I don't see Longevity being worth it without the BW glyph, and losing GftT will hurt majorly. The +hit from Animal Handler seems entirely useless. I'm leaning towards something like this.
On a different note - I've ran some heroics on beta yesterday, and I've found it very difficult to actually cast Rabid or Call of the Wild. My cat seems to be perma locked in GCD and that with Rabid not really being autocast makes it quite difficult to time and use. Anyone has encountered that? I'm using a small workaround at the moment - pulling pet back, in same moment spamming Rabid key and sending it back asap. Works really well, but you loose ~2seconds of dps time, not to mention extra micro on pet.
I've noticed the same, I tried macroing Call of the Wild to Bestial Wrath but it hardly ever actually worked due to 'ability not ready' Which I'm assuming is the pet being in GCD.
It makes it easier to trap. You can trap the mob pre-pull without having to gain aggro on the target to drag it through your pre-placed trap. It also makes it easier to trap the mob in a "safe" area, far away from things like Swipe/Consecrate/Searing Totem. Sometimes the old method of trapping will still be better, but whatever. You can still double trap mobs with Freezing Arrow.
Pre-trapping, doesn't that just lose you CC time spent on the mobs running towards the tank? And doesn't pre-trapping mean they all run for you? Seems like a dangerous way of doing it. Especially if there are more than one caster (and you are trapping one of them). Then you still need to go LOS.
There will certainly be cases where Freezing Arrow is a nice ability, but I have a hard time believing there are cases where only it can handle the situation. Where LOS trapping a mob with Distracting or normal shot is not possible at all.
Overall, that is still pretty weak for our 80 skill (compared to what the other classes get is is definately one of the lower ranked ones). The horrible part is what is is a replacement for...
Pre-trapping, doesn't that just lose you CC time spent on the mobs running towards the tank? And doesn't pre-trapping mean they all run for you? Seems like a dangerous way of doing it. Especially if there are more than one caster (and you are trapping one of them). Then you still need to go LOS.
There will certainly be cases where Freezing Arrow is a nice ability, but I have a hard time believing there are cases where only it can handle the situation. Where LOS trapping a mob with Distracting or normal shot is not possible at all.
Overall, that is still pretty weak for our 80 skill (compared to what the other classes get is is definately one of the lower ranked ones). The horrible part is what is is a replacement for...
Your concerns about pre trapping being dangerous are not exactly justified, considering we have FD, and now we get rid of the pesky spell hit induced resists. Actually, the mobs coming for you are quite a nice way of trapping more than one mob if need be. [e] I think an MD + Freezing Arrow could be interesting; never got to try if it works on the beta [/e]
However, I agree, it's a very, very, very underwhelming ability for level 80. Compared to how useful Kill Command turned out at level 70 (well, at least for a BM spec), it feels like it should have been a level 20 skill. Either Camouflage or Black Arrow would have been a lot better suited for that 'level 80 spell' slot, but I guess it's all written in stone now.
Originally Posted by XI-
In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire. If this is too difficult BWL was still there last I checked, so go have at it for some practice.
Is anyone else concerned about the implementation of Freezing Arrow? According to sources at Blizzcon, Freezing Arrow was introduced to help with instances, so that people wouldn't have to wait for the hunter to lay down a trap and kite the mob to it. But... this seems to break the cooldown that is the very reason that hunters have to set up their traps in advance.
Am I missing something?
Trapping skills are one of the things that set good hunters above the average huntard, at least in PvE. It takes real skill and knowledge of mobs and instances to consistently pull and trap. You have to know which mobs needed LOS pulling, where to place traps, and have a good sense of timing (as referred to by Disargeria) to pre-trap to let the timer run out as much as possible before the pull. The above average hunter has no problems laying a trap, misdirecting to the tank, and then pulling one of the mobs over to the trap. Most of the hunters reading this forum are likely to be above average in skill, and I'm sure you've been complimented in your trapping during a 5 man run at one point - perhaps even had a horror story shared with you about the last hunter they took along who was so horrible at trapping.
The freezing arrow obviates the need for any of this skill or knowledge in trapping.
This disappoints me, it was something that set us apart from other classes, made us unique. Now that freezing arrow is basically just a bastardized form of a caster's CC, why not go all the way and let us shoot ALL our traps? Have the 80 skill be that, the ability to attach any trap to your shot and fire it from range. That would give us some fun mechanics and utility instead of one lackluster hybridization that negates the requirement for skill in playing.
Against melee mobs, the time spent moving towards the player can be counted as CC. As it stands right now, laying down a trap before the pull and allowing the target to be trapped multiple times is far superior to Freezing Arrow, which seems contradictory to the intended purpose. It does seem extremely underwhelming now that we know its intent, and I feel that it is too late in beta to change. If the developers had been clearer in their intentions, we could have provided appropriate feedback to avoid this.
It seems to me that a really simple solution would be to just increase the freezing duration on Freezing Trap. Considering how easy it is for other classes to CC mobs in instances, and for extended periods of time, Freezing Arrow would make so much more sense if it lasted 45 seconds or so in PvE. Perhaps they are keeping the duration short now because supposedly we'll be able to damage them while frozen someday?
Your concerns about pre trapping being dangerous are not exactly justified, considering we have FD, and now we get rid of the pesky spell hit induced resists. Actually, the mobs coming for you are quite a nice way of trapping more than one mob if need be. [e] I think an MD + Freezing Arrow could be interesting; never got to try if it works on the beta [/e]
I think you are misunderstanding me here.
I'm not worried about the Hunter's survivability, but about the tank getting the mobs. If they are targeting me then there is more of a chance that one or two might run lose. If I then FD (because my trap is on CD as I freezing arrowed that caster back at the pull) we have a recipie for chaos. Good groups recover and don't die, bad ones wipe or suffer a few deaths. But the endresult is the same, the Hunter is to blame for the failure.
Personally I don't want to risk that, and hence I will only use Freezing Arrow in a very few select cases. Otherwise it is Distracting Shot -> Freezing Trap.
And you didn't comment on the fac that if I send my Freezing Arrow at the target (and cause the mobs to come storming for me) then I waste that running time as CC. Currently I often stand at max range to make sure my target runs for the longest possible time while I can still shoot Skull. The longer it runs the more time it is CCed. If trapped right away, with no more threat than what my trap provides, it will be a risky mob when it breaks free. A single heal from the healer and it will target him/her, not me. Very risky with a Charger or Caster. Currently I can last a few traps before I have to apply more threat.
Serpent sting appears to use your RAP of when you initially hit with it - and not when you refresh it with Chimera Shot. I tested this with Call of the Wild (pet), and Hunter's Mark. For instance, I could pop call of the wild, serpent sting, and the dot damage with this ap will continue after call of the wild fades, as long as I keep refreshing that sting with Chimera Shot.
Sounds like a bug, given how they got rid of this with the old scorpid pet and I believe they are changing similar behavior with lifebloom for instance...
Indeed, I can't comment on how the trap cooldown fits into this, because I have very little experience about my hunter in the beta. I tried to steer clear of the Alliance quests, to avoid spoiling my leveling and played my Horde DK mostly, for a shot at lore I won't likely have the time to see on live. However, that's besides the point.
But, as far as leveling dungeons are concerned (and I'm expecting heroics follow this suite, considering how ridiculously easy people seem to paint them out), the first mob or two were usually dead before saps and traps expired. Now, this still does pose a problem for the cases where traps are broken early (frost nova, multishot, overzealous warlock, and so forth). However, getting a hunter that doesn't wipe the party because he can't place a bloody trap will make heroics somewhat more entertaining.
As for tanks not being able to get aggro, I'm fairly confident that the simple act of feigning death will transfer the proximity aggro onto the tank. Again, it's a nice tool for the toolbox, but I'd rather use it to trap that loose mob munching on the healer than for what it's marketed now, anyway. And I'd rather we get a less situational skill at level 80.
Originally Posted by XI-
In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire. If this is too difficult BWL was still there last I checked, so go have at it for some practice.
I'm mostly concerned about that it's not possible to pre-trap with freezing arrow, and wish (Again) that they would fix the disparity between trap cd and duration.
That being said, I believe the new distracting shot will make it easier for us to control fights, making it possible to easily peel mobs of tank/others and into a fresh trap.
Last edited by Griffen : 10/11/08 at 1:44 PM.
Reason: Grammar?
As for tanks not being able to get aggro, I'm fairly confident that the simple act of feigning death will transfer the proximity aggro onto the tank. Again, it's a nice tool for the toolbox, but I'd rather use it to trap that loose mob munching on the healer than for what it's marketed now, anyway. And I'd rather we get a less situational skill at level 80.
The tank and aggro problem would be more in the mold of the healer then grabbing aggro, the tank then has to deal with whatever is aggroed and what might be running for the healer, now that the Hunter was so nice as to FD. Anyway, this is only a potential problem, but one I fear we might hear a lot about. People seem to relish in their Huntard stories.
I wouldn't even use the Freezing Arrow for the mob on the healer. At that point it would be inadequate with the traveltime and arming time. If the healer is standing still (which surprisingly few actually do when they get attacked), then the trap might pop and save bacon. But there ia also the chance that the traveltime + armingtime is enough to kill the healer.
No, I would rather do as a pull and Distract -> Freezing Trap (we have to assume it is up or else Freezing Arrow won't be useable either). That should give me the time to drop the trap and then have it arm by the time the mob reaches me. Well, in most cases at least. If not, then at least I have taken a fall for the group, giving them the time needed to recover, something that is quite a bit harder with no healer than no Hunter.
I fail to see the application of Freezing Arrow in anything but very gimmicky fights (Priestess Dalrissa fights could see some potential use of it). Anything that involves threat and aggro is more easily handled with the old traps.
The benefit of freezing in 5 mans is that it doesn't require the hunter to be the top person in threat on the mob which while easy, is fairly dangerous. You can also just shoot it right as the tank pulls or misdirect a multi shot of your trapped mob and whatever else, then freeze your mob there instead of back by you and the nervous healer.
The change to distracting shot actually makes it extremely easy to pull a mob into a trap. Distracting shot now functions as a temporary taunt, you get agro on the mob for the duration of the distraction shot debuff then it reverts to whoever had threat. So it's much easier to force pull a mob into a trap now, and the short cooldown on distracting shot also means that if for some reason you can't get it into the trap in time, you can just distract again pretty soon (I have noticed that when palis shield pull it makes it difficult to get the mob in on the first distract sometimes). Right now the only time I use the freezing arrow is when there's a caster mob that doesn't pull properly with the others, I'll toss a freeze trap on it to keep it from attacking the healer until the tank has a chance to properly deal with it. But with the way trap cooldowns work, it will never be a full replacement for pulling mobs into traps. Using freezing arrow all the time also has the problem that if the group has multiple casters and there isn't a convenient LOS spot, it's usually best for the tank to just charge into the fray and tank where the mobs are. If you use freezing arrow in those situations expect your trap to get broken pretty quick.
I'm looking forward to them fixing traps back to being able to take some damage, I hope it doesn't take long. Right now the way the pali cleave feature works, I'll often end up with the mob I'm trying to trap breaking out of the trap immediately because when the pali pulls with a shield, it takes so long to get my mob into the trap that it gets hit by the cleave (I don't fully understand the pali cleave mechanic but this is what we've figured out is happening). I regularly run instances with a pali tank and we've had to adjust our CC style to work around the problem for now. Of course as his gear has gotten better we haven't been bothering to CC much at all, but when we first started doing heroics his gear was a little iffy and being able to CC was kinda important.
I'm not worried about the Hunter's survivability, but about the tank getting the mobs. If they are targeting me then there is more of a chance that one or two might run lose. If I then FD (because my trap is on CD as I freezing arrowed that caster back at the pull) we have a recipie for chaos. Good groups recover and don't die, bad ones wipe or suffer a few deaths. But the endresult is the same, the Hunter is to blame for the failure.
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I think I AM misunderstanding. It sounds like you pull to trap and they all are on you? Why would you do that? You let tank pull (body, ranged, whatever) and you simply distracting shot them off and drag to your trap. One target... The new DS being a taunt will make that even easier, but I've never had a problem with the current one. That is of course unless you have a pally tank, and then why are you trapping in the first place? Never had a pally ask for cc.
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As to the pet (cat) cooldowns, and rabid. Yeah I've had the same problem. Even trying to manually click rabid when it's up, it often will still tell me it's not ready yet while the pet is at full focus doing nothing. Also claw doesn't seem to work at all! (and no I didn't have bite at the time). Rake was the only one auto casting, but would not if I tried to macro rabid with something like SS, in which is never went off and burned the pet CD constantly.
This is pretty broken and is going to limit our dps big time if it goes live like this. Especially those of us that are continuing to raid until the expansion. (have one tue night!)
Rabid does not autocast unless the pet is being attacked. That's intentional for some stupid reason, confirmed by GC. I haven't had any problems getting it to cast or stack by putting it in my shot macro along with Kill Command.
"I've always wondered what it'd be like to have a prehensile penis, but you don't see me shitting up this thread with my idea." - Kaubel
Rabid does not autocast unless the pet is being attacked. That's intentional for some stupid reason, confirmed by GC. I haven't had any problems getting it to cast or stack by putting it in my shot macro along with Kill Command.
I saw it mentioned by the new guy (starts with an M, can't remember the name) but I haven't seen GC comment on it yet...
Rabid does not autocast unless the pet is being attacked. That's intentional for some stupid reason, confirmed by GC. I haven't had any problems getting it to cast or stack by putting it in my shot macro along with Kill Command.
Yes yes, I know this. That's why I mentioned I was macro'ing it with SS. This was failing. It would never cast, and would simply just burn the pets GCD and not allow anything to autocast (like rake). Yes autocasting was turned off.
Even when I would just stand there and autoshoot, hitting rabid would just sit there and complain ability not ready long after it's CD was up and cat had full focus. There is something buggy going on with it.
This is on the ptr testing current lvl 70 toon on 70 target dummy.
Macro'ing KC on a constant spammed macro seems like a waste given it's new 1 minute CD. To simplify matters and see if it worked well, I simply attached it to a Bestial Wrath macro and let it be up as often as BW was to test BW/KC/Rabid bursts... Except rabid kept failing or falling behind even when I was spamming it manually (which left not firing steadies or anything else for upwards of 5 seconds or so). Blah. It's rather frustrating so far.
Maybe things are working on beta but not on ptr. I'd like to see some others test it. I'll go back and try some more today maybe and see if something changed in their many reboots.
I saw it mentioned by the new guy (starts with an M, can't remember the name) but I haven't seen GC comment on it yet...
Yes, my apologies. It wasn't GC, it was Maaven.
Originally Posted by mochunk
Yes autocasting was turned off.
I wonder if this might be why its not working for you? I have it turned on, but its only in my spellbook and not on my pet bar. And that seems to work fine for me, at least in the beta.
"I've always wondered what it'd be like to have a prehensile penis, but you don't see me shitting up this thread with my idea." - Kaubel
Regardless it is pretty buggy/wierd behavior and should really be changed. Ferocity pets really aren't going to be, or at least shouldn't be, doing much tanking which makes rabid's current mechanics really strange. Apparently workarounds are possible(sometimes?) but a workaround really shouldn't be required.
Originally Posted by Vontre
Protip: I don't actually raid on my mage, it's more fun to make spreadsheets.
Talented, I see it hitting harder than steady on the spreadsheet... mana could be the deciding issue.
Untalented, Steady and Arcane hit for about the same, making Arcane not worth the mana. And imo, I think you're better off spending talent points else where than on Imp Arcane Shot.
I really doubt Arcane shot will be used in a MM rotation
I love using it. When I get Improved steady procs I will use them on an arcane shot in a heartbeat.
Especially for those times when Imp steady procs 1 second after you fire your chimera. In those situations do you seriously let the imp SS proc sit until your next chimera? I always use the arcane shot then sometimes get yet another imp ss proc in time to use it on my chimera (for massive mana savings and a nice damage increase). Not using arcane on those procs seems like a waste, considering imp SS procs do not stack, you would waste lots of potential imp ss procs if you held every single one of them until your chimera cooled.
Talented, I see it hitting harder than steady on the spreadsheet... mana could be the deciding issue.
Macros fail as soon as they run into a cooldowned/unusable ability. 'fall-through' logic was removed patches ago. You'd need to use a /castsequence for rabid/kill command and one for chimera/arcane and probably just have steady off as its own keybind.
Originally Posted by Relwin
If you need a shot macro to hold your hand then you are probably on the wrong forums.
I wonder if this might be why its not working for you? I have it turned on, but its only in my spellbook and not on my pet bar. And that seems to work fine for me, at least in the beta.
Well, it's working fine now. Interesting. I can also put it on bar, spellbook, auto, non auto, seems to be fine. Macro'd to SS and spamming it while weaving serpent sting as BM.
Claw doesn't animate that it's fired yet claw is a significant portion of the fight I recorded in recount. interesting. I also included it in my SS macro just to make sure it was firing, still never showed that it did.
10/11/08, 8:08 AM
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