The only solid information is that Disengage will be off the GCD (already known, I believe), and that it was (will be?) reduced to 5% base mana. I think it was posted back a few pages that they're working on new technology to make it function better.
Hopefully they decide to do something about Haste that works in our favor, now that they've acknowledged that we hate it. I'm kind of annoyed that GC completely skipped over the issue of trap trigger radius.
The main thing I noticed (and haven't read elsewhere) is that they plan to eventually make Disengage throw you back the proper distance regardless of Crippling/Hamstring. That change, plus the no-GCD change, makes the skill infinitely more useful than the current version.
I think Blizzard acknowledges that there are a lot of glaring problems with the class but can't exactly fix a lot of them without stepping over some arbitrary line they've instituted to the fundamental design of the Hunter class.
Going through a lot of the more PvP-centric discussions, the general consensus is Hunters have no survivability centralized around the fact that you can quite literally run at them with little to no threat to your own safety due to significantly reducing their damage output and tools. It's like the dead zone problem all over again.
On one hand the Disengage changes to ensure its consistency are good, but they really don't fix a slew of underline issues. They gut our melee reduction abilities (negative base dodge? really?) and give every other Melee class an ability on an equal or shorter cooldown to negate the benefit of disengage.
It's a band-aid fix on a bigger issue but at least they're trying. Is it a good start? Hell ya, it is.
This might have been answered, maybe not. Has Blizz posted anything about our hit gear affecting our pets hit? I thought I saw a blue post a few weeks ago saying something about warlock and hunters hit gear will work on pets. Anyone heard anything more about this? I can not find that post, anyone know more about that?
This might have been answered, maybe not. Has Blizz posted anything about our hit gear affecting our pets hit? I thought I saw a blue post a few weeks ago saying something about warlock and hunters hit gear will work on pets. Anyone heard anything more about this? I can not find any info.
Also thanks for the good info in the thread.
I'm pretty confident that the +hit to pets is already on the current beta/ptr. I saw it mentioned a few back that aside from dodges, pets just weren't missing now.
I haven't tested this so someone else will have to confirm. I'm also unsure of whether or not the +hit from Focused Aim carries over to pets or not.
The only solid information is that Disengage will be off the GCD (already known, I believe), and that it was (will be?) reduced to 5% base mana. I think it was posted back a few pages that they're working on new technology to make it function better.
Hopefully they decide to do something about Haste that works in our favor, now that they've acknowledged that we hate it. I'm kind of annoyed that GC completely skipped over the issue of trap trigger radius.
I am straight up stoked that I actually managed to get some responses for us. I think Gonk and others have said things way more concisely, but the fire brings out the best in our little crab apparently.
All in all, I want to see if I can keep the discussion going, like I tried. I know its bleak a best, but fuck it, I got us answers to the damn haste question. Finally.
Actually thats as a BM hunter and that guy is a hoss, hes over 6k rap and 44 crit in that raid. Its pretty outrageous what bm can do.
I'd really like to know what people are seeing as the top dps spec post 3.0 considering top SW gear for a hunter at 70. I'm assuming it will continue to be BM considering what I've seen from raiding at 80, but MM can put up some serious numbers with huge stats so I'm not sure. Thats also assuming the other specs dont get buffed or bm gets nerfed significantly tonight with this patch. And on top of all that, how exactly are yall gonna be spending your points in bm, I was thinking about something like 46/15 but I'm not sure. I really need to get that Wotlk spread sheet and get it working, I hate not having excel.
I really hope the AI(pet) build won't be on top again. Pet doing the other half of you damage and other half is 1 button macro smash.. woho! The other builds that at least before stacking haste required to use more complicated shot rotation were far behind. But at least the new talents look more promising, I'm going MM for sure, no matter how good the BOT build is gonna be, since MM has been my favorite all the time. Since release -> BT/hyjal and after a while as BM I was lucky enough to be our Survival which was the closest thing to be a MM.
Too bad they haven't yet put up a marksman talent that would boost your shots a lot, remove pet, and add some kind of better stunning possibility to your shots I hate pet!
I am straight up stoked that I actually managed to get some responses for us. I think Gonk and others have said things way more concisely, but the fire brings out the best in our little crab apparently.
All in all, I want to see if I can keep the discussion going, like I tried. I know its bleak a best, but fuck it, I got us answers to the damn haste question. Finally.
Basically the haste answer boiled down to 'we know haste sucks for hunters, but we're slapping it all over hunter gear so you have to go cherry picking the pieces with better itemization. It's the new itemization 'idiot check'.
As far as hunter vs melee class PvP concerns go, a lot of the issues could be alleviated simply by letting hunters fire their shots in melee range. That would at least put them on the level of all the other ranged classes in the game. Any smart caster knows they can snare a hunter then start spamming instant casts in melee range, with the hunter completely unable to return fire. This would also take some pressure off the hunter wasting GCDs trying to get out of melee range so they can shoot their target again.
I'm pretty confident that the +hit to pets is already on the current beta/ptr. I saw it mentioned a few back that aside from dodges, pets just weren't missing now.
I haven't tested this so someone else will have to confirm. I'm also unsure of whether or not the +hit from Focused Aim carries over to pets or not.
Just spent about 6 minutes straight on a test dummy on the PTR to confirm this. Level 70 dummy, level 70 cat, I have 3/3 Focused Aim and am a Draenei so I'm actually ~15 over hit cap with my 95 rating. ^^;
Uh, miss rate on a same-level target is 5%, so your hit rating covers it already. If you want to test whether Focused Aim applies to the pet you need to get nekkid first.
What's the spec that does Sanctified Retribution? Is it always on, or periodically proc'ing based on some mechanic? The reason I ask is that if any pally can lay it down, there's 3 points that can be spent elsewhere, especially since Invigoration is mostly worthless in a raid. A 1% damage increase for only party members seems incredibly lackluster.
That is provided by the Retribution-spec Paladin as it is a fairly deep talent that no one else will ever pick up. Also, it is 'always on' when the retribution aura is active.
I really hope the AI(pet) build won't be on top again. Pet doing the other half of you damage and other half is 1 button macro smash.. woho! The other builds that at least before stacking haste required to use more complicated shot rotation were far behind. But at least the new talents look more promising, I'm going MM for sure, no matter how good the BOT build is gonna be, since MM has been my favorite all the time. Since release -> BT/hyjal and after a while as BM I was lucky enough to be our Survival which was the closest thing to be a MM.
Too bad they haven't yet put up a marksman talent that would boost your shots a lot, remove pet, and add some kind of better stunning possibility to your shots I hate pet!
So reroll a mage. Or lock. Or any other caster, as we aren't them - "wannabe mages with the guns", as sometimes we were called.
Hunter is pet class and it should stay that way, no matter what spec. I'm for one fine with BM being top dps spec, tho I don't see nothing wrong with all specs being competitive in that matter. PreTBC times, when pets often weren't even summoned were the worst ones and changing that was the best thing that Blizz've done. Making BM less boring (but I don't think it's more boring than current destro or healadins for example) is just a minor issue.
We do put a lot of haste on gear. Part of that is because we don't have a huge canvas to work with. We can't put a ton of Strength and Spirit on hunter gear. Also, keep in mind that we aren't trying to make the best possible gear for you. We want you to toss out less optimal pieces for more optimal pieces. Finally, keep in mind that gear is one of the things we use to let players demonstrate mastery of the game. Making the decision of whether that new ring or belt is an upgrade should require a little bit of thought. That's what makes it interesting. But I will bring up the issue of haste and we can talk it over again.
Heh... this is both uplifting and depressing at the same time.
They want us to gear correctly. That's easy enough, avoid Haste to your best ability. They don't make perfect gear for us. That's ok with me as long as I can pick stuff that is better. Luckily I can it seems. But when these things roll all over our set gear it becomes silly.
I quote again:
Finally, keep in mind that gear is one of the things we use to let players demonstrate mastery of the game.
Ahhh, so the good Hunter knows to stay far away from our setgear?
I know that GC is hardly the Hunter dev, but if this is what they intend then I'm dumbfounded. They are deliberately making our setgear crappy, and hope we will see that non-setgear is better? How about all those non-theorycrafter Hunters out there? Are they just supposed to be gimped compared to other classes because they don't know our set isn't very good? Why not just remove the Hunter sets and be done with it?
At least she is bringing the issue up with the others.
The other issues have been pointed out a lot better by others.
Ahhh, so the good Hunter knows to stay far away from our setgear?
I know that GC is hardly the Hunter dev, but if this is what they intend then I'm dumbfounded. They are deliberately making our setgear crappy, and hope we will see that non-setgear is better? How about all those non-theorycrafter Hunters out there? Are they just supposed to be gimped compared to other classes because they don't know our set isn't very good? Why not just remove the Hunter sets and be done with it?
Most of the set pieces I've seen so far are fairly low level, so I'm not sure it's fair to say that "Set pieces are bad". T4 gear on any of my characters was less than optimal, and I think it's designed so that there is a clear upgrade path. I think GC even touches on this when she points out that hunters really only scale with a few stats (she mentions strength and spirit as two stats no hunter would want) so to make higher tier gear better, or to make non-set pieces better, they don't have a whole lot of changes they can make.
And of course, this whole thing is exacerbated by Blizzard's itemization formula that penalizes stat stacking on a piece of gear. If hunters scale best with agi then int, crit and AP, it would make sense to just stack all gear with those stats. Adding a fifth stat, like haste, doesn't cost that much in the grand scheme of things because the first point of haste is worth dramatically less in item budget than the last point of any other stat that is already on the gear. Even if haste only contributes to one fraction of damage (autoshot) based on itemization rules, at different ilvls, it may be basically free in the item budget.
Now, if they're still putting tons of haste on T8/T9 set gear, then I'm completely wrong.
Most of the set pieces I've seen so far are fairly low level, so I'm not sure it's fair to say that "Set pieces are bad". T4 gear on any of my characters was less than optimal, and I think it's designed so that there is a clear upgrade path. I think GC even touches on this when she points out that hunters really only scale with a few stats (she mentions strength and spirit as two stats no hunter would want) so to make higher tier gear better, or to make non-set pieces better, they don't have a whole lot of changes they can make.
And of course, this whole thing is exacerbated by Blizzard's itemization formula that penalizes stat stacking on a piece of gear. If hunters scale best with agi then int, crit and AP, it would make sense to just stack all gear with those stats. Adding a fifth stat, like haste, doesn't cost that much in the grand scheme of things because the first point of haste is worth dramatically less in item budget than the last point of any other stat that is already on the gear. Even if haste only contributes to one fraction of damage (autoshot) based on itemization rules, at different ilvls, it may be basically free in the item budget.
Now, if they're still putting tons of haste on T8/T9 set gear, then I'm completely wrong.
That dosen't make any sense.
Point 1 as far as I know there are non set items which I can chosse instead of T7 whith no haste (I would improve while avoinding the Set).
Point 2 T8 Should have a higher Itemlevel. With that a higher budget of Attributes. So the difference should be in that and not in T8 avoiding haste.
All of this has the result that the Hunter will avoid the set and not step through it and change from T7 -> T8. So what's the point of designing the set then?
- Blues stated that pure DPS classes should be putting out the most DPS of all classes in a raid. Given the same level of of gear and the same buffs, a Warlock/Rogue/Hunter/Mage should be at the top, within a narrow margin of each other (barring and special circumstance) ahead of the other multi-functional classes.
Link please because from what I have read, Blizz has stated the exact opposite. In their eyes, a hybrid class should be able to put out just as much DPS as a pure DPS class. They have stated this many times already.
Point 1 as far as I know there are non set items which I can chosse instead of T7 whith no haste (I would improve while avoinding the Set).
Point 2 T8 Should have a higher Itemlevel. With that a higher budget of Attributes. So the difference should be in that and not in T8 avoiding haste.
All of this has the result that the Hunter will avoid the set and not step through it and change from T7 -> T8. So what's the point of designing the set then?
T4 for holy priests is terrible. Bad itemization, bad set bonuses. Just terrible. At the T5 level, there are several set pieces that are better than their non-set equivalents, and the 2pc bonus is really good so priests are motivated to pick it up. At the T6 level, pre-Sunwell, the set pieces with the exception of the legs were best in slot.
Now, I know this from theorycraft and reading these and other forums, but I guarantee that there are thousands of Kara-level priests out there wearing T4. Either it's the best they could get, or they don't know better, and for them it works. As a SWP raider, it would be really easy for me to say "T4 is so bad, they should have just not designed it" but as I'm not the only type of player they're designing the game for, I think that's a bit unfair.
Sets look good together and motivate people to complete them even if they're not very good. Considering how fast a lot of SWP guilds will be moving past Naxx, I think that looking at T7 level gear and complaining that nobody will ever want sets is missing the point.
From what I gathered from GC's post, Blizzard knows that haste isn't great for hunters. They've intentionally designed the gear we've seen so far to be non-optimal, so that there is more oomph when we move into higher tiers of sets. Additionally, I'm sure there are hunters who will end up with set pieces that have haste merely because you're guaranteed to get a token each week, and there is no guarantee you'll see the T7-level non-haste chest, gloves, etc. Blizzard doesn't care if top end raiders/theorycrafters skip the low-level tier gear because there are thousands of people who will pick it up.
And as I said earlier, I think that if they're in the same boat at T9 (where no one wants the set gear because other gear is designed so much better) they will make some changes.
My biggest concern is that it's flawed design. If you have to make early raid gear crap to make the later raid gear look good, then maybe the class isn't scaling as well as it should?
That people will use the stuff isn't an excuse to make it subpar.
A lot of the hunter T4 set is god-awful too (helmet being an exception), and Karazhan mail gear in general was awful to the point of blues being better, so I wore blues until I could get badge gear or leather etc. I'd rather not see a repeat of that.
My biggest concern is that it's flawed design. If you have to make early raid gear crap to make the later raid gear look good, then maybe the class isn't scaling as well as it should?
That people will use the stuff isn't an excuse to make it subpar.
A lot of the hunter T4 set is god-awful too (helmet being an exception), and Karazhan mail gear in general was awful to the point of blues being better, so I wore blues until I could get badge gear or leather etc. I'd rather not see a repeat of that.
As far as the gear itemization goes, it's been done this way in TBC relatively successfully, so it's not likely to change for Wrath.
The Karazhan to blues analogy was valid for all classes, save *maybe* tanks. Until Karazhan gear was buffed into absurdity, blues were better for every class for several slots. Tier pieces were trash, even accounting for set bonuses.
The progression that is being aimed for roughly seems to be Green/Blue "Leveling Gear" -> Well Itemized Blues -> Poorly Itemized Purples -> Better Itemized Purples -> Best Itemized Purples.
Personally, I think it makes early/mid-game interesting by being able to pick and choose from a wider gear selection and easily identify poor players through gear choices, rather than continually repeat the dull transition from BT-T6 to Sunwell pieces.
It's called Bloodlust, not Heroism. What kind of pansy name is Heroism, anyway?
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12/13 [25] Heroic - Recruiting exceptional players.
My biggest concern is that it's flawed design. If you have to make early raid gear crap to make the later raid gear look good, then maybe the class isn't scaling as well as it should?
That people will use the stuff isn't an excuse to make it subpar.
A lot of the hunter T4 set is god-awful too (helmet being an exception), and Karazhan mail gear in general was awful to the point of blues being better, so I wore blues until I could get badge gear or leather etc. I'd rather not see a repeat of that.
And another big problem is that as far as I know they scale our dps in T-Sets. If those sets are not the best choice for us, the whole dps scaling is useless.
The Karazhan to blues analogy was valid for all classes, save *maybe* tanks. Until Karazhan gear was buffed into absurdity, blues were better for every class for several slots. Tier pieces were trash, even accounting for set bonuses.
That's not true. For my Hunter it was nearly no difference. More HP, some mp5 but basically the AP and Crit was the same. Finally with the badget items I got buffed.
I just don't understand what they mean by not having enough stats to stack or what have you. We need agi/stam/int, as well as hit/crit/armor pen. That seems like its enough stats to put on our gear that would make us better. I can understand them putting some haste, but it seems that 90% of all items seen have some haste on it, which is kind of disheartening. I hope what some people said about it being only the first "tier" of gear released in wrath are like this, I unfortunately won't believe it til I see it.
10/09/08, 2:28 AM
I hate pet!
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