Actually the most impressive thing about call of the wild is the fact that it stacks with everything right now, even other call of the wilds. We were running 5 bm hunters in a naxx run the other night all of us syncing our first call of the wild to start the fight while using CDs. Some of us were sporting a massive 11k+ rap at the time, its not something thats very practical for raids right now since most guilds won't bring near that many hunters (mine will only bring 2 and might not bring that now that SV is garbage). But its definitely a huge increase and alot of fun.
Yeah, 5 BM hunters is rather excessive number and syncing CotW with so many people -is- impractical.
However I will disagree with your statement regarding SV. I wouldn't call it a garbage. I've spent some time doing Naxx as SV and it did pretty ok dps. I've spent most of the time in Naxx 10 with premade gear, raiding along other premades and people in T6/heroic blues. I've been placed at 1-2 spot on damage charts pretty much all the time, while providing replenishment to the raid. It's a fun spec (I'm enjoying it way more than BM and probably even more than MM) and it's definatly on it's toes.
Purely from a design point of view too, if they never had any intentions of adding auto shot to volley then why would they have changed the animation to incorporate it?
The animation doesn't seem to be working correctly if so, it's doing the fire animation repeatedly (not with natural pause that comes from while waiting between Auto Shots normally). Thus, I wouldn't use the animation to argue Auto Shot is intended to work through Volley.
There's not much point discussing it further, though. Currently, Auto Shot does not fire through Volley channeling. This might be a bug, so it's worth posting about it on the bug forums and hopefully getting some response clarifying the issue.
Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max
I'm pretty sure Steady Shot was hand-coded to not clip auto shot and that's it. There's no reason it should continue through a channel, especially now that said channel does respectable damage >.>
If the beta isn't down I'll jump on and play around with instants in regards to auto shot to make sure I'm not making any stupid broad statements, but I assume instants can still push back auto-shot .1-.4 seconds if you fire it during the .5 second attack animation, could be completely wrong. If the .5 second animation is gone we could run and gun, and obviously we still can't do that.
So, judging by the duration of BW and the cooldowns involved, 2/3 Longevity and the Glyph are the most efficient if you take Readiness.
I did some napkin-math about this topic and came to the conclusion, that 3/3 Longevity, Readiness, BW-Glyph and 2/2 Rapid Killing are probably the most efficient way.
My build would look like this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (if hit-capped talents from Focused Aim into Efficiency)
As I was unsure which abilities trigger GDC or not, I calculated 2 sec between abilities (GCD and human reaction). On live and macroed this rotation may be a little tigther.
0:00 - Beastial Wrath (CD ready at 1:04)
0:02 - Rapid Fire (CD ready at 3:02)
0:17 - Rapid Fire off
0:18 - BW off
1:04 - Bestial Wrath (CD ready at 2:08)
1:22 - BW off
2:08 - Beastial Wrath (CD ready at 3:12)
2:26 - BW off
-- around here Readiness will be ready in the following rotations, but it's not used immediately --
3:02 - Rapid Fire ready (just wait a moment to use it)
3:12 - Bestial Wrath ready and use it
3:14 - Rapid Fire
3:16 - Readiness (CD ready at 6:16)
3:29 - Rapid Fire off
3:30 - BW off
This makes up for:
BW + RF: 2 * 15 sec = 30 sec
full BW: 2 * 18 sec = 36 sec
part BW: 2 * 3 sec = 6 sec
Total BW-Uptime = 72 sec or a 34.3% uptime (almost half the timed hasted with RF)
Last edited by Belzi.ET : 10/14/08 at 6:45 AM.
Reason: learn to insert links
Now I'll be trying to justify my build and the doubts related to it.
The first thing that comes into my mind is the point allocation in Frenzy. Should I put 5 points on that or should I just go for 4 points and have that talent point left to something else? (Mend pet, or Spirit Bond).
As for top tiers, here it gets quite tricky to me:
Longevity full talented in a fight like Brutallus (6 mins) will grant me an extra BW (and undoubtely more pet damage due to their cd reduced too).
Cobra Strikes grants me more pet critical strikes, increasing Frenzy uptime (and that's exactly where my doubts about a fully talented frenzy come from) but nothing more apart that. Ferocious inspiration used to be up all the times pre-patch, so I don't think my pet crits could be a serious deal. So here's why I decided that I'd rather go with 3/3 Longevity and 1/3 Cobra Strikes.
Now about Kindred Spirits, the doubt is quite simple. Is it worth to lose 4% pet damage and go for 2/2 GftT or should I just stay with 5/5 Kindred Spirits and 1/2GftT? Here's where you guys could help me figuring out what could be the best choice. I'm not in beta and haven't had the time to play on the PTR, so basically I know nothing about the new mechanics involved with pets, how their abilities are performing etc.
So in order to take my decision on this matter I'd like to ask what's the current best pet for raiding? Would 1/2 GftT regenerate enough focus in order to make this pet work fine?
Now regarding marksmanship talents seen in my build:
Careful Aim seems the best choice to me right now. Right now I would get about 280-300 AP from it and I think It would be wise to spend 3 points on it and just 2 on Mortal Strikes (nerfed since autoshot are not getting any benefit anymore).
Of course every other point left would be spent on GftT as it's vital.
This is what I was thinking about Marksmanship. I don't think there could be much to debate about points spent in the marksman tree, maybe Hunter's mark points spent elsewhere, like on Efficency. As for the other 2 trees, I decided to go for 7 BM points and 3 SV points. It's quite easy to figure why I've specced like this. 2 points in improved tracking arent worth the 2 points in Focused Fire. Both add 1% damage (Improved Tracking doesnt work on periodic effect!) and Focused Fire gives me a few more damage from KC.
Finally the survival build. I'm not very excited about this but here's how I'd spec.
The doubts here are very few, should I just go as a mana battery sacrificing a bit of Master Tactician/Sniper training for Hunting party? Every other point seems to be invested correctly.
Cliffs about what cares me the most:
-Longevity vs Cobra Strikes, and Kindred Spirits against GftT.
-Pet choice?
I've question regarding the 51 BM talent, Beast Mastery. How does it work if BM hunter with Beast Mastery talents his no-exotic pet with the 4 extra talents and then respects?
Imagine I have Beast Mastery talent and have ordinary cat with the extra 4 talents. I also have full stables. What does happen when I respect to survival? Will it dissmiss the pet and won't allow me to call it back as it has more talents spent than it should or will it erase the last 4 spent talents?
I've question regarding the 51 BM talent, Beast Mastery. How does it work if BM hunter with Beast Mastery talents his no-exotic pet with the 4 extra talents and then respects?
Imagine I have Beast Mastery talent and have ordinary cat with the extra 4 talents. I also have full stables. What does happen when I respect to survival? Will it dissmiss the pet and won't allow me to call it back as it has more talents spent than it should or will it erase the last 4 spent talents?
Sorry for a little off topic.
Your pet will just unlearn all its talents and you get to spend the points available to you after the respec again however you want.
This is what I was thinking about Marksmanship. I don't think there could be much to debate about points spent in the marksman tree, maybe Hunter's mark points spent elsewhere, like on Efficency. As for the other 2 trees, I decided to go for 7 BM points and 3 SV points. It's quite easy to figure why I've specced like this. 2 points in improved tracking arent worth the 2 points in Focused Fire. Both add 1% damage (Improved Tracking doesnt work on periodic effect!) and Focused Fire gives me a few more damage from KC.
Notes for MM:
Imp. HM is bad. I'm surprised you've chosen it above Focused Aim and it's 3% hit.
Skipping Efficiency -and- Rapid Recuperation makes me wonder how you intend to manage your mana, after pretty much stripping the build form all the talents, that are intended to help on that.
Piercing shots are really poor inestment of points, their dps contribution is neglectable. Aimed shot isn't really worth it either, imo.
As for Focused Fire - you prefer to spend 7 points for extra 2% damage and hasting effect, that isn't really as useful as it used to be pre 3.0, when you can get same 2% at cost of 2 talent points in SV? Personally I wouldn't go for that at lvl 70. Too high talent cost for too little gain. Also the periodic effect issue - it means that only stings won't get benefit from it. All the shots aren't periodic effects, so it's really neglectable issue, really.
From the glyphs I've seen available for today's patch, it would seem that Serpent Sting and Rapid Fire are the way to go. I don't see any better options until WOTLK.
Imp. HM is bad. I'm surprised you've chosen it above Focused Aim and it's 3% hit.
Skipping Efficiency -and- Rapid Recuperation makes me wonder how you intend to manage your mana, after pretty much stripping the build form all the talents, that are intended to help on that.
Piercing shots are really poor inestment of points, their dps contribution is neglectable. Aimed shot isn't really worth it either, imo.
As for Focused Fire - you prefer to spend 7 points for extra 2% damage and hasting effect, that isn't really as useful as it used to be pre 3.0, when you can get same 2% at cost of 2 talent points in SV? Personally I wouldn't go for that at lvl 70. Too high talent cost for too little gain. Also the periodic effect issue - it means that only stings won't get benefit from it. All the shots aren't periodic effects, so it's really neglectable issue, really.
I've picked Imp. HM because yes, at this time I've got enough gear to reach the 142 cap. Of course all my builds are intended for a Level 70. But you made a good point about Aimed Shot and Piercing shot, even if I think piercing shot could still help. I skipped every "mana talent" since from what I've heard so far, mana won't be a great issue with the new Aspect of the Viper. Still I could agree with you that perhaps I should investigate more on that matter (as i said in the previous thread unfortunately I couldn't check anything of the new mechanics).
As for the 7 point in the BM tree and the 3 in SV. If I get 5 points in SV i get a +5% damage, and I might take 5 points of IAotH or spend these in the MM tree into these "mana talents". But if I have to look at the damage the haste effect+2%dmg+KC bonus + 3% damage from SV wins against a haste(IAotH)+5%dmg(ImpTrack).
Actually the most impressive thing about call of the wild is the fact that it stacks with everything right now, even other call of the wilds. We were running 5 bm hunters in a naxx run the other night all of us syncing our first call of the wild to start the fight while using CDs. Some of us were sporting a massive 11k+ rap at the time, its not something thats very practical for raids right now since most guilds won't bring near that many hunters (mine will only bring 2 and might not bring that now that SV is garbage). But its definitely a huge increase and alot of fun.
I don't see any reason why guilds hesitate using more than 2 hunters. Most of times we use at least 2, sometimes 4 (with feral being 5th in group). Being top dps class (as it seems to be continued in wotlk too) with some quite good utilities (MD, FD, buffs, soon AoE) is reason I don't understand those decisions.
And as for syncing CotW - isn't it similar to current drums mechanic? Of course, less powerful with lower uptime but still can provide nice dps output.
Notes for MM:Skipping Efficiency -and- Rapid Recuperation makes me wonder how you intend to manage your mana, after pretty much stripping the build form all the talents, that are intended to help on that.
Mana management in the conventional sense is pretty much a thing of the past, in 3.X you look at AotV uptime instead. Both efficiency and rapid recuperation represent a pretty small decrease in AotV uptime, to the point that they come out as very bad DPS talents - efficiency even being worse per point than piercing shots, which it's been shows time and time again is a plain awful talent.
I'll go as far as to napkin math a really bad example for you[1]. Supposing you get 90s Hawk time, followed by 10s viper time to regen your mana. 5/5 Efficiency takes your 90s Hawk time to 100s[2]. So after mana is taken into account, with 5/5 efficiency you're operating at (100 + 10 * 0.5)/110 = 95.45% and with 0/5 efficiency you're operating at (90 + 10 * 0.5)/100 = 95%. Dividing one by t'other you get 5 points in efficiency as a 0.48% dps increase.
[1] Missing factor: You start a fight with full mana, and if you're managing AotV perfectly, finish with none.
[2] A lie, in a raid you have combat mana regen, which extends this a little
The napkin math is quick and dirty, because unfortunately its complexity increases to an absurd degree if you take into account things like passive regen. Still, if napkin math shows less than 0.1% dps increase per point, you know a talent is never going to yield a good dps return.
Rapid recuperation was covered a few pages back, iirc we reached the conclusion that with RK and Readiness 1 point was about as good as 2 point in efficiency.
Mana management in the conventional sense is pretty much a thing of the past, in 3.X you look at AotV uptime instead. Both efficiency and rapid recuperation represent a pretty small decrease in AotV uptime, to the point that they come out as very bad DPS talents - efficiency even being worse per point than piercing shots, which it's been shows time and time again is a plain awful talent.
I'll go as far as to napkin math a really bad example for you[1]. Supposing you get 90s Hawk time, followed by 10s viper time to regen your mana. 5/5 Efficiency takes your 90s Hawk time to 100s[2]. So after mana is taken into account, with 5/5 efficiency you're operating at (100 + 10 * 0.5)/110 = 95.45% and with 0/5 efficiency you're operating at (90 + 10 * 0.5)/100 = 95%. Dividing one by t'other you get 5 points in efficiency as a 0.48% dps increase.
[1] Missing factor: You start a fight with full mana, and if you're managing AotV perfectly, finish with none.
[2] A lie, in a raid you have combat mana regen, which extends this a little
The napkin math is quick and dirty, because unfortunately its complexity increases to an absurd degree if you take into account things like passive regen. Still, if napkin math shows less than 0.1% dps increase per point, you know a talent is never going to yield a good dps return.
Rapid recuperation was covered a few pages back, iirc we reached the conclusion that with RK and Readiness 1 point was about as good as 2 point in efficiency.
I've used spreadsheet to simplyfy time to OOM calculation in raid enviroment. Apparently T6 giered MM hunter with lvl 70 raid buffs gets to OOM state in 201sec without efficiency/rapid recuperation, while with Efficiency it's 271 seconds (I haven't figured how to make spreadsheet calc include RR in this calculation). Thats 70sec difference. If you will divide it into 100sec segments, actual gain from those talents is over 20seconds out of Viper per each.
Speaking of RR - assuming 2/2RK and Readiness you get about 18% RF uptime if I remember well. This means about 11% mana reduction, unless my tired brain made some really bad mistake. And seeing how 10% mana cost alone influences TTOOM, I would say it's more interesting gain than 15% haste to autoshot, which has with 3.0 base speed uptime of around 45% (again shamelessly stolen from the spreadsheet) and affects the shot that is around 30% of our total dps.
would scorpid poison be worth putting in a steady shot macro instead of leaving it on autocast? has someone attempted this with claw on autocast and found the sp uptime to be comparable to turning claw off and autocasting sp?
I tried that yesterday. Macro i used.
/cast steady shot
/cast scorpid poison
Wasnt working at all, i dunno maybe i did something wrong, that was just some quick test before raid
I wanted to check it today, but surprise - PTR is already turned off ;/
-Longevity vs Cobra Strikes, and Kindred Spirits against GftT.
-Pet choice?
As far as I can tell this is the highest DPS build: BM, Pet
With the second point in spirit bond switchable to Imp mend pet. This is the first build I will be testing and I am rather confident in it, as spread sheet backs it up fully. This pretty much answers your first question as for pet choice hands down cat as I'm pretty sure the scorpid is bugged on PTR with the level 80 poison etc.
I've used spreadsheet to simplyfy time to OOM calculation in raid enviroment. Apparently T6 giered MM hunter with lvl 70 raid buffs gets to OOM state in 201sec without efficiency/rapid recuperation, while with Efficiency it's 271 seconds (I haven't figured how to make spreadsheet calc include RR in this calculation). Thats 70sec difference. If you will divide it into 100sec segments, actual gain from those talents is over 20seconds out of Viper per each.
I've been working from lvl80 values, but that's a pretty significant difference from what I've been calculating, enough to make me wonder if I've missed something. I'll go check and make sure I've got all the mana regen buffs you get in a raid scenario, since they have a substantial effect on the value of mana cost reduction talents.
Edit: For example, remembering to add the buff from mana spring totem is enough to double the value of efficiency. I hereby revoke the statement about efficiency being worse than piercing shots, it isn't.
Good stuff here. Blytz I like your spec and will no doubt give it a try. I was on the PTR and did a bunch of testing. Not sure how this forum group feels about the alla hunter forums but there is usually some pretty good info there as well.
I tested dozens of specs, playing with a point here and a point there. I think everyone is agreed that BM/MM is the spec to go with for pure dps. It is a shame they nerfed SV into oblivion.
My thoughts currently are between your spec and mine, will crit % effect which is more effective. my hunter is currently at about 31% crit unbuffed leading me to believe that the few extra points in mortal shots makes up for the lack of points in kindred spirit.
I also am curious as to thoughts about trinkets and abilites one uses which may effect which spec will work best. I know a hunter who is against longevity because it will throw off his trinket and TBW timing. I find that logic a little silly as i spam BW everytime it is up. If it is up more often then that should net an overall increase in pet/personal dps.
Another intersting tidbit is the exotic pet talents, i never had the time to level a devilsaur or anything up to 70 to do an testing on so i have no idea if by 70 it will outpace a cats dps. Time will tell i am sure.
As far as I can tell this is the highest DPS build: BM, Pet
With the second point in spirit bond switchable to Imp mend pet. This is the first build I will be testing and I am rather confident in it, as spread sheet backs it up fully. This pretty much answers your first question as for pet choice hands down cat as I'm pretty sure the scorpid is bugged on PTR with the level 80 poison etc.
Hmm, I guess you made some mistake with your posted build. Your talent-tree is layouted for a level 70 character (49/12/0), but you gave your pet 16 skill-points, which are only available if the pet is level 80 (or with Beast Mastery).
Going with something like this: BM1 = 2644 Spread DPS. That is with 5/5 MS, 3/3 CS, 2/3 Longevity, and 0/5 KS.
Meanwhile going with: BM2 = 2716 Spread DPS. With 2/5MS, 2/3 CS, 2/3 Longevity and 4/5 KS.
With 0/5 KS and just going from 2/5 MS to 5/5 MS it is only a 48 DPS increase or 16DPS per point.
Where as going from 0/5 KS to 3/5 KS is a 104 DPS increase or 34.66DPS per point.
Making KS almost twice as good per point compared to MS..from my calculations any who.
Originally Posted by Belzi.ET
Hmm, I guess you made some mistake with your posted build. Your talent-tree is layouted for a level 70 character (49/12/0), but you gave your pet 16 skill-points, which are only available if the pet is level 80 (or with Beast Mastery).
As far as I can tell this is the highest DPS build: BM, Pet
With the second point in spirit bond switchable to Imp mend pet. This is the first build I will be testing and I am rather confident in it, as spread sheet backs it up fully. This pretty much answers your first question as for pet choice hands down cat as I'm pretty sure the scorpid is bugged on PTR with the level 80 poison etc.
That is basically the same BM build I have in my head for when I get home today. Only difference is I opted for the full 5/5 Kindred Spirits since I have found 1/2 GFTT (PTR testing) keeps my pets focus bar full. I have approx. 35.5% crit at level 70, but even a hunter has 30% or pretty close to that could use 1/2 GFTT and have enough focus. That way you are not giving up 4% extra damage boost for your pet.
The pet link you provided was for level 80, but I think I see where you were going with your build. The big question for level 70 ferocity pet is Rabid or CotW? 3/3 Spiders Bite and Avoidance is a given.
EDIT: Wording Fix
EDIT: Blytz, I saw your pet talent fix and I like the Rabid choice over CotW too.
Has anyone seen a blue note or anything of the sort on the change to Mortal Shots? I am still holding out that this is some sort of bug. I can't imagine why it should not affect auto-shots, when everything they've done to the class has led to improving the auto-shot mechanic.
Has anyone seen a blue note or anything of the sort on the change to Mortal Shots? I am still holding out that this is some sort of bug. I can't imagine why it should not affect auto-shots, when everything they've done to the class has led to improving the auto-shot mechanic.
I believe this change is "working as intended" since Auto Shots are unlinked now. I am sure the Devs showed that this change was for the good of balancing hunters. This change was made a long time ago and a Blue has never said anything otherwise since.
That is basically the same BM build I have in my head for when I get home today. Only difference is I opted for the full 5/5 Kindred Spirits since I have found 1/2 GFTT (PTR testing) keeps my pets focus bar full. I have approx. 35.5% crit at level 70, but even a hunter has 30% or pretty close to that could use 1/2 GFTT and have enough focus. That way you are not giving up 4% extra damage boost for your pet.
The pet link you provided was for level 80, but I think I see where you were going with your build. The big question for level 70 ferocity pet is Rabid or CotW? 3/3 Spiders Bite and Avoidance is a given.
EDIT: Wording Fix
EDIT: Blytz, I saw your pet talent fix and I like the Rabid choice over CotW too.
Yeah the 5/5 KS - 1/2 GFtT vs 4/5 KS - 2/2 GFtT is just something I'm going to tweak around with today after patch goes live to test if I need more focus or not and I will make my final decision based on that. This also goes with getting a final decision on if CotW stacks with other raid buffs as I have heard both so far. Which will help me decide between Rabid and CotW.
Edit: Although ultimately I'm 90% sure I will be sticking with rabid.
Yeah the 5/5 KS - 1/2 GFtT vs 4/5 KS - 2/2 GFtT is just something I'm going to tweak around with today after patch goes live to test if I need more focus or not and make my final decision based on that. This also goes with getting a final decision on if CotW stacks with other raid buffs as I have heard both so far. Which will help me decide between Rabid and CotW.
Post again if you find an advantage going 2/2 GFTT. My testing on the PTR just seemed like a hunter with 30%+ crit would be providing a lot of focus causing some of that focus to be a major surplus. The 1/2 GFTT just seemed to provide a decent amount of focus to allow all pet abilities to fire off without delay.
It appears the CotW does stack independently, but the long CD concerns me whether it is a wisely budgeted talent point for level 70 raiding when Rabid can be macro'd into a shot macro and forced to fire off after every CD. There was a post by Aern that spoke of a 5 BM hunter CotW rotation in a Beta raid. I guess specing the pet for one or the other will depend on the number of hunters in the raid and the needs at the time. Will it be a net DPS lose for a BM hunter to take CotW over Rabid?
10/14/08, 5:04 AM
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