WotLK Talents & Abilities Discussion - Page 159

◊ Lactose · 10/12/08, 8:19 PM

Originally Posted by Mikari

I've not noticed my Steady Shot hitting for less if another Hunters sting is up instead of my own. As for Invigoration I certainly notice it on fights where I can't use my pet, granted that is only currently Heigan so far.

Here's the test showing that another Hunter's Serpent Sting does not increase your Steady Shot damage if glyphed.

WotLK DPS spreadsheet

KraxisSingular · 10/12/08, 8:24 PM

Originally Posted by Intermission

Ouch... not much in terms of options there for level 70. Not any Major glyph I would consider great at 70, though I guess Glyph of Serpent Sting would be one of the majors. The other is much more mushy. Rapid Fire? Seems like half a waste, but then again none of the others are even nice. Aimed Shot could be interesting, but I don't even know if I will use it in raids. Bah.
Is it this bad for everyone?

Trigun · 10/12/08, 8:27 PM

Well i guess if i go by the consensus animal handler frees me up 2 points. Problem is where to spend those 2 points on then, since this is a staple for tbc raiding. Course you would need 5/5 in Frenzy just to move further down, or 1/2 in spirit bond,but i was thinking if i take 3/3 cobra strikes thats one less point in Frenzy i would need to take since pet would already be crit like crazy,so i would take 2/2 spirit bond. So ultimately i would end up with 49 points in BM. This is of course at lvl 70, i would prob try a diffrent build at 80 something alone the lines of 50/21 since exotic pets is so lackluster right now. So far i'm thinking either:

I take 2/2 spirit bond,even though yes i agree spirit bond isnt exactly a great talent,i see no other place to put the 2/2 points freed from animal handler,you could max out frenzy i guess but at 5/5 frenzy thats just 1-2 points wasted.

49/12/0

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

If i take into account the Steady Shot Glyph and counting i will always have my serpent sting up,was thinking more along the lines of:

43/18/0

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

This is of course all at lvl 70 since my guild isn't going to stop raiding only cause Wrath is a month away

flimflam · 10/12/08, 8:43 PM

[DELETED]

Edit: Trigun, the steady shot glyph wont be available until after wotlk though

Esoth · 10/12/08, 8:57 PM

Originally Posted by flimflam

This is from PTR today. (10/12/08)

Level 70 cat vs level 70 training dummy using melee and claw.

Each test being 10 minutes.

0% hit: http://i38.tinypic.com/29zu06x.jpg - Melee: 5.4%, Claw: 4.9%

0% hit, 3 Focused Aim: http://i35.tinypic.com/auz9tz.jpg - Melee: 3.7%, Claw: 4.1%

2.03% hit (32 rating), 3 Focused Aim: http://i35.tinypic.com/2agkoqr.jpg - Melee: 0%, Claw: 0%

8.81% hit (139 rating): http://i38.tinypic.com/2njinvk.jpg - Melee: 0%, Claw: 0%

the 3 Focused Aim with no hit gear on seems off? im testing right now with 10 HR and 3 Focused Aim.

Edit: Trigun, the steady shot glyph wont be available until after wotlk though

Am I seeing that correctly that your pet is doing crushing blows?

flimflam · 10/12/08, 9:18 PM

Originally Posted by Esoth

Am I seeing that correctly that your pet is doing crushing blows?

weird, in the combat log it doesnt say crushing but recount is picking it up as crushing. i wonder if theres something up with recount, gonna go redownload it.

=/ recount is giving me different numbers now. gonna redo the tests. thanks for pointing that out!

ElginRoko · 10/12/08, 9:47 PM

Originally Posted by Esoth

Am I seeing that correctly that your pet is doing crushing blows?

Going by pretty much every recount screenie I've seen from beta, it's got a display bug. Notice how the "glancing" blows seem to be hitting for twice as much as hits? That's because it's showing crits as glancing blows. By the looks of things I'd say the "crushing" is supposed to read "glancing"

flimflam · 10/12/08, 10:05 PM

It looks like Recount has been updated for 3.0.

Its gonna take awhile so im gonna update this post as each test completes.

Level 70 cat vs level 70 training dummy using melee and claw. Each test lasted until 500 melee hits.

0 Hit Rating, No Talents: Melee: 3.2%, Claw: 4.4%

139 Hit Rating (8.81%), No Talents: Melee: 0%, Claw: 0%

0 Hit Rating, 3 Focused Aim: http://i34.tinypic.com/2nrk0gx.jpg (something went wrong with this test. doesnt even come close to the others)
0 Hit Rating, 3 Focused Aim: Melee: 1.2%, Claw: 2.9% (test 2)
0 Hit Rating, 3 Focused Aim: Melee: 1.6%, Claw: 2.0% (test 3)
0 Hit Rating, 3 Focused Aim: Melee: 1.8%, Claw: 2.0% (final test)

32 Hit Rating (2.03%), 3 Focused Aim: Melee: 0%, Claw: 0%

Conclusion: Pets now receive hit from your gear and the talent Focused Aim.

With no hit, the pet missed.
With capped hit from gear, the pet never missed.
With no hit and 3 in Focused Aim, the pet missed ~1.9%.
With 32 hit (2.03%) and Focused Aim, the pet never missed.

This makes Animal Handler pretty useless. Just get Focused Aim to up both you and your pets hit % while spending the Animal Handler points on something else.

Rinsenrepeat · 10/12/08, 11:29 PM

Originally Posted by flimflam

It looks like Recount has been updated for 3.0.

Its gonna take awhile so im gonna update this post as each test completes.

Level 70 cat vs level 70 training dummy using melee and claw. Each test lasted until 500 melee hits.

0 Hit Rating, No Talents: Melee: 3.2%, Claw: 4.4%
139 Hit Rating (8.81%), No Talents: Melee: 0%, Claw: 0%
0 Hit Rating, 3 Focused Aim: Melee: 5.4%, Claw: 8.4%

maybe just be me but how did a pet miss more with a talent that supposedly provides extra hit, with you wearing no hit gear compared to you with no talents and no hit gear, maybe its me looking at it wrong or a bad hit streak.

flimflam · 10/12/08, 11:33 PM

i think it was a real bad streak, im doing 2 more tests to see how they compare. it didnt make any sense to me either.

dannii · 10/12/08, 11:37 PM

While this may not be the most exciting level 80 spell it does have some genuine value for hunters prepared to work for it:

1. Pre-set Freezing before a pull, distract 1 mob into the trap, Freezing arrow a second mob. Gives a nice short-term CC on two mobs at the beginning of a pull to allow the group to gain control of the other mobs. Trade-off is the reduced ability to chain CC.
2. Panic trapping – save a squishy / yourself, might require a Distracting Shot if the arming timing is an issue
3. Caster trapping – los no longer needed to trap casters
4. PvP – meh, maybe improves cc on pillar humpers by a small amount? (I don't do arenas anymore so others may have better views on PvP application)

The hunter community is full of players who work hard to find ways to make the most of their situation. Freezing Arrow may just be another situation where we take a lemon and make lemonade. Ideally we’d start with lemonade but them’s the breaks.

Trigun · 10/12/08, 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by flimflam

[DELETED]

Edit: Trigun, the steady shot glyph wont be available until after wotlk though

Ill go with 49/12/0 then

Bovii · 10/13/08, 12:00 AM

Originally Posted by dannii

While this may not be the most exciting level 80 spell it does have some genuine value for hunters prepared to work for it:

1. Pre-set Freezing before a pull, distract 1 mob into the trap, Freezing arrow a second mob. Gives a nice short-term CC on two mobs at the beginning of a pull to allow the group to gain control of the other mobs. Trade-off is the reduced ability to chain CC.
2. Panic trapping – save a squishy / yourself, might require a Distracting Shot if the arming timing is an issue
3. Caster trapping – los no longer needed to trap casters
4. PvP – meh, maybe improves cc on pillar humpers by a small amount? (I don't do arenas anymore so others may have better views on PvP application)

The hunter community is full of players who work hard to find ways to make the most of their situation. Freezing Arrow may just be another situation where we take a lemon and make lemonade. Ideally we’d start with lemonade but them’s the breaks.

1. You're better off just pulling as normal with double trapping as the end result is the exact same. You can't switch the order as you'll get immediate aggro, have to MD right off the bat and in an awkward situation (nobody likes getting rushed on MDs), and your trap timer will be down meaning no double trap.

2. Panic trapping is bad when you're using a ground target. You're better off Distracting, Concussing, and normal trapping.

4. Pillar humping might be a rather valid tactic. All of that, though depends on the situation, arena, partner(s), and opponents>

The only real and valid option of Freezing Arrow is, as you mentioned in #3, in the case of caster mobs. It will definitely help without having to run around corners and in situations where the primary CC has ended and the originator is dead or busy with something else.

I'm just curious as to why they did it this way instead of making Wyvern Sting a base ability.

Suspiria · 10/13/08, 12:15 AM

Someone on PTR had finded some viable spec for raiding after patch, but before WotLK?
I've thinked this talent calculator.
I dont really like Spirit Bond, still mandatory talent imho, and with 5/5 Kindred Spirits, too much useful talents in MM are missed.

Steelfleece · 10/13/08, 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by Suspiria

Someone on PTR had finded some viable spec for raiding after patch, but before WotLK?
I've thinked this talent calculator.
I dont really like Spirit Bond, still mandatory talent imho, and with 5/5 Kindred Spirits, too much useful talents in MM are missed.

Are you really confident in constant Fury uptime with only 3/5, the removal of Kill Command (as an ability that can proc it), and no Cobra Strikes?

Trigun · 10/13/08, 12:32 AM

Originally Posted by Steelfleece

Are you really confident in constant Fury uptime with only 3/5, the removal of Kill Command (as an ability that can proc it), and no Cobra Strikes?

Doubt frenzy will be able to stay up with only 3 points in and no cobra strikes.

Threepi · 10/13/08, 12:52 AM

Two questions:

1. Will there be any attempt to consolidate the information/findings in this thread? I've been out of WoW since my guild collapsed right when we were starting with SWP. I'm trying to get back into the game, and essentially having to 'relearn how to hunter." I've tried to follow this thread as best I can, but it seems somewhat disorganized and frequently changes topics.

2. Has anyone looked at any hybrid specs? I'm not sure how "necessary" Chimera/Explosive shots are for MM or SV, but a single hunter could get both Expose Weakness and TSA, +19% agi with Lighting Reflexes + Combat Experience, RAP would scale with Int and Stam (which would all feed back into TSA). Something like this this (notice there's still 5 points left, I wouldn't know where to put them). Plus once you get enough +hit on gear you can drop Focused Aim for more of thos "middle talents."

Obviously this is just kind of rampant/basis speculation by me, and without access to the beta there's no way I can test it, but just throwing it out there.

flimflam · 10/13/08, 1:03 AM

Originally Posted by Threepi

Two questions:
2. Has anyone looked at any hybrid specs? I'm not sure how "necessary" Chimera/Explosive shots are for MM or SV, but a single hunter could get both Expose Weakness and TSA, +19% agi with Lighting Reflexes + Combat Experience, RAP would scale with Int and Stam (which would all feed back into TSA). Something like this this (notice there's still 5 points left, I wouldn't know where to put them). Plus once you get enough +hit on gear you can drop Focused Aim for more of thos "middle talents."

Obviously this is just kind of rampant/basis speculation by me, and without accees to the beta there's no way I can test it, but just throwing it out there.

You might be able to calculate the effects with the http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t30710-h...s_spreadsheet/, i dont know anything further tho since i dont have access to the beta either.

Tyranna · 10/13/08, 1:20 AM

Originally Posted by dannii

While this may not be the most exciting level 80 spell it does have some genuine value for hunters prepared to work for it:

1. Pre-set Freezing before a pull, distract 1 mob into the trap, Freezing arrow a second mob. Gives a nice short-term CC on two mobs at the beginning of a pull to allow the group to gain control of the other mobs. Trade-off is the reduced ability to chain CC.
2. Panic trapping – save a squishy / yourself, might require a Distracting Shot if the arming timing is an issue
3. Caster trapping – los no longer needed to trap casters
4. PvP – meh, maybe improves cc on pillar humpers by a small amount? (I don't do arenas anymore so others may have better views on PvP application)

The hunter community is full of players who work hard to find ways to make the most of their situation. Freezing Arrow may just be another situation where we take a lemon and make lemonade. Ideally we’d start with lemonade but them’s the breaks.

While I can see definitely 3 and maybe 4 being applicable, I am reluctant to agree with 1 and 2. For 1, I can do this already in live with pretrapping and starting the pull with a low threat shot like scorpid sting or r1 arcane. I then follow up with distracting for the second add I'm pulling into the second trap just in case a healer jumped the gun with a hot or something.

For 2, currently on the PTR/Beta, freezing arrow has a 1s arming time from when the arrow hits the ground instead of when it's fired like it was last build. That means whoever is getting beat on needs to stay still for 1s or else they'll move the mob out of the trap's range. Seriously, when a squishy gets beaten on, that 1s means he's either dead or running.

I've been wracking my brain to come up with ways to use freezing arrow that I can't normally do now with the way I've always pulled on live and I've found it to be extremely situational.

Ketari · 10/13/08, 2:02 AM

Originally Posted by Kaejin

In light of the Glyph of Steady Shot news, does using Glyph of Arcane Shot make Arcane worthwhile to use in a BM rotation? Will it take 3/3 Imp Arcane Shot to make it usable, or will that still not be enough?

Even with both it's hard to see it being worthwhile. Sure, it takes it down to 5.8% base mana but the damage is still scaling with 17.25% of AP, not 22% (assuming glyph for both and talent for arcane). With northrend weapon+amo, the bonus damage is something like 494 for the steady and 565 for the arcane.. at just 3k AP steady's 7% ahead and it'll only get further ahead as AP rises. And it's still 30 mana cheaper.

That's at 80 ofc. It might look different at 70 but after LK...

Alzedo · 10/13/08, 2:29 AM

I was thinking about the following build for 70.

50/11/0

There are a couple of things that I am still not sure about and have not been able to test thoroughly myself and from reading through the recent posts, I did not see any conclusion on which is better.

1. 3/3 CA 2/5 MS or 0/3 CA 5/5 MS

2. I will be switching back to BM from SV, so to cover the +hit should i be using 3/3 FA 2/5 LS or use hit gems/gear

Cranch · 10/13/08, 3:04 AM

Hmm, I hope the lvl 71+ mobs in Northrend are upgraded. A lot.

Right now, my scorpid at level 69 on the PTR can tank two 70 elites (the ones at the BT entryway) and end up at full hitpoints by the time both are dead (2 piece T5 and BM 53/8/0 build.) To make this very clear, I'm not trying very hard. Sic the pet on them, MD both to the pet, then kill one then the other. Zzzz.

I feel way OP'd now compared to the level 70 BC mobs, to the point where I fear that levelling up to 80 is going to be boring.

And that's not including the no-cooldown Volley -- it's now easy to AOE down large groups of mobs, especially if you duo with a pally tank. MD, (explosive, volley) until dead. Whoa. The next month until LK is going to be interesting.

Hmm, maybe that's Blizzard's hidden goal. Group up with your friends, pull everything, AOE them down, hit 80 fast.

Rhoi · 10/13/08, 3:07 AM

I know that almost everyone is jumping on the BM bandwagon for 70 after Tuesday, and there has been plenty of discussion on lvl 70 specs for raiding BM, but I'm still aching for being able to use Surv for raids, even if it is just for Replenishment.

Whats the theories behind SV atm regarding how many points you need in ToTH and HP? I remember reading that with other sources for replenishment you only need 2-3/5 for the replenishment otherwise its overkill. I'd personally love to have more talent points to spread round, but my problem is that I just dont have anywhere else I'd rather put them, I dont pvp at all so the other talents dont seem to add much flavour.

This is what I was thinking, something like this but am still unsure if its beter to max out LaL or TnT...hell, Im not even sure anymore if Survival is for me. I feel like ordering a DNA test to see if my baby is mine

Bullshot · 10/13/08, 3:46 AM

Originally Posted by Rhoi

This is what I was thinking, something like this but am still unsure if its beter to max out LaL or TnT...hell, Im not even sure anymore if Survival is for me. I feel like ordering a DNA test to see if my baby is mine

If I am to remain Survival at 70, I'm leaning towards something like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I have my doubts about Mortal Shots though. It affects Explosive Shots now but is it better to max it rather than taking 3/3 Careful Aim and 2/5 Mortal Shots? I'm still on the fence regarding that one and will probably play around with it once 3.0.2 goes live.

Sebudai · 10/13/08, 4:34 AM

Careful Aim is one of the best talents as far as dps-per-point. The spreadsheet tells me it's almost twice as good as Mortal Shots.