WotLK Talents & Abilities Discussion - Page 166

Shalafein · 10/14/08, 6:51 PM

Originally Posted by Aern

I definitely think your best use for kill command is during bestial wrath.

Wouldnt you want KC to go off tho everytime its ready?

Aern · 10/14/08, 6:58 PM

Originally Posted by Shalafein

Wouldnt you want KC to go off tho everytime its ready?

Its a one minute cd, and you'll be getting the most effect out of it with BW up so if you dont have any points in longevity, i guess it will work since you can sync every other KC with a bestial wrath, but with anything in longevity it gets a little messy.

Esoth · 10/14/08, 7:05 PM

All of the haste on T7 makes me wonder if Blizzard is encouraging us to go Marks/Survival, which will benefit from it for white damage as well as steady (2/1.15=1.74, so there is still a gap between the cast and the GCD outside of rapid fire). From what I've seen, other hunters just stay BM and pick up other gear though.

For my guild, we aren't likely to have an enhancement shaman nor will we have DKs for awhile so I am almost certainly going MM for awhile at least for TSA, as long as it is competitive with BM. This is the spec I've come up with (my apologies for not having thoroughly explored the countless spec ideas for several different builds). It takes the most obvious MM specs, and then I looked into going down either the BM tree or the SV or tree, or perhaps both. Using Shandara's spreadsheet, Unleashed Fury just appears to be an incredible talent, even for Marksmanship. It also adds some more pet survivability, and as we have seen, pets have become much more important for non-BM specs in Wrath. The Survival side just had too much filler, with LnL being way too far down the tree.

Shandara · 10/14/08, 7:14 PM

Originally Posted by RogueLeaderX

Has anyone tested to see if hunter pets are getting hit from Focused Aim? Based on the wording (increases your chance to hit) I'd say no, but Blizzard's wording isn't always 100% accurate.

If that's the case wouldn't 1/2 Animal Handler be worthwhile to offset hit gained from Focused Aim?

Granted that's a specialized situation (a hunter needs a talent to gain hit cap and wants his pet to be at or near hit cap as well.)

Yes. This has also been mentioned in this thread. The talent affects pets.

The only thing left to be tested is whether +hit food affects pets as well (it's likely to be so).

Dirty · 10/14/08, 7:59 PM

Could anyone confirm if pet loyalty (not happyness) is still in game, and if there is any use for it, now that we have talentpoints instead of skillpoints?

Rivkah · 10/14/08, 8:19 PM

Pet loyalty was removed from the game. Pet talent points are now only reliant on pet level.

Esoth · 10/14/08, 8:19 PM

Originally Posted by Dirty

Could anyone confirm if pet loyalty (not happyness) is still in game, and if there is any use for it, now that we have talentpoints instead of skillpoints?

It's not

alienangel · 10/14/08, 8:39 PM

Originally Posted by mako

To optimize your MM build a bit more, you should seriously consider ditching all points in the BM tree 70. The 2% damage lost from focused fire is made up from the last two in improved tracking. IHM is no longer an increase to our shot rotation, since auto is unlinked. A chance to increase white attacks (and ammo consumption) is not quite vital. With 5 in Survival, you can pick up Survival Tactics for another 4% steady shot crit instead.

Quoting your post for convenience, but several others have said this too, and I'm just not seeing it in the spreadsheet - a spec like http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?hunt...10251105030251 is still working out better for me (current armory gear, but felspine instead of shivs and non-armor pen rings) than the same spec without Imp Hawk and FF, and with Full Imp Tracking and some more points in MM. The difference isn't huge, but it's ~35 spreadsheet dps.

(if you're wondering, the single point in Piercing is there because I can't meet talent tier reqs if I just put 0 in piercing and 3 in Imp Steady as I'd like to).

Granted the spec has very poor mana regen, but if JoW goes live without the internal cooldown on it, mana shouldn't be a problem hopefully.

Perhaps I'm not setting up my shot rotation in the spreadsheet correctly? I have my priority set as RF, Chimera, Steady and Serpent, using all level 70 ranks only (spreadsheet didn't seem to select the right ranks on everything correctly when I used the "Automatic Spell Rank Selection" option) and no glyphs (since I don't expect to find all the glyphs I want for a few days anyway, not that the glyphs are particularly great pre-wrath).

(edit: damn, I'm using version 73f of the spreadsheet, and apparently we're up to 74b now, so maybe that's the difference)

In the same gear, I have BM beating that MM spec by about 80 dps as: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?hunt...00000000000000

Aern · 10/14/08, 9:12 PM

Has anyone been able to run a scropid through the spreadsheet and compare its dps to a cat, see what the dps of each pet is looking like side by side. I guess try it with both a feral in the raid and not in the raid to see what the difference in the cat's dps is with rake getting buffed by the feral's bleed debuff and not getting it. Would really like to see some solid numbers on which pet im gonna be going with for raiding.

KraxisSingular · 10/14/08, 9:30 PM

Originally Posted by Esoth

All of the haste on T7 makes me wonder if Blizzard is encouraging us to go Marks/Survival, which will benefit from it for white damage as well as steady (2/1.15=1.74, so there is still a gap between the cast and the GCD outside of rapid fire). From what I've seen, other hunters just stay BM and pick up other gear though.

For my guild, we aren't likely to have an enhancement shaman nor will we have DKs for awhile so I am almost certainly going MM for awhile at least for TSA, as long as it is competitive with BM. This is the spec I've come up with (my apologies for not having thoroughly explored the countless spec ideas for several different builds). It takes the most obvious MM specs, and then I looked into going down either the BM tree or the SV or tree, or perhaps both. Using Shandara's spreadsheet, Unleashed Fury just appears to be an incredible talent, even for Marksmanship. It also adds some more pet survivability, and as we have seen, pets have become much more important for non-BM specs in Wrath. The Survival side just had too much filler, with LnL being way too far down the tree.

Most people only go 7 points into Surv anyway.

The big cutoff is if Unleashed Fury can match the 5% DoTless damage of Improved Tracking. For them to even out your pet needs to do, pre both talents, around 20% of your DPS (a little less is ok since Serpent Sting isn't affected by Imp Tracking). Can MM pets manage that? The numbers I have seen is that they are nearing it (definately up from TBC)... but is it enough?
Both talents require certain conditions to be met. One requires the pet to be alive (though there should be plenty incentive to keep it going already with FF) the other that you track the target. Both are more or less single target. One is easier to manage with several mobs of different types (no loss of GCD changing tracking). The other lets your personal skill with your mana and abilities affect your DPS more clearly (not that managing the pet isn't affecting DPS, but it is harder to twist that small extra amount by changing playstyle compared to how you shoot etc). Unleashed Fury doesn't suffer from minimap cluttering and buttonmashing changing tracking all the time.

I would say that if you pet can manage 20% without either talent then it might just be more convenient than Imp Tracking in most play and at worst, as bad in troubles. But you will suffer significantly more on pet-unfriendly fights.
Overall I like that this minor BM spec looks to be viable. I might indeed try it out.

Maybe I am wrong and please feel free to correct me if I am. But until Wotlk comes out, Putting 3 pts into longevity before you are raiding seems pointless. Granted in the end game boss fights it will definitely be points well spent. But since 70-80 is mostly grinding short fight wouldnt the points be better spent elsewhere?

It is clear where your point comes from... BW and it's cooldown. But that is mainly the DPS aspect of this talent. DPS is generally not the issue when leveling, utility and burst is. And Longevity actually helps in both departments too. The lowering of certain pet cooldowns like the Gorilla's Thunderstomp will really help out a lot for leveling. Also it appears to affect Growl (or was that changed again?). So you should see plenty reason to pick it for leveling. And using BW while leveling isn't a bad idea if you fight hard mobs, it will help your mana usage. But of course it is a bit more iffy... However a Gorilladin in BW Thunderstoming with KC/Cobra Strikes up... OUCH!!!! The AoE damage is pretty awesome.

Esoth · 10/14/08, 9:48 PM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

Most people only go 7 points into Surv anyway.

The big cutoff is if Unleashed Fury can match the 5% DoTless damage of Improved Tracking. For them to even out your pet needs to do, pre both talents, around 20% of your DPS (a little less is ok since Serpent Sting isn't affected by Imp Tracking). Can MM pets manage that? The numbers I have seen is that they are nearing it (definately up from TBC)... but is it enough?

Both talents require certain conditions to be met. One requires the pet to be alive (though there should be plenty incentive to keep it going already with FF) the other that you track the target. Both are more or less single target. One is easier to manage with several mobs of different types (no loss of GCD changing tracking). The other lets your personal skill with your mana and abilities affect your DPS more clearly (not that managing the pet isn't affecting DPS, but it is harder to twist that small extra amount by changing playstyle compared to how you shoot etc). Unleashed Fury doesn't suffer from minimap cluttering and buttonmashing changing tracking all the time.

I would say that if you pet can manage 20% without either talent then it might just be more convenient than Imp Tracking in most play and at worst, as bad in troubles. But you will suffer significantly more on pet-unfriendly fights.
Overall I like that this minor BM spec looks to be viable. I might indeed try it out.

Using the spreadsheet, Unleashed Fury beats out Imp Tracking, even for Marks. I did not know serpent sting did not benefit from imp tracking... that's pretty weak.

You have a lot of survivability for your pet going that way - the same as BM almost, just no imp mend pet or spirit bond (which are probably the weakest, compared to bloodthirsty, heart of the phoenix, and imp revive pet - not to mention one "throw away" point in endurance training).

Pet-unfriendly fights is still a valid concern, have to see how that plays out with all of the new pet talents.

KraxisSingular · 10/14/08, 10:05 PM

Remember that Spirit Bond still affects Bloodthirsty and Mend Pet of course. 10% extra healing is definately not bad, and the funny thing is that it stacks with itself. Meaning If a pet has 10k HP and Spirit Bond ticks, it would previously have ticked for 200, well now it ticks for 220. Effectively it ticks for 2.2% on both of you. Not a big thing, but worth mentioning I would say.

Btw, after watching one of BRK's pet movies I noticed that Bloodthirsty appears to have 5 ticks of 1% healing each per second (and some happiness, though I couldn't see how much it was worth). So basically Bloodthirsty isn't really worth having proccing more than one every 5 seconds. Incidentally that is pretty close to the theoretical proctime for 1/2 Bloodthirsty in a raidsetting with WF.

So the value of 2/2 Bloodthirsty is debateable, not because Bloodthirsty isn't good, but because of the HoT nature it has.

Esoth · 10/14/08, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

So the value of 2/2 Bloodthirsty is debateable, not because Bloodthirsty isn't good, but because of the HoT nature it has.

Yes, I've wondered if 1/2 would be better; but more so because of the happiness. I do not have an exact number (I'll test after our raid tonight if no one beats me to it) but on beta I was getting a newly trained pet (unhappy) to happy by killing just a couple mobs. Unless, someone has a number already?

Bikiniwax · 10/14/08, 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by Mattaos

Improved Aspect of the Hawk - Rank 5/5 – Still a DPS increase
While Aspect of the Hawk is active, all normal ranged attacks have a 10% chance of increasing ranged attack speed by 15% for 12 sec.

Endurance Training - Rank 1/5 – Dump Piont
Increases the Health of your pet by 2% and your total health by 1%.

Focused Fire - Rank 2/2 - Must Have Talent
All damage caused by you is increased by 2% while your pet is active and the critical strike chance of your pet's special abilities is increased by 20% while Kill Command is active.

Improved Revive Pet - Rank 2/2 - Raid Must & Point Allocation to move on to the next tier
Revive Pet's casting time is reduced by 6 sec, mana cost is reduced by 40%, and increases the health your pet returns with by an additional 30%.

Aspect Mastery - Rank 1/1 - DPS increase for AotH & AotV
Aspect of the Viper - Reduces the damage penalty by 10%.

Aspect of the Monkey - Reduces the damage done to you while active by 5%.

Aspect of the Hawk - Increases the attack power bonus by 30%.

Unleashed Fury - Rank 5/5 - BM Staple Talent
Increases the damage done by your pets by 20%.

Improved Mend Pet - Rank 1/2 - With Spirit Bond = Less Mends and added healing from raid heals
Reduces the mana cost of your Mend Pet spell by 20% and gives the Mend Pet spell a 50% chance of cleansing 1 Curse, Disease, Magic or Poison effect from the pet each tick.

Ferocity - Rank 5/5 - BM Staple Talent
Increases the critical strike chance of your pet by 10%.

Spirit Bond - Rank 2/2 - Huge Pet survivability Talent
While your pet is active, you and your pet will regenerate 2% of total health every 10 sec., and increases healing done to you and your pet by 10%.

Intimidation - Rank 1/1 - BM Staple Talent
Command your pet to intimidate the target on the next successful melee attack, causing a high amount of threat and stunning the target for 3 sec.

Bestial Discipline - Rank 2/2 - BM Staple Talent
Increases the Focus regeneration of your pets by 100%.

Frenzy - Rank 4/5 - Same as post 3.0, since I am only 2/3 Cobra Strikes
Gives your pet a 60% chance to gain a 30% attack speed increase for 8 sec after dealing a critical strike.

Ferocious Inspiration - Rank 3/3 - BM Staple Talent
When your pet scores a critical hit, all party members have all damage increased by 3% for 10 sec.

Bestial Wrath - Rank 1/1 - BM Staple Talent
Send your pet into a rage causing 50% additional damage for 18 sec. While enraged, the beast does not feel pity or remorse or fear and it cannot be stopped unless killed.

Serpent's Swiftness - Rank 5/5 - BM Staple Talent
Increases ranged combat attack speed by 20% and your pet's melee attack speed by 20%.

Longevity - Rank 2/3 - For level 70, 2 pts is enough to be a DPS gain and free up 1 pt
Reduces the cooldown of your Bestial Wrath, Intimidation and Pet Special Abilities by 20%.

The Beast Within - Rank 1/1 - BM Staple Talent
When your pet is under the effects of Bestial Wrath, you also go into a rage causing 10% additional damage and reducing mana costs of all spells by 20% for 18 sec. While enraged, you do not feel pity or remorse or fear and you cannot be stopped unless killed.

Cobra Strikes - Rank 2/3 - 40% chance to proc & approx. 45% crit chance raid buffed
You have a 40% chance when you critically hit with Arcane Shot, Steady Shot or Kill Shot to cause your pet's next 2 special attacks to critically hit.

Kindred Spirits - Rank 5/5 - Huge DPS Gain
Increases your pet's damage by 20% and you and your pet's movement speed by 10% while your pet is active. This does not stack with other movement speed increasing effects.

Marksmanship (11 points)

Lethal Shots - Rank 5/5 - BM Staple Talent
Increases your critical strike chance with ranged weapons by 5%.

Careful Aim - Rank 3/3 - DPS Gain @ 100%
Increases your ranged attack power by an amount equal to 100% of your total Intellect.

Mortal Shots - Rank 2/5 - 2 extra pts for 12% crit bonus, since hit capped via gear (no Focus Aim)
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your ranged abilities by 12%.

Go for the Throat - Rank ½ - ½ is all that is needed at the right crit to focus gen ratio… 35.5% crit unbuffed = plenty of focus
Your ranged critical hits cause your pet to generate 25 Focus.

NOTE: Kindred Spirits is an obvious DPS gain for a BM hunter as this talent scales well with Ferocity pets and Ferocity talent. IMO this talent should not be overlooked for a raiding hunter, since there really is not other talents to supplement the DPS loss.

For level 70 and having limited points to incorporate the new talent trees splitting Longevity and Cobra Strikes seemed as the best choice. 2/3 Longevity is enough of a reduction to allow 1-2 extra BWs per fight, but going 3/3 will take a point out of Cobra Strikes. IMO 3/3 Cobra Strikes is optimal, but since I am limited on talent points at 70 I am opting for 2/3 for a 40% chance to proc. This better than skipping Cobra Strikes all together.

Maxing Careful Aim is a point-for-point DPS gain overall. Mortal Shots is only going effect our Steady Shots (and Arcane Shots if worked into the rotation), so I dropped my 2 floating points in MS for at least a 12% crit bonus along with my Meta.

IMO 1 point is all that is needed in GFTT to sustain adequate focus gen to maintain pet specials consistently. I can only see going 2/2 GFTT if a hunter's crit is under 28% or so.

Invigoration is not a major concern for a level 70 raiding build, since A.) mana pools are much smaller atm and B.) raid replenishment is enough to sustain DPS before switching to AotV. These 2 points are better used else where, i.e. 2/3 Longevity.

From what I have read, 3/3 Longevity is almost necessary if using a Cat otherwise you lose the last tick or two of the Rabid DOT. I would put 3/3 in Longevity and drop 1 point in Cobra Strikes.

Mattaos · 10/14/08, 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by Bikiniwax

From what I have read, 3/3 Longevity is almost necessary if using a Cat otherwise you lose the last tick or two of the Rabid DOT. I would put 3/3 in Longevity and drop 1 point in Cobra Strikes.

2/3 would reduce Rabid to 36 sec and 3/3 would reduce it to like 32 sec. Rabid is a 20 sec duration with a 50% chance to add 5% dmg bonus. Either time frame is going to end in the same result as far as the talent works.

Longevity has a much better effect on long BW and pet specials. From what I can see Rabid will operate basically the same either way you go with Longevity. Do you have a link to the thread where you saw the information about Rabid & Longevity?

Rezdan · 10/15/08, 12:24 AM

Originally Posted by Bikiniwax

From what I have read, 3/3 Longevity is almost necessary if using a Cat otherwise you lose the last tick or two of the Rabid DOT. I would put 3/3 in Longevity and drop 1 point in Cobra Strikes.

I believe you've mixed up Rake and Rabid.

Edit: FINAL? info on Rake - thanks Dev

Originally Posted by Dev

As i understood it, its like "2/3 makes the 3rd tick being skipped" -> DPS loss
3/3 does that too - but like 1 sec earlier, so next Rake comes earlier -> DPS gain

Mattaos · 10/15/08, 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by Rezdan

I believe you've mixed up Rake and Rabid.

What I had heard was that 3/3 Longevity loses the last tick of RAKE. Meaning you'd be fine with 2/3.

Is this not how it really is?

EDIT: Reading Devs post below I see the mistake I made in that 3/3 Longevity reduces the CD of a 10 sec pet special to 7 sec, not 6 sec. This makes much more sense, since the second tick is actually able to complete before being refreshed. I see the logic in the math supporting 3/3 Longevity.

Devastor · 10/15/08, 12:42 AM

the following was about Longevity and Pets regarding the WOTLK spreadsheet

Originally Posted by Devastor

i'm confused again, using 74b.

Longevity:

1/3: Me +1DPS | Pet +15dps
2/3: Me +4DPS | Pet -13DPS !!!
3/3: Me +2DPS | Pet +50DPS

this seems strange to me.
I understand, that with different CDs, Buffs "collide" in a better/worse way (Like +AP trinket and BW/TBW...)
But the "jumps" are really strange.

From 1/3 to 2/3 points actually decreases Pet-DPS by 13DPS, or in other words: 2/3 is +2 Pet-dps vs 0/3
And then the abnormal jump from 2/3 to 3/3...

Originally Posted by Shandara

It has to do with Rake. With Longevity at 2/3 or 3/3 you miss the last tick because it's refreshed before it ticks for the 3rd time.

I could offer a big explanation, but after looking at the code it's not quite what I want it do. I'll re-do it for the next release.

Originally Posted by Shandara

The calculation in the sheet as it is now is correct, it's just a bit kludgy. The results won't change.

It comes from the fact that Rake ticks 3 times. Every 3 seconds for 9 seconds. Now if you have 2/3 or 3/3 Longevity (i.e. 8 or 7 sec cooldown) you'll cut off the last part of the Rake DoT.

In case of the 2/3 and coupled with pet GCD you waste nearly a whole tick (at a 1.25 sec pet GCD Rake will fire in ideal situations every 8.75 seconds). You'd have gotten the 3rd tick at 9 seconds so you waste 2.75 seconds of time. This is what leads to the dps LOSS.

In case of 3/3 Longevity it's the same, but with a 7 sec cooldown you waste less time. But, at the same time you get an added benefit from the reduced CD on Bestial Wrath/Rapid Fire, because of how the cooldowns line up. This leads to the substantial DPS boost.

This is all in theory and in the sheet of course. Testing will have to determine whether or not it's close enough to the truth.

As you can see in the first quote, what i came up with was that 1/3 is only a very slight DPSgain, while 2/3 nearly completely negated that gain.
But then 3/3 was a tremendous gain again.

As i understood it, its like "2/3 makes the 3rd tick being skipped" -> DPS loss
3/3 does that too - but like 1 sec earlier, so next Rake comes earlier -> DPS gain

Devastor · 10/15/08, 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by Mattaos

Well, technically any points (except 1/3) in Longevity will lower the CD of Rake under the 9 sec. duration. 2/3 reduces the CD to 8 sec. so you are actually refreshing the last tick 1 sec before it drops off. The net gain from having BW up earlier is greater than the lose of 1 tick of Rakes bleed effect. But, see what you saying because 3/3 reduces the CD to 6 sec and would possibly refresh before the second tick.

IIRC, 3/3 Longevity lowers the Rake cooldown to 7, not 6 secs (been a while since i actually tested on the ptr)

Tukela · 10/15/08, 1:55 AM

I was just messing around on beta and discovered I could not stack an Agility scroll AND a Strength scroll on my pet. Perhaps that is an overall 3.0 buff change that many are aware of already.

Threepi · 10/15/08, 2:05 AM

So, I tried out a 0/31/30 spec on my hunter (primarily in BT/MH T6 gear, not adequately gemmed) and self-buffed I have 38% agi and 2900 RAP (TSA/AotH). Crit was about normal from before I took a break from WoW, but RAP is like 800 points higher. The question is, is such a raw increase in stats going to offset some of the deeper MM talents? Until I start getting mods to work, and lag dies down I guess I just won't know.

Khassandra · 10/15/08, 3:09 AM

Originally Posted by Tukela

I was just messing around on beta and discovered I could not stack an Agility scroll AND a Strength scroll on my pet. Perhaps that is an overall 3.0 buff change that many are aware of already.

Couldn't stack scrolls on people either last I tried in beta.

Lohegrin · 10/15/08, 3:15 AM

I was thinking, with the new talents for increased pet dps and so on, is it possible that the Beast-Tamer's Shoulders from MH is best in slot for BM in 3.0?

I can really imagine they are but it would feel really shitty to put my twins shoulders on the shelf :|

Dirty · 10/15/08, 3:29 AM

What's the news on the new armor penetration rating btw? I have got it stacked quite high (had 1449 prepatch), but am wondering if it really is going to be nerfed as most of my guildmembers said it would be, I couldn't seem to find a formula for the conversion either, and a definite answer as to what actually changed.

Dirt

Chul · 10/15/08, 3:33 AM

Originally Posted by Lohegrin

I was thinking, with the new talents for increased pet dps and so on, is it possible that the Beast-Tamer's Shoulders from MH is best in slot for BM in 3.0?

Yes, but only when used with OP pets like cats and scorpids. Using a "normal" pet [Mantle of the Golden Forest] ends up top.