the level 76. Improved Hunter's Mark is much worse at level 70 than I listed above. Fixing.

Have you checked how piercing shots adds up against a debuffed target?

Full sunders, fairie fire, curse of recklessness, any other armor ignoring affects? And if the talent is considered before or after the target debuffs?

The values I listed are with full level 70 buffs/debuffs turned on.

I'd have to agree with this.
Hunter's Mark (at Level 70) is 110 RAP. 10% increase per talent point = +11 RAP per talent point

Rough estimate on how much we would expect, using the 0.4 RAP --> 1 DPS guideline we've seen to be fairly accurate previously:
11*0.4 = 4.4 DPS.
Obviously, the ratio we're using will probably change quite a bit in the expansion, but it's at least a very rough guideline.

You've got 14.2 DPS listed, from 11 RAP.
That's ~1.3 DPS gained per RAP. Way off our estimate.

Mind double checking your values? It seems to me you're using the level 76 Hunter's Mark (rank 5, 300 RAP)*.
I would suggest checking both Hunter's Mark and any other de/buff or setting related to level.
This would probably affect your other values as well.


*With rank 5, the values work out to be a ~0.47 DPS per RAP - much more in line with what we would expect to see.


EDIT: Apparently a bit late. What surprised me somewhat is exactly how bad Piercing Shots is looking. Looks like it might be in dire need of some tuning.

Yeah, it appears Improved Hunter's Mark really is godawful(I updated the value above.) I think those points would either be switched to Improved Arcane Shot, or more likely, Efficiency. Piercing Shots appears to just be plain horrible. I would probably grab Aimed Shot and Silencing Shot before spending points there.

P.S.
Keep in mind the values I listed fluctuate as you spend points on other talents. They're all inter-connected, but those values should still give a pretty decent idea of how good each talent is.

It has the wrong level values for the ranks of HM.. I'll fix that.

The only thing it states is that it can only be applied to your own armor, but since the item itself is not Bind on Pickup anyone can get his hands at it, making it available to all players regardless of being leatherworkers or not.

In the gear screenshots he's got explosive shot and Wyvyrn sting on his bars, I"m going to go ahead and say he's survival. His AP and crit that isn't out of line with what you see in 25 man raids as SV or MM.
In the killshot he's BM

The SS with the damage meters does not show the same hot bars. Actually it shows Intimidation on the bars which would support the BM spec.


Would be nice to see his dmg meters as SV spec though for comparison.

you can pop bestial wrath, immediately use readiness so it starts the cooldown early, then pop Bestiawl wrath again just after it expires, giving you about 36 seconds of BW, then you have to wait close to a minute as you said, but by using readiness you still get the 2nd BW with less down time on readiness (about 18 seconds.)