Just need to know with the changes to AOTV that is is fixed % per tick now and then the speed of your weapon for per shot for additional mana gain. How does this affect our 2xT6 bonus, which states 5% more mana gained from your intellect for AOTV.
Did anyone see any post where they plan to change the bonus even cause I have failed to find it anywhere and almost got the feeling they completelly missed that part.
Well, you still need a fair few points in Mortal Shots to get to GftT...
So we should already begin to wonder about specs for a lower mana situation. MM doesn't appear to change all that much from how it looked before, but Invigoration becomes 'better' for BM? Since Invigoration take a step ahead then Cobra Strikes suddenly increases in value by a lot too. No Cobra Strikes for Invigoration in a pime mana situation seems like a fairly big fail. And Longevity for BM remains quite good. Suddenly Readiness looks like a tall order to try for without sacrificing at least some pretty nice talents. And the entire reason Readiness looked so great was a synergy with BW, Longevity and the glyph. Now that looks a lot less attractive since you have to sacrifice something to get it.
So why bother with trying anymore? One more Rapid and one more BW per 3 mins aren't that impressive. Maybe it is time to drop that idea (and here we might have Blizzard's second order intention for the changes)...
So now I'm looking at this build. Hardly what I want really, but not that far from it either. With enough crit I could sacrifice one BD for Imp Mend Pet (mana remember). Frenzy should be plenty in 3/5 with Cobra Strikes. Animal Handler of course looks tasty with the Expertise (and it is sort of needed because of the 3/5 Frenzy to move on to tier 8). Invigoration and Cobra Strikes have already been called, so Longevity remains and since we talk mana, then the lowest possible CD on BW will actually have an impact there too. I calculated around 3% less mana on 120 sec BW and just above 5% for 70 sec BW. With the returns from Invigoration that could prove to be a just enough. While Efficiency is clearly better for mana it provides no other DPS value, while BW is definately a lot of DPS on top of the mana issue.
Also, freed from Readiness we don't have to get stuff like Imp Stings or Rapid Killing or even Aimed Shot (though that one is a possible nice addition to our arsenal).
The Imp Tracking is obviously always nice, but if Exotics turn out great for some reason, then it would seem the most logical place to pick a point given our relatively weak personal DPS.
Last night I was cleaning out my bank and rearranging and found my Illidan bow stashed and it gave me an idea (not an original one mind you). I created a simple macro that swapped in my Black Bow of the Betrayer when I activated AotV and then swapped my Twins bow back when I activated AotH. I understand that not everyone has access to a Black Bow of the Betrayer, but the concept of weapon swapping is not anything new. So, here is an idea to expand on...
Macroing a weapon swap for AotV that drops in 2x ... of Intellect weapons with +30 Intellect enchants on each to increase our mana pool. Granted this weapon swap would reduce our damage output even more during that period, but look at the passive gains from AotV (4% every 3 sec.).
Lets assume the intellect from the "of Intellect" weapons is 30 and our mana pool is 10,000.
Normal AotV... 10,000*.04=400 or 133 mana returned every second.
([30+30]*2)*15=1800 mana
11,800*.04=472 or 157 mana returned every second. 16% more Mp1
(Excuse my horrid looking mathematical equation)
The added intellect would give us 120 AP unbuffed with 3/3 Careful Aim and with raid buffs that would be a little more.
Kraxis: Fact. All BM/MM builds assume at least 2 pts in mortal, but most I had seen previously went the full 5 at lvl 80. When I initially looked at your build, my first thought was to take points out of mortal to fill out improved tracking, or perhaps even take a point in survival instincts, but upon running the numbers I foung that a 54/14/3, 54/12/5, and 54/11/6 were all within 4 hypothetical dps of each other, and since improved tracking isn't "always on" like mortal shots, your point allocation is probably the best.
Mattaos: I'd thought about this too. Forgive my poor grasp on mechanics, but when decreasing the size of your mana pool, is the actual mana loss absolute or proportional? In other words, if you use your "bigger mana pool" to fill yourself up to 10k mana, then swap back to your smaller mana pool gear, do you suddenly become topped off at 10k/10k, or do you maintain the same percentage of mana and drop down to 8470 out of 10k mana? If the latter, then the gear change is essentially useless. If, on the other hand, your mana level remains unchanged when the pool size is decreased, then what remains is to compare the lower damage across all shots in viper with "int weapons" against the damage gained by the number of shots *not* spent in viper via this method. And of course weapon swaps incur GCD penalties on both the swap-in and swap-out. But agreed, this bears further consideration.
Kraxis: Fact. All BM/MM builds assume at least 2 pts in mortal, but most I had seen previously went the full 5 at lvl 80.
Mattaos: I'd thought about this too. Forgive my poor grasp on mechanics, but when decreasing the size of your mana pool, is the actual mana loss absolute or proportional? In other words, if you use your "bigger mana pool" to fill yourself up to 10k mana, then swap back to your smaller mana pool gear, do you suddenly become topped off at 10k/10k, or do you maintain the same percentage of mana and drop down to 8470 out of 10k mana? If the latter, then the gear change is essentially useless. If, on the other hand, your mana level remains unchanged when the pool size is decreased, then what remains is to compare the lower damage across all shots in viper with "int weapons" against the damage gained by the number of shots *not* spent in viper via this method. And of course weapon swaps incur GCD penalties on both the swap-in and swap-out. But agreed, this bears further consideration.
The amount of mana you have will not change unless your maximum mana allowed becomes smaller then the amount of mana you had. Example... If you have 9k mana out of a 12k pool and changed some gear around so that your max pool was only 9.5k you would still have 9k mana. However if you accidentally removed one to many pieces of gear and your max pool temporarily dropped to 8.5k mana before it putting one piece of gear back on then you would end up with 8.5k mana out of a 9.5k pool. It is absolute.
So as long as you regen to the amount of mana you would have without int gear on, it should be an increase in regen. I definitely like the idea, getting some good int weapons might be a bit difficult depending on how itemization works but I guess as long as the difference in time spent in viper allows you to increase dps overall it would be worth it. Guess we'll have to keep our eyes open for 1h's with multiple sockets in them, seems like the best way to pick up lots of int without dropping a large amount of other stats.
Early in BC, I experimented with dual-wielding with Int enchants and the old Careful Aim. Ultimately of course it wasn't worth it, but what about with the new version? Based on current enchants, one hand weapons get 20 agility or 30 intellect, thus yielding 40 and 60 ap respectively. While the crit from agility is lost, unless my math is wrong, it should be less valauble than the 20 ap gained, especially if one has more than 30% crit self-buffed.
Perhaps this might be part of our answer to the upcoming changes?
Last night I was cleaning out my bank and rearranging and found my Illidan bow stashed and it gave me an idea (not an original one mind you). I created a simple macro that swapped in my Black Bow of the Betrayer when I activated AotV and then swapped my Twins bow back when I activated AotH. I understand that not everyone has access to a Black Bow of the Betrayer, but the concept of weapon swapping is not anything new. So, here is an idea to expand on...
It should be noted that the Wrath Intellect enchant gives 45 int while the wrath agility enchant only gives 26 agility. With careful aim being mandatory, and the relatively equal value of ap to agi in the current level 80 model, one almost wonders if int enchants might become "all-the-time" dps enchants instead of just being put on viper weapons, especially pointing out, as Illuminati has, that replenishment would get a constant benefit from int enchants.
Edit: why wonder when I can indulge my excel addiction? Double agi enchants yielded a 49 dps increase on the level 80 BM profile. Double int enchants yielded... a 49 dps increase on the level 80 BM profile. That's just a very quick-and-dirty pass on things; I didn't model the external environment extensively at all. But it's a tantalizing hint that intellect could very well serve as the new dps enchant for *all* purposes, not just viper weapons.
Last edited by Zeuxis : 10/24/08 at 2:44 PM.
Reason: spelling
It should be noted that the Wrath Intellect enchant gives 45 int while the wrath agility enchant only gives 26 agility. With careful aim being mandatory, and the relatively equal value of ap to agi in the current level 80 model, one almost wonders if int enchants might become "all-the-time" dps enchants instead of just being put on viper weapons, especially pointing out, as Illuminati has, that replenishment would get a constant benefit from int enchants.
Edit: why wonder when I can indulge my excel addiction? Double agi enchants yielded a 49 dps increase on the level 80 BM profile. Double int enchants yielded... a 49 dps increase on the level 80 BM profile. That's just a very quick-and-dirty pass on things; I didn't model the external environment extensively at all. But it's a tantalizing hint that intellect could very well serve as the new dps enchant for *all* purposes, not just viper weapons.
I've done some modeling on stat values and what adding one particular stat does to the values of other stats. It is well known that Hit rating is the most valuable stat to stack up to the hit cap at which point its value drops to zero. Its value increases the more you have until the cap and it also increases the value of all other stats the more you have (up till the cap). There are two stats, Crit rating and AP, that increase the value of all other stats but do NOT increase the value of itself. For these stats, going from 12 to 13 adds the same value as does going from 1400 to 1401*. Agility, Armor Pen, and Haste all increase the value of other stats as well as the value of themselves. For these stats going from 140 to 141 is more valuable then going from 12 to 13 up till a hypothetical and likely unreachable point of having 100% crit chance (agility's value would level off) or 100% armor pen (value would drop to zero there after). Intellect, the last stat to be covered, actually DECREASES its own value the more you have, while increasing the value of all other stats. For Intellect, going from 140 to 141 is less valuable then going from 12 to 13.
* Crit/agility is debatable whether or not one wishes to argue that there is a hard cap at 100% crit chance or if it is possible to "crit a crit". If one assumes that there is a hard cap on crit chance then eventually Crit Rating will start losing value as different talent/ability combos reach the cap, and eventually the value of Crit Rating will go to zero as all abilities are at a 100% chance to crit. However the hypothetical amount of crit/agility one would have to aquire to start seeing a decrease in value from increased critical chances is likely to be un-reachable (without bugs) due to blizzard's scaling mechanics.
He is living about 4 builds back on the Beta where Master Marskman or Mark of Death, not 100% sure which one it was gave 5% haste and it got changed to either crit dmg bonus or less mana per shot. So SV/MM both need the same haste to reach GCD on SS.
My bad, you're right and I didn't notice. (I don't like MM, personal preference).
Zeuxis - very interesting analysis on the int enchant, ty
So I've been out of the loop for a few weeks with midterms and what not. I've been parusing through this post and various others but I dont seem to see a definate figure for where haste loses its luster. Is it the CGD cap for Steady Shot or is there some measure of interpretation where you have to ask if the more haste for your auto out paces that of the potential benefit of the other stat bonus? Or is it assumed that once you reach GCD cap for Steady Shot any other stat increase is better than haste? I am mainly asking with regard to our current state for the duration of TBC.
Again I apologize if this has been covered and if so a point in the right direction would be great. There is so much info floating around right now its nearly smothering trying to get caught back up and almost doesnt feel worth it.
So I've been out of the loop for a few weeks with midterms and what not. I've been parusing through this post and various others but I dont seem to see a definate figure for where haste loses its luster.
Haste loses, as you're speculating, effect when steady shot's casting time reaches the GCD or below. From that point haste only have any real effect for auto shot. And while auto shot is a significant portion of our total dps, it is still only a portion.
Haste now might be better than it was considered to be earlier in this thread, the reason for this is that SV and MM hunter's steady shot casting time is longer than the GCD. While it was considered that MM/SV's steady shot would be equal to or less than the GCD in raids, this was due to Windfury totem and Icy Talons giving a (non stackable) 15% haste increase to ranged attacks as well as melee attacks, this no longer seems likely, since WF and Icy Talons will not be affecting ranged attacks.
That makes haste a better stat than expected for MM and SV, but it still is not a great stat - especially not for BM where it only will affect auto shot.
It is worth to note though that the dev's (GC) explicitly have stated that haste on gear is due to their (internal) itemization rules, where it seems a certain amount of an items stat should be considered secondary. Haste is presumably such a stat, and for a secondary stat it ain't all bad.
Edit: this is a link to the referred to statement: the first comment after all the alcohol in the first reply, and the last comment in the last reply: MMO-Champion BlueTracker - [Feedback] Hunter Concerns, Civil Edition
That interesting they categorize it as a B budget stat. In that preceptually it seems so important, just as the OP of that thread stated our items are littered with it....
That interesting they categorize it as a B budget stat. In that preceptually it seems so important, just as the OP of that thread stated our items are littered with it....
Well, I know it's not the first time we were stuck with wacky secondary stats. Just look at the AQ40 set and just groan at the spell damage. This was when spell damage still affected arcane shot and that's about it.
Intellect, the last stat to be covered, actually DECREASES its own value the more you have, while increasing the value of all other stats. For Intellect, going from 140 to 141 is less valuable then going from 12 to 13.
Could you explain a bit more please? I understand the first bit but this doesn't make sense. Each point of int will give you more attack power with focused aim (behaving just like AP), while also decreasing the amount of time you spend in viper. So how does the value of int decrease?
Something I have been thinking for while and perhaps now is good time to bring it up; given where the conversion in this thread is leading and knowing that Viper, works based on Weapon Speed and that dose include Melee weapons. What would be better?
A: Hit with bow/gun from Range. B: Take two very fast weapons OH+MH and go Melee the boss for few sec and get benefit of WF as well.
Kraxis: Fact. All BM/MM builds assume at least 2 pts in mortal, but most I had seen previously went the full 5 at lvl 80. When I initially looked at your build, my first thought was to take points out of mortal to fill out improved tracking, or perhaps even take a point in survival instincts, but upon running the numbers I foung that a 54/14/3, 54/12/5, and 54/11/6 were all within 4 hypothetical dps of each other, and since improved tracking isn't "always on" like mortal shots, your point allocation is probably the best.
First off, I apologize if this has been gone over before. I have not checked this thread in far too long, as I just recently decided that I will in fact be sticking with my hunter come Wrath. I am also currently under the effects of pain meds (wisdom tooth removal is no fun!) so I'm not going to peruse through the 20-ish pages I've failed to read.
Wouldn't a 55/14/2 build be slightly better? I realize that Beast Mastery as a 51 point talent is lacking in many, many ways. But I just can't rationally see how 1 point in improved tracking is worth more than the gain you'd get from having an exotic pet (or is it just the case that cats, or even wolves, are simply that much better than exotic pets are now?) I really do apologize if this has been gone over before, but I just can't wrap my (not 100% functioning) mind around why 1 point in improved tracking is better than the 1 in Beast Mastery.
I have to assume that 5 points in mortal shots would be better than 2-3 more points in Improved Tracking. With the way we spam Steady Shot, even with it not affecting autoshots, 30% more crit damage on steady shot just seems like it would scale better, especially when you include the Glyph of Steady Shot, which is 10% more damage overall. No, I haven't done any math, but thats just what my gut is telling me.
54/15/2 is probably what I'll be specing when I hit 80, unless of course the math wizards here figure out the best "cookie cutter" BM spec for raiding.
I've yet to try it out, but i just plugged some stuff into the spreadsheet to see how good haste actually is for myself as a MM hunter. Currently i had been using this build, 7/51/3 with a DST and Tsunami Talisman as my trinkets. I went into the spreadsheet and plugged in my Bloodlust Brooch in place of the DST and my dps went up by about 5. I took this and reworked my spec to 0/54/7. My dps went up by another 15. Now, the spreadsheet has been pretty damn reliable thus far in my hunter career and even with all the theorycrafting thats been going, the spreadsheet usually backs up what we theorize. Is this just further proof that haste just doesn't cut it for us anymore? At least for MM, it seems like hitting harder is much better than hitting faster.
I have to assume that 5 points in mortal shots would be better than 2-3 more points in Improved Tracking. With the way we spam Steady Shot, even with it not affecting autoshots, 30% more crit damage on steady shot just seems like it would scale better, especially when you include the Glyph of Steady Shot, which is 10% more damage overall. No, I haven't done any math, but thats just what my gut is telling me.
I'm going to do this math ignoring pet damage, since the pet damage factor should stay constant between the two talents.
Break down what mortal shots gives you:
- Let's say 50% of your damage comes from steady shots
- Let's say that you have a 40% crit rate
- Each point in mortal shots is 6% extra crit damage bonus, which is actually 3% extra damage on every crit if I understand how it works correctly, since it only affects the bonus damage not the base damage
So 50% * 40% * 3% = 0.6% damage bonus per talent point, versus 1% damage bonus per talent point from improved tracking. Obviously the higher your crit rate and the larger percentage of your damage that comes from shots affected by the talent the better it looks but I don't think my base numbers are that off.
I'm not sure if I'm missing something, but from the simple math it looks like improved tracking beats mortal shots by a lot. If I'm misunderstanding the way the talent works please clarify.
It should be noted that the Wrath Intellect enchant gives 45 int while the wrath agility enchant only gives 26 agility. With careful aim being mandatory, and the relatively equal value of ap to agi in the current level 80 model, one almost wonders if int enchants might become "all-the-time" dps enchants instead of just being put on viper weapons, especially pointing out, as Illuminati has, that replenishment would get a constant benefit from int enchants..
My beta enchanter is maxed enchanting and I can't find the exceptional intellect enchant on the trainer or shards for enchant recipes vendor. I also can't find any comments or data on wowhead which indicates if the enchant is even in the game or where to get it, which leads me to believe that it's either just datamined and was never implemented (which might mean they still plan to put it in, professions seem rather half baked atm), or that it's a rare drop and nobody's figured out where from yet. I'm inclined to think it's more likely it's just not implemented unless someone can say otherwise.
I do think Blizz still hasn't thought through the whole 2h vs 1h enchant thing. They fixed the straight AP enchants, but they've put in no 2h agil enchant at all, and they also haven't made a 2h version of the hit/crit enchant, although from a strict itemization value standpoint, the hit/crit enchant seems designed for 2h weapons not 1h, which means that if you actually need hit, you might get better bang for your itemization buck from dual wielding those than from any 2h enchant. This is problematic since weapons designed with hunters in mind are almost always 2h (certainly the ones I've seen in wrath so far are). Parity between 1h and 2h enchants needs to be maintained when possible so that hunters are not overly encouraged to pick one over the other and it doesn't look like that's been reached yet.
I'm going to do this math ignoring pet damage, since the pet damage factor should stay constant between the two talents.
Break down what mortal shots gives you:
- Let's say 50% of your damage comes from steady shots
- Let's say that you have a 40% crit rate
- Each point in mortal shots is 6% extra crit damage bonus, which is actually 3% extra damage on every crit if I understand how it works correctly, since it only affects the bonus damage not the base damage
So 50% * 40% * 3% = 0.6% damage bonus per talent point, versus 1% damage bonus per talent point from improved tracking. Obviously the higher your crit rate and the larger percentage of your damage that comes from shots affected by the talent the better it looks but I don't think my base numbers are that off.
I'm not sure if I'm missing something, but from the simple math it looks like improved tracking beats mortal shots by a lot. If I'm misunderstanding the way the talent works please clarify.
Hmm, ok, let's break down an individual case.
My raid buffed crit rate as BM is 45.22. Baseline steadyshot damage, therefore, will be 145.22 percent, assuming an ideal crit rate and the standard 100 percent bonus.
If I take 5/5 mortal, I get a 30 percent crit damage adjustment. 30 percent of 45.22 is 13.6. So now my adjusted steadyshot damage is 158.82 (I've already started rounding at this point, so lets go ahead and make it 158.8).
Now then, let's look at a straight 5 percent damage adjustment to steady shot. 145.22*1.05 (from I-tracking) = 152.5.
So, at what ratio of auto damage to steady damage does the loss of 6.3 percent steady damage become compensated for by the 5 percent flat increase to auto damage, adjusted for crit rate?
Given x is autoshot dps, and y is steady dps...
152.5(x)+152.5(y) = 145.2(x)+158.8(y)
7.3x-6.3y=0
7.3x=6.3y
x=.86y
So, if autoshot damage is .86 or more of steady damage, tracking wins. This is a ratio of about 53-54 percent steady damage out of the dps whole. If we take your assumption that the ratio is 50/50, then I-tracking would indeed be better, but by a nearly statistically insignificant amount. (It comes out to a loss of .3 percent if you with mortal at 50/50, or a 10 dps loss if you would have done 3000 dps with an optimal spec.) Note that this is only true for THIS crit rate, and THIS spec, and assuming that you are only shooting steadies and autos. If you go MM or SV and start shooting chimera or explosive, things skew in favor of mortal shots due to the increased percentage of specials as part of the dps whole, as well as synergystic talents such as marked for death and TnT. On the other hand, if you stack haste heavily and autos become more prevalent, or if your crit rate drops significantly, then I-tracking gets better. The same is true if you are in a short fight where ratios are heavily skewed by transitory haste like heroism. But any way you slice it, it's a pretty hard bit of math to do in your head.
Originally Posted by Rivkah
My beta enchanter is maxed enchanting and I can't find the exceptional intellect enchant on the trainer or shards for enchant recipes vendor. I also can't find any comments or data on wowhead which indicates if the enchant is even in the game or where to get it, which leads me to believe that it's either just datamined and was never implemented (which might mean they still plan to put it in, professions seem rather half baked atm), or that it's a rare drop and nobody's figured out where from yet. I'm inclined to think it's more likely it's just not implemented unless someone can say otherwise.
I can not say otherwise, since I took my data for those enchants off of wowhead. If the enchants listed there turn out to be innacurate, then my conclusions would be similarly invalid.
I have read most post and come to the conclusion people think haste is basically wasted. Its like +hit, when you come to the cap the return value is =0.
But haste value doesnt become 0 when you hit the GCD for SS or any other shot, cause we still get benefits for it to our autoshot. So my question is what value do Haste get when SS is down to 1.5 sec.
The question to the devs and such people is "why do we have haste. its useless to us" maybe we should ask ourselfs what value haste has to us. For example how much value has haste compared to agility. Its prolly not 1:1 but we dont really know that.
Im not math guy so i dont even dare to enter here with my numbers but maybe someone else might have the balls to stand for there numbers.
54/15/2 is probably what I'll be specing when I hit 80, unless of course the math wizards here figure out the best "cookie cutter" BM spec for raiding.
I will give a chance to 54/12/5.
BM maybe worth that 1 point, I think Devilsaur/spirit beast will worth it. (Not as the 4 more pet talents-points, but the exotic beasts.)
Mortal shot affects your special ranged dmg, neither auto shots or your pets.
Imp. Tracking affects everything (including pet dmg) except periodic dmg as Serpent sting, and maybe Volley and Explosion trap.
(Somebody could test if Volley IS count as a periodic dmg?)
1 point in Bestial Discipline would be enough with 2 point in GftT. (So I got a point to Spirit bond.)
I would put only 1 point to Invigoration if that would be enough. (Or 0 point, if we will have lot of mana.)
If I need 2 point in Invigoration, than I will steal 1 point from Imp. Tracking.
10/24/08, 11:39 AM
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