Some quick napkin math on Rapid Recuperation based on up time of rapid fire and % mana costs as follows: (dps time without RF) * 100% mana cost + (dps time with RF up) * 40% mana cost

Without Efficiency
No Rapid Killing, No Readiness (15 seconds of up time and 300 second cooldown = 5% uptime)
(100% - 5%) * 100% + (5% * 40%) = 97% or a 3% mana cost reduction for 2/2 Rapid Recup. (1.5% per point)

Rapid Killing, No Readiness (15 seconds of up time and 180 second cooldown = 8.33% uptime)
(100% - 8.33%) * 100% + (8.33% * 40%) = 95% or a 5% mana cost reduction for 2/2 RR (2.5% per point)

No Rapid Killing, Readiness (30 seconds of up time and 300 second cooldown = 10% uptime)
(100% - 10%) * 100% + (10% * 40%) = 94% or a 6% mana cost reduction for 2/2 RR (3% per point)

Rapid Killing, Readiness (30 seconds of up time and 180 second cooldown = 16.66% uptime)
(100% - 16.66%) * 100% + (16.66% * 40%) = 90% or a 10% mana cost reduction for 2/2 RR (5% per point)


If mana cost reductions are additive then the above numbers stay the same for RR with Efficiency. If they are multiplative the values change slightly.

Isn't this entire discussion useless as readiness does NOT reset BW/TBW???

It does since the last build. It's mentioned in a reply a page or 2 back. I've tested it myself as well.

When you use rapid fire with readiness like that the cooldown starts 15 seconds into the 30 second readiness, which is equavalent to adding 15 seconds to the cooldown, so 3 and 4 become:

No Rapid Killing, Readiness (30 seconds of up time and 315 second cooldown = 9.5% uptime)
(100% - 9.5%) * 100% + (9.5% * 40%) = 94.3% or a 5.7% mana cost reduction for 2/2 RR (2.9% per point)

Rapid Killing, Readiness (30 seconds of up time and 180 second cooldown = 15.4% uptime)
(100% - 15.4%) * 100% + (15.4% * 40%) = 90.8% or a 9.2% mana cost reduction for 2/2 RR (4.6% per point)

</pedantry>

Edit:
Seeing those numbers freaked me out a little. With AotV allowing a direct mana drain to dps loss conversion for hunters, it's possible to convert mana related stats/talents directly into dps. I'd done this for RR+RK, and they'd ended up in the sort of 0.3% per point range, along with IHM and piercing shots (slightly better, but only by 2-4dps). What freaks me out is, I never even considered that there was any question about taking efficiency in a MM raid spec. I've now tested it in my lil simulator, and while the simulation was only a brief one, i got efficiency to be a 0.15% dps increase per point :o

Shandara, does the spreadsheet do AotV yet? I'd be really interested to see if you got something similar, or if anyone has done/could do any PTR/Beta raiding without efficiency for test purposes

This got me thinking about Rapid Fire and Readiness and Rapid Killing.

Like TBW it's limited by the fact that although readiness resets the cooldown, it is precisely because it resets the cooldown that you can't really 'add up' the durations when you use readiness.

Assume 0/2 Rapid Killing and 1/1 Readiness:

0:00 - Rapid Fire
0:15 - Readiness, Rapid Fire again
3:15 - Readiness off CD, Rapid Fire again
6:15 - Readiness off CD, Rapid Fire again
<etc>

So because Rapid Fire has a 5 minute cooldown it will never get off CD before Readiness has. So from 15 seconds every 5 minutes you go down to 15 seconds every 3 minutes. Or from 5% uptime to 8,3%.

Now 1/2 Rapid Killing, 1/1 Readiness is the same because the cooldown of Rapid Fire is 4 minutes and still longer than Readiness' 3 minutes.

Only with 2/2 Rapid Killing do we get in a more favourable situation:

0:00 - Readiness, Rapid Fire
3:00 - Rapid Fire
3:15 - Readiness, Rapid Fire
<etc>

So you get 2 Rapid Fires in 3:15, or 15,4% Uptime.

Like I said... Napkin math =) Obviously better (more accurate math) is nice and so thank you ElginRoko and Shandara for improving on my math.

Just to make it obvious at this point though, IF a MM specced hunter takes 2/2 Rapid Killing to syncronize Rapid Fire's cooldown with Readiness' cooldown then Rapid Recuperation is actually a better investment (more then double the return, 2% vs. 4.6%) on a point for point basis then Efficiency.

EDIT: must learn to read.

That's basically what I said in my post above, Luringshadow.

Made a small addition to my sheet to calculate the time spent in Viper. With the current version of Viper you spent a very short time indeed using it. Especially raid-buffed.

EDIT: Poster removed post I replied to

Looking at the times that you would fire both that you had listed that's correct. Just the order that they were listed kind of threw me off, my apologies. Also it would be Readiness that is available at 3:00. I was just trying to clairify.

EDIT: Basically there is a 15 second difference of when the cool downs end (since the second RF will happen 15 seconds after the Readiness was used). You would wait the 15 seconds for the second one (RF) becomes available and then use them both. We are both getting at the same thing, but your order was off above.

Well, since you use Rapid Fire and Readiness together, they'd both get off CD at the same time (roughly, what with that GCD Blizzard seems to like) as they both have the same 3 minute CD.

EDIT: Ah, I get what you're saying, i.e. using readiness during the prev RF to shorten the CD.

I'm interested in why FI hasn't gone raid-wide like almost every other buff in the game. Has anyone posted on the rationale behind this? Does the party based FI overwrite Sanctified Retribution?

FI takes a serious step back in value when a Retri is brought along compared to now. If it was raidwide it would become more important. Heck, I wouldn't be annoyed if they changed it to 2% like Sanc but made it raidwide. Seems like what they are doing to everything else. Ah well... Shouldn't be a biggie, if it become important enough then I think BM Hunters have other, and more serious issues.

Well, the Spore Cloud couldn't really conflic very well since it is also a DPS ability. Cutting it out would lead to making Spore Bats directly worthless, as opposed to merely redundant. So the ability should always be useable, it is just a question if it actually does apply the ArP. And I got the impression that that wasn't what you had tested? Am I correct in making that assumption?

Anyway, if it truly does apply the ArP (I won't discount that it might), then it might just be a possible solution, Cunning pets aren't going to be such huge losses for Surv and MM. But damn... Could they make are more boring pet for us to have viable? But at least diversity... gotta think on the diversity.

What's the spec that does Sanctified Retribution? Is it always on, or periodically proc'ing based on some mechanic? The reason I ask is that if any pally can lay it down, there's 3 points that can be spent elsewhere, especially since Invigoration is mostly worthless in a raid. A 1% damage increase for only party members seems incredibly lackluster.

I only tested whether the debuff conflicted with a few other major/minor debuffs. I didn't test whether the debuff actually works as intended - if it doesn't, then it's a bug and needs to be reported. Conflicting debuffs will over-write one another, rather than co-exist and one or more fail to work.

Here's a link to the ability itself. Spore Cloud - Spell - World of Warcraft

I have spoken with him, that 6.1k dps was 100% posted as BM, and not MM or SV, the MM hunter in the raid is the guy coming in with 5k+ in the number 2 position. There really is absolutely no way for a SV hunter to put up 6k on patch on the ptr these days. Its just a terrible spec.

Just been and checked the mana numbers for rapid recuperation, it's multiplicative with the modifiers from efficiency and master marksman, though those 2 stack additively with each other. To put it equationways: final cost = base cost * (1 - efficiency - master marksman) * (1 - rapid recuperation)

I assume it also procs AotV mana too? It would be interesting to try it out in an AoE environment and see how much mana you get back. You should get the three ticks plus the AoE damage too right?.

It used to be 20% AP every tick (60% AP scalar total), with higher base damage for every tick also. It was a reduction of damage in all aspects. It's still better than Arcane shot, but it does around 40% of the damage that it used to do.

It hasn't been 20% for every tick since I've been on beta which has been about 2 months. It was 20% for the first tick, and 1/4 of that for each additional tick, for a total of 30%. I don't even think it was 20% for each tick when they added TnT and all that. I don't think anybody is making arguments based on those numbers... those are ancient.

Everybody flipped out when they read Wowhead saying that its 8% and 1/4 of that for each tick still, which would only be 12%... which is not the case.

It seems a bit bugged atm in regard to AotV. Explosive Shot is proccing AotV 4 times per shot, no matter how many targets it hit (even 1). So... right now it's giving me 564 * 4 mana = 2256 mana back.

double post.

I've never seen a beta version that did not have equal ticks for each of the single target ticks. Admittedly I don't log into beta often (it's bloody boring). However I have seen the tooltip change a few times, due to confusion of how the 3 ticks worked. A lot of people thought the AoE ticks were also the damage of the second and third tick.

Ferocious Inspiration officially might be raidwide!


WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Ferocious Inspiration Raidwide?