See:

Well as blizzard has said numerous times, mechanics are the hard part. Balancing the numbers is relatively easy.

Ok, so now that shots don't clip I am wondering the effects of haste on DPS.
Is haste now king? In today's BT raid I used the 50/11 BM build with the following macro on spam:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/startattack
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Rabid
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear();

I was able to produce about 2800DPS on Teron Grofiend. I would gladly link the WWS but it seems to be bugged and won't allow us t upload combat logs right now (Another story I guess). Man I should take a sec to say how EASY BT was today. Even though we have server connection issues we cleared the whole thing in about 2 hours. Just sick... Talk about a nerf (LOL)

Back to my point.
Basically my DPS is centered around Steady/Auto while managing BW, Rabid, Rapid Fire, Trinkets, and possibly a haste pot.

Should I be trying to MAX haste at the expense of other stats?
Examples:
Swap Halberd of Desolation for The Blade of Harbingers
Swap Angelista's Revenge and Band of the Eternal Champion for 2x Band of Devastation

I also have 4 pieces of T6 with the legs (5th piece) in the bank as I have the Starstalker Legguards.
I have Fists of Mukoa sitting in the bank as well but breaking my T6 set bonus doesn't seem smart.

Doing this I lose a lot of crit and drop down to abut 29% unbuffed.
But I gain a ton of haste.

Any thoughts on where the balance is?
Currently I have a shot speed of 2.09 unbuffed. If I added all that haste gear speed would be much faster.
Current Weapon: Bristleblitz Striker

Just wow on Aspect of the Dragonhawk. They truly do want to fix us at times. If it adds 10% dodge (as Monkey adds now) then it will be one hell of an aspect. It will not revert the dodge tax, but in comparative terms it will be a small step forwards (the Mokey dodge > the dodge tax increase). On top of that we get our Aspect 'bar'. Woot for that! Finally.

Now back to Aspect of the Beast.
It is funny how that calculation that gives the 20k AP keeps getting thrown around. Yes, it applies to solo and unbuffed situations. But we all agree that the reason that BM pets go from 35% DPS to 55% is because of the big raid buffs like Battle Shout.
Any calculation as to the benefit of Aspect of the Beast should take this considerable difference into account. Not just if the loss of Hawk AP is made up by Beast on the pet. Naturally that will be an impossibly high number.

I heard mention that some BMs have had 5k AP and their pets 3k. Well then... that sounds like a very different situation. We get 390 AP from Hawk and our pets get 85.8. So the question becomes, will our loss of 390 AP and Imp Hawk haste be made up for by the 220ish AP our pet gets from Beast? To me it appears unlikely still, but much closer than the 20k AP solo scenario indicates.

A change of subjects again:
Can you make a castsequence for pets in a macro?
THe reason I'm thinking of that is for 2/3 and 3/3 Longevity situations with a Cat. Losing that last tick is just not good. So getting Rake to stay uncast until the DoT is finished would be a way to get away that problem. Since the pet special GCD looks to be a rather complicated matter, I can see how it will be hard to determine the number of Claws. But with a 1.5 GCD it would be 6 Claws and a Rake in sequence, and with a 1.25 GCD it would be 8 Claws and Rake in sequence (technically it would be 7.2 Claws, but 0.2 Claws = 1 Claw in this matter).

Aspect of the dragonhawk is going to be amazing. Wow, its really nice to see consolidation. Thank god.

Yeah, they actually lowered the number of our keybinds without nerfing us in some way. Good times indeed.

And no dcwarlord. Haste isn't king. It is more like the fool. It isn't directly bad to have, but in case of a crowded place you would prefer a knight instead.
Meaning, if you have a couple pieces of gear and one has Haste but that Haste coems at te price of other stats (in a comparable number mind you), then the Haste item will most likely be slightly worse. Don't go and throw your Haste gear away as it might just be better than the alternative, in spire of the weaker scaling on Haste. But it is clear that you shouldn't begin to throw away perfectly good stats to get Haste specifically.

I think what has been said is that its not a top tier or A stat anymore like agi/ap/crit.

Because of the unlinking of auto shot you no longer need to stack haste to reach an optimal auto:steady ratio.

Now that you dont have to worry about timing auto shots with steady shots, you'll want to focus on gaining stats that will do more damage. It wont hurt to gain haste but you should value it less than stats that will increase your damage.

Ok, a deep breath... ok:

first test on training dummy: time to oom, 1.30, average dps without trinket or BW with 50/11/0 spec, 1400 (yesterday 2300 dps at Brutallus with BT gear)... there is something wrong... and ofc I see only haste's speech, damn.


EDIT: Many test, same result: I cant break 1550 dps, and I go oom VERY fast (today I've see fire mage doing 2800 dps, and shaman ehna doing 2200...).

Which is odd since I saw a definate upgrade of DPS when I tested. But really don't test until OOM, test longer. Perhaps 3-4 Viper sessions. Then you have more or less a baseline.
Also make sure your Autos are actually firing. There are reports of people having trouble keeping Auto up. Perosnally I changed my old macro from /cast !Autoshot to /startattack. For us that means autoshot (and melee if in range)

My Autos actually firing well, no issue about this.
I'm without words, I've heard many complain about mana issue, but this... average time to oom in five test: 1.10 sec, using ONLY steady shot, under BW mana "bonus".
And... 1550 dps with my gear (check the armory)? This is a joke, right? The true patch come tomorrow?

You know, 1400 is right near around my theoretical unbuffed DPS according to 74B spreadsheet and I was doing around 1600 consistently against the test dummies...
Now, 74B says that my Buffed DPS will be 2900 with lvl 70 raid buffs. The scaling is spectacular, so please don't freak if you're comparing Buffed/Unbuffed as it seems you're doing comparing to a Brut run...

Has anyone done any further testing for marks builds concerning 7 in BM tree or survival?

Also if I've got improved hunters mark, raid with two other hunters, would you think rapid fire of hunters mark glyph would give more dps?

Not sure what you're suprised about.
Firstly, they've stated that the previous utility classes have had their damage increased such that it will be competitive with Pure DPS classes.
Secondly, again comparing unbuffed damage is at best short-sighted. These other classes may have higher beginning numbers and less scaling with raid buffs or they may not, god knows I dunno what that shaman should put out in a raid setting.
Thirdly, you made no mention of any relative gear difference if any between you, the mage, and the enhancement shaman.
Fourthly (god I jus keep going don't I) AotV regen is AMAZINGLY quick in a raid setting and you're testing without Replenishment or Pally's Wisdom Judgement thing (which is currently borked and doing outrageous regen btw).

Less tinfoil hat plz.

The problem with *current* loot (pre-Wrath) is that a lot of the mail loot still has haste on it, which makes it inferior to some of the leather still. For example, Gloves of Immortal Dusk still beat out Fletcher's as I plug it into the spreadsheet at least. Well itemized mail should be nice over leather, but it all depends on how Blizz itemizes it.

Not much data to crunch, maybe some later if and when wws goes up. Our server was having serious issues all night. And the BT nerfs made it far too easy.

We ran our usual 4 hunters. 3 random bm hunters, one with 51 with d-saur. One MM for TSA for the raid. I undergear all other hunters yet topped dps on all fights.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?hunt...00000000000000 personal spec, and Pet Calculator - Wowhead cat spec.

Also using:

/cast bestial wrath
/castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Call of the Wild
/cast rapid fire
/use bloodlust brooch

CD macro every time it was up. The only change I'm considering is moving a point out of Cobra Strikes for Longevity to
better synch CotW with trinket cooldown (4min instead of 4.5). However we never saw a single fight go the 4 min+ to even pop CotW twice as I've implied.

Just some ideas for those continuing to raid at 70. Normally I'm at the bottom of the heap even though we all specced the same and everyone is on par with our skills/uptime on most fights.

Oh, and to make mention of the insane mana regen from totems/pallies/spriests. I think I only had to go to viper a couple times during trash and only one time on a boss fight when all the mana batteries were dead (actually popped pot instead). Never once did I drop below 1k less than full on any other fight.

Still trying to figure out iif 3/3 Longevity and 1/3 Cobra Strikes is better than 1/3 Long and 3/3 Cobra =(

Currently, cats and scorpids are competing for this distinction... as has been mentioned several times in this thread.
Devilsaurs may have a higher potential, but because its not possible at 70 to get them along with GftT they're currently underperforming.

Well i heard that scorpid pets have been close to the top, but i've also heard that wasps were high. With the arm pen shot..

any downfalls / gains from having scorpid over wasp and vice versa?

i was dps-testing on the boss-dummy and noticed that i had quite a lot of misses (and my cat had too). that is weird because i had 136 hit-rating AND i am draenei (changed trinket dst to tzunami and haven't changed sockets yet).
i did 95 shots (steady and auto) and missed 9 shots in total (worst case).

there can't be a difference in hit-cap, the only explaination for me is that draenei-hit-aura doesn't work atm. has anyone else experienced this?

check the mob lvl your hitting. they have 60s, 70s, 80s, and boss 80+ dummies now.

Sounds to me like you are testing at level 70 versus a level 80 test mob? Does that clear up your hit rating issue?

At risk of getting an infraction, some observations from Wednesday nights Kara- I mean SWP clear. A few things, and some random uncalled for bitching thrown in for flavor.

1) Wasp pets suck for DPS. That or Marks pets just suck period, can't decide yet. You would think that a Hunter with ~3.8k AP raid buffed would have enough spill over that their pet would do a reasonable amount of damage but this doesn't appear to be the case. Unless new ranks of sting get different spell damage coefficients I really don't see Wasps being worth it.

I went out of my way to pick up a wasp so our druids wouldn't have to fuck with FF, but by the end of the night I realized what a poor decision it was to use one. Even with over +400 spell damage purely from AP the largest Crit I saw all night from Sting was in the low 500 range on a fully debuffed raid boss with KC up. There is no way a Wasp is a very viable pet unless you are completely absent of Druids, their damage simply isn't there. My pet was quite literally doing less than 8% of my overall DPS (once again, probably because I'm marks) but cats reap the rewards of so many better raid debuffs than anything with Spell Power. This makes me seriously question the math behind Scorpid pets as well. I'll probably throw up the whole 5 gold to fuck around on training dummies as BM but I really can't see it being viable.

2) What the fuck is with Wild Quiver?
This talent is garbage. I honestly think in a raiding environment I would get more out of Barrage than this crap. The spec used for testing tonight was: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft. I mean, I really was sold on the whole passive ~2% damage aspect of it at first, but then I MD pulled a Boss to our tanks, with a wold quiver proc, crit my Chim and got smacked in the face. Thanks for consuming that MD charge there Wild Quiver, your 900 threat is invaluable to the raiding scene. If for no other reason, I'll probably spec out of WC just so it doesn't fuck up my MDs.

3) Holy fuck Volley is amazing.
Holy fuck Volley is AMAZING. Over 900 single target DPS and doesn't suffer target cap penalties until somewhere in the realm of "more than all of Felmyst' skellies". It really makes me wonder why Multi-shot exists at all anymore. My AE DPS was significantly higher than the majority of the casters in my raid and was just behind the Star Falling, Hurricaning battle bird.

4) Multi-target fights feel insanely chunky as Marks spec. This is a specific reference to KJ and M'uru where needing to generate burst DPS was really hard to juggle without the use of Chim, but I needed Chim to keep my Serpent sting rolling. It isn't a really big issue on these fights for the simple fact that they're jokingly easy now, but I can feel it being exceptionally annoying on fights in the future which may share similar mechanics.

5) Fuck Wild Quiver. I was also well over the haste cap and my Auto Shot was making up 32% of my overall. This talent just sucks dicks behind the Olive Garden to get into raid specs.

Anyway, pulling 3100+ DPS on Brut was fun. All of my complaints about Marks spec are in the above 5 bullet points. Ability rotation takes some practice when you weave in other shots for extra DPS because you're more than fine on Mana. The only fight I had mana issues on all night were M'uru and Council because there was no JoW.