Without thinking too deeply, auto + 2 steadies was -10% base + 18% max. Now it's -10% base, + 13% max. So not small at all. Of course with SS, quiver, and windfury it's more like 1.6 autoshots per listed weapon speed, so a 3.0 weapon would have been +21.6 max; now +14.8%.
I'm not sure the 4% max mana every 3 sec is going to be a real fix for the pvp mana issue, but can be wrong. Fact is that is gonna be a completely different playstyle from what we are used to.
We got increased burst potential and slight more mobility, but we gotta use it at the right time. Getting oom seems still really likely gamebraking. We will probably forced in AotV for the entire fight, basically ignoring the damage we do untill we can go for a kill with healer OOM (is viper sting affected by AotV penalty by the way?).
As for 3.0 don't bother much with raid performance. I would actually spec for as max survivability as possible, with 30% hp nerf on bosses, no crushing blows, improved tank aggro and new specs, raid encounters gonna be a breeze as long as you can survive the boss abilities.
Did anyone think that maybe the fact it looks like we keep shooting while channeling volley is because they want it to _look_ like we are shooting a _volley_ of arrows rather than just standing there. It might not be autoshot bugging, it could just be the new animation
20 pages and i haven't seen more than 3 non BM centric posts. It's time to split the thread, or atleast have a place that's findable to point out where MM and SVers can go.
That and I still don't understand WHY haste is bad outside of BM. My shot speed 2.4, nowhere near 1.5 so I should still be experiencing gains...oh wait, new firing mechanic that I can't find information on because I'm not BM. I mean to sound bitter, because you guys are already revving into high gear about BM and other forums...are really subpar in their info giving.
20 pages and i haven't seen more than 3 non BM centric posts. It's time to split the thread, or atleast have a place that's findable to point out where MM and SVers can go.
That and I still don't understand WHY haste is bad outside of BM. My shot speed 2.4, nowhere near 1.5 so I should still be experiencing gains...oh wait, new firing mechanic that I can't find information on because I'm not BM. I mean to sound bitter, because you guys are already revving into high gear about BM and other forums...are really subpar in their info giving.
Basically, mechanics are the same for all 3 specs. Haste has the same effect on auto shot, which scales indefinitely (at least we can't get it low enough) for BM or MM or SV. I wonder if there's a lower limit on the firing speed.
It also affects Steady Shot the same for all 3 specs, with the only caveat that BM will be closer to the GCD through Serpent's Swiftness. So it's rather that haste isn't as useful for BM as it is for MM or SV.
The only thing that differentiates the 3 specs is their 'special talent', i.e. Explosive for SV and Chimera for MM and the pet for BM. This is what changes their rotation. There's gear differences of course and suitable specs for each, but it isn't the massive difference that there was pre-WotLK.
20 pages and i haven't seen more than 3 non BM centric posts. It's time to split the thread, or atleast have a place that's findable to point out where MM and SVers can go.
That and I still don't understand WHY haste is bad outside of BM. My shot speed 2.4, nowhere near 1.5 so I should still be experiencing gains...oh wait, new firing mechanic that I can't find information on because I'm not BM. I mean to sound bitter, because you guys are already revving into high gear about BM and other forums...are really subpar in their info giving.
Haste is bad because the GCD of shots is stuck at 1.5 seconds. Throw in a quiver and windfury and even a 2 second steady is below GCD, for anyone. That's why haste is maligned so much, not because people are assuming SS. Does it have marginal use for pvp or something when you can't assume a haste effect? Sure, a bit, but that's never been much of a focus here.
Basically, mechanics are the same for all 3 specs. Haste has the same effect on auto shot, which scales indefinitely (at least we can't get it low enough) for BM or MM or SV. I wonder if there's a lower limit on the firing speed.
It also affects Steady Shot the same for all 3 specs, with the only caveat that BM will be closer to the GCD through Serpent's Swiftness. So it's rather that haste isn't as useful for BM as it is for MM or SV.
The only thing that differentiates the 3 specs is their 'special talent', i.e. Explosive for SV and Chimera for MM and the pet for BM. This is what changes their rotation. There's gear differences of course and suitable specs for each, but it isn't the massive difference that there was pre-WotLK.
In short, auto shot fires faster for everyone. And steady shot's cast length is shrunk via haste. So for me it is not this terrbile stat that the last so many pages have made it out to be? I know I'm forcing you to answer a series of questions, but I want to make sure I am understanding what you are saying.
Just to be even more sure, Terp I ain't BM until we can switch back and forth between specs. So, for NON BMers, Haste is still good up until WF is activate in which case my 140ish passive haste pushes my shot speed below 1.5, which is bad because the GCD is not moving. Yes I ask questions that you've already answered just to be certain I interpret them correctly. Feel free to say yes if I hit the nail on the head.
I assume gear is to be checked within the spreadsheet? But I did noticed something in game. I have 939 agility, but only gained 929 ap from it. Er go diminishing returns has reached me in a big way. Where can I go to compare attributes value to each other at different values. In a vaccuum because reall, real world would be like..insanely time consuming. For the raid.
That and I tried just using a steady/auto rotation on the dummy, tossing in arcane shot when I can (forgot I even have explosive shot half the time, it'll come later) and I just couldn't 'feel' my hitting a groove or finding an ideal rotation. I don't even know what I'm looking for here anymore.
In short, auto shot fires faster for everyone. And steady shot's cast length is shrunk via haste. So for me it is not this terrbile stat that the last so many pages have made it out to be? I know I'm forcing you to answer a series of questions, but I want to make sure I am understanding what you are saying.
Just to be even more sure, Terp I ain't BM until we can switch back and forth between specs. So, for NON BMers, Haste is still good up until WF is activate in which case my 140ish passive haste pushes my shot speed below 1.5, which is bad because the GCD is not moving. Yes I ask questions that you've already answered just to be certain I interpret them correctly. Feel free to say yes if I hit the nail on the head.
I assume gear is to be checked within the spreadsheet? But I did noticed something in game. I have 939 agility, but only gained 929 ap from it. Er go diminishing returns has reached me in a big way. Where can I go to compare attributes value to each other at different values. In a vaccuum because reall, real world would be like..insanely time consuming. For the raid.
That and I tried just using a steady/auto rotation on the dummy, tossing in arcane shot when I can (forgot I even have explosive shot half the time, it'll come later) and I just couldn't 'feel' my hitting a groove or finding an ideal rotation. I don't even know what I'm looking for here anymore.
Steady Shot cast time is shrunk by haste, but capped at 1.5seconds because of the GCD.
The reason haste is not a 'great' stat is because of this. Also, it doesn't affect your pet or your instant shots in any major way (outside of procs triggering from auto shots/steady shots). It's not a bad stat, it's just a B-quality stat compared to hit or agility or AP/crit. Our main gripe is the fact that we get tons of it on practically every piece of gear at level 80.
Your in game agility for some reason only gives +AP from 10 points onwards. The first 10 points don't count. I can't remember what the reason was, but there it is.
The main change to hunters is the fact that we don't really need a 'groove' any more for our rotation. It has been greatly simplified by unlinking autoshot. Rejoice! Also, Blizzard has made some of our special/talented shots better than our filler (Steady Shot) so you have reason to use them.
I say some, because Multi-Shot and Arcane Shot are still lackluster.
It turns us into 'casters' when it comes to rotations. We're managing cooldowns on our shots and reacting to procs.
I went on live to see if Scorpids were behaving the same - only got to do a tiny bit of testing before the world server crashed. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft this is my build.
level 70 pet, level 70 test dummy (9+.05*970)*1.25*1.05*1.09*5=411
Multipliers: Happiness, Marked for Death, Spiked Collar, 5 stacks
Observed: ticks for 379 and 380
The 5% AP conversion is what Chul had posted in his formula - no idea if this is correct. Either way, something is wrong with the formula or with my math... but scorpid poison appears to remain OP regardless.
Shan; No more...groove? Here we go, now it's starting to click. So, my best bet is explosive ( i dont have aimed) steady, auto (which casts on its own), arcane. There is no ideal time to cast steady watching the auto shot timer. Just ...lots of spamming different shots while waiting on cooldowns?
That seems, button heavy. I'm cool with that, but it's ...utterly different from how hit's been. I have gotten too used to steady/auto spam with tossed in arcane when it's up. This seems intuitive....but at being a raid level player before now, I have to unlearn what I spent over a year figuring out? Seriously?
Yes. Shot rotations is the Burning Crusade sense is out the window. Auto is unlinked, so you just gotta get a right balance between CD's of all your shots to make them not clip one another.
Shan; No more...groove? Here we go, now it's starting to click. So, my best bet is explosive ( i dont have aimed) steady, auto (which casts on its own), arcane. There is no ideal time to cast steady watching the auto shot timer. Just ...lots of spamming different shots while waiting on cooldowns?
That seems, button heavy. I'm cool with that, but it's ...utterly different from how hit's been. I have gotten too used to steady/auto spam with tossed in arcane when it's up. This seems intuitive....but at being a raid level player before now, I have to unlearn what I spent over a year figuring out? Seriously?
Arcane is still rather weak for the mana. I would at the moment not use it. Later there might be changes, but it scales too bad at this time.
Haste is bad because the GCD of shots is stuck at 1.5 seconds. Throw in a quiver and windfury and even a 2 second steady is below GCD, for anyone. That's why haste is maligned so much, not because people are assuming SS. Does it have marginal use for pvp or something when you can't assume a haste effect? Sure, a bit, but that's never been much of a focus here.
I thought that windfury was melee only? has that been changed?
Shan; No more...groove? Here we go, now it's starting to click. So, my best bet is explosive ( i dont have aimed) steady, auto (which casts on its own), arcane. There is no ideal time to cast steady watching the auto shot timer. Just ...lots of spamming different shots while waiting on cooldowns?
That seems, button heavy. I'm cool with that, but it's ...utterly different from how hit's been. I have gotten too used to steady/auto spam with tossed in arcane when it's up. This seems intuitive....but at being a raid level player before now, I have to unlearn what I spent over a year figuring out? Seriously?
It should not take that long to "unlearn" honestly. If you are able to understand TBC mechanics of our shot rotations and execute them (especially the old 1.5:1 rotation for MM and SV) then switching over to the new mechanics should be a walk in the park.
Think of it this way. In TBC, you had to keep track of your Auto Shot cast time, your Steady Shot cast time, the GCD, and any other shots you chose to insert into the rotation while using either macros to execute the rotation or playing to the metronome of your Auto Shot. In WLK you basically have to keep track of your Steady Shot cast time and any other shots you use simplifying.
As for being button heavy, perhaps, but not the extent its unmanageable. For example, I have 4 buttons to press as SV besides pet attack/recall. Hunter's Mark, Steady Shot, Serpent's Sting, and Explosive Shot. As BM I used 3 buttons on my last go. Hunter's Mark, Steady Shot and TBW/Rapid Fire/KC/trinket macro.
Point being, switching to these new mechanics should be rather painless for anyone who understands the mechanics from TBC.
Look for the post by Tobin. It looks like there's some kind of weired bug with the auto-shot/autoattack option that's messing with auto-shot at the moment.
Also, I just noticed something. AotV is now a level 20 spell, but the tooltip on live says 40% damage reduction instead of 50%. I'm in the process of testing. will edit with results.
*edit* nevermind. I'm retarded. I completely forgot I picked up aspect mastery when I specced a few minutes ago.
That's frustrating to hear because I discovered that with the Auto Shot/Attack switching option enabled it automatically tab-targets to a new target if you keep spamming abilities after your current target dies.
If, on the other hand, you disable the option, this no longer occurs but apparently puts you at risk of clipping/losing Auto Shots.
I thought that windfury was melee only? has that been changed?
It's always effected ranged as well as melee haste, at least since the change from being an extra attack.
It's called Bloodlust, not Heroism. What kind of pansy name is Heroism, anyway?
<Bad> Dragonmaw US www.damnwesuck.com
12/13 [25] Heroic - Recruiting exceptional players.
Shan; No more...groove? Here we go, now it's starting to click. So, my best bet is explosive ( i dont have aimed) steady, auto (which casts on its own), arcane. There is no ideal time to cast steady watching the auto shot timer. Just ...lots of spamming different shots while waiting on cooldowns?
That seems, button heavy. I'm cool with that, but it's ...utterly different from how hit's been. I have gotten too used to steady/auto spam with tossed in arcane when it's up. This seems intuitive....but at being a raid level player before now, I have to unlearn what I spent over a year figuring out? Seriously?
I think you're overthinking things due to not having got your head around the autoshot unlink change yet. Basically, at the start of a fight, you press autoshot, and then pretend you're a mage. Once you've started a fight, you just concentrate on pressing steady shot every GCD unless chimera/explosive is off cooldown or you need to reapply serpent (unless you're adding some other shot to your rotation). Autoshots "just happen", the only way you can stop them from happening is by moving in the half second before they fire, firing any kind of shot will have no effect on them, if you're half way through casting steady and an auto shot is due, it fires half way through a steady cast.
It's really no different fro what you currently do, considering that as SV you won't have arcane in your rotation since it shares a CD with explosive. The only difference between the old spamming a steady macro and adding arcane when it's ready and the new spamming steady and adding explosive when it's ready is that you no longer need to select an appropriate macro, your macro essentially becomes "/cast Steady Shot"
I just got hit with something that will need some testing (too bad my own server is crapola after the patch, can't really do anything).
The main issue with BM at 70 is the fact that is denies us GftT. There is no option here, GftT is just that important.
However I have found a little loophole that might make BM worth it. I'm not saying it is worth it, that will require some testing. But look at this Cunning pet with BM points at 70. The kicker here is Owls's Focus. 30% chance for free specials? That should in general make up for the loss of GftT if you have 2/2 BD. However this isn't tested, and there is the issue with Cunning pets and their DPS, they might just not be as powerful. And they are more sensitive to Happiness losses and deaths.
I just got hit with something that will need some testing (too bad my own server is crapola after the patch, can't really do anything).
The main issue with BM at 70 is the fact that is denies us GftT. There is no option here, GftT is just that important.
However I have found a little loophole that might make BM worth it. I'm not saying it is worth it, that will require some testing. But look at this Cunning pet with BM points at 70. The kicker here is Owls's Focus. 30% chance for free specials? That should in general make up for the loss of GftT if you have 2/2 BD. However this isn't tested, and there is the issue with Cunning pets and their DPS, they might just not be as powerful. And they are more sensitive to Happiness losses and deaths.
While I'd love for it to be a viable choice, I don't think it's comparable in terms of dps.
Cunning pets do *need* the extra points to get most of their "dps" talents, but even still it's no contest between ferocity. You lose rabid and 9% crit, in return for a 30% mana return roughly once per fight and your pet gaining molten fury. Owl's focus may feasibly provide enough focus to live without having gftt, but rake is apparently still broken to the point where it's beating monstrous bite, so there's a huge gap to overcome. I don't think wind serpent's lightning breath would overcome it.
Assuming my server is functioning tonight and we are able to raid, I'll probably try the 51/10/0 with cunning pet on a boss or two in sunwell for kicks.
It's called Bloodlust, not Heroism. What kind of pansy name is Heroism, anyway?
<Bad> Dragonmaw US www.damnwesuck.com
12/13 [25] Heroic - Recruiting exceptional players.
So should I delete all my old hunter macros that I used to just spam with my scroll button? I used the 3:2 macro as a BM hunter forever, and was always in the top 5 with it.
Now will i simply spam all my shots when they are up, with SS taking priority? There is no hunter macro now, just the player managing his cooldowns?
So should I delete all my old hunter macros that I used to just spam with my scroll button? I used the 3:2 macro as a BM hunter forever, and was always in the top 5 with it.
Now will i simply spam all my shots when they are up, with SS taking priority? There is no hunter macro now, just the player managing his cooldowns?
Thanks a lot!
Any macro that has "/cast !Auto Shot" or something similar needs to be adjusted, as we no longer have to worry about auto-shot clipping.
So should I delete all my old hunter macros that I used to just spam with my scroll button? I used the 3:2 macro as a BM hunter forever, and was always in the top 5 with it.
Now will i simply spam all my shots when they are up, with SS taking priority? There is no hunter macro now, just the player managing his cooldowns?
Thanks a lot!
My 3:2 macro actually still works well because it doesn't attempt to prevent Steady from clipping Auto, but it's arguably overkill now since you can technically replace it with just Steady Shot by itself and trigger any cooldowns manually (as you said). I'm still using my macro for now though because it has Kill Command and Tranquilizing Shot included (disclaimer: I don't PvP), with KC set to only cast if my pet has something targeted that's hostile (I need to re-test to make sure this still works as intended though edit: I don't think it will because KC is no longer an attack ability).
On beta I specc'd Survival and don't use a macro, and spamming Steady in between cooldowns seems to work fine. It's hard to remember to trigger KC manually though.
Originally Posted by Aerynlore
Any macro that has "/cast !Auto Shot" or something similar needs to be adjusted, as we no longer have to worry about auto-shot clipping.
Only "/castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot" style macros should be obsolete. "/cast !Auto Shot" just turns Auto on and leaves it on if you spam it; it doesn't actually cause the macro to wait for the Auto to go off.
Actually I just looked at my macro again and it occurs to me that because KC is no longer an attack ability, it probably can't be restricted to casting only when your pet is targeting something. As a result, there's not much point in continuing to use my macro unless you don't care about triggering KC early and/or want to have Tranq Shot macro'd via /castrandom.
In summary, you're probably safe replacing most macros with just Steady Shot if you can adjust to casting KC manually.
10/15/08, 9:41 AM
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