Midnight

Actually I think some people severly undervalue haste if the wf change goes through. Some prelimary tests with the spreadsheet hinted to haste rating not only beeing more valuable again but even beeing the next best stat per item budget after hit rating until steady shot is down to GCD speed at which point it looses roughly half of its value making it worst of our stats again. Since we need about 12,6% haste (412 rating) with and 15,9% haste (523 rating) without Swift Retribution I don´t see this happening anytime soon though.
This only applies to MM and SV hunters of course. Also getting hasted due to some temporary buffs will decrease the relative haste rating value over time a bit but I´d still see it at least as good as the other so called A stats with nerfed wf.

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Griffen

I believe imp tracking does not affect pet damage. Very vague wording on it though.


@Miya (sorry, didn't want to make a new post): yeah, though as it says "Increases all non-periodic damage done to targets that are being tracked x%." without explicitly stating that it increases your damage it is possible to believe it might increase pets damage too. Actually it is possible to believe it is a raid buff if you're of the optimistic kind

Numquam catapultas allice, iram omnium concitabis

 

Miya Mirage

As far as Beta Realm testing shows, it neither affects pet damage nor Serpent Sting damage. With the term periodic damage they have been referring to DoTs ever since resilince was worded to lower periodic damage.

 

sjogren

I did some shootin' with a Fine Light Crossbow (29-29 damage) on a training dummy to have a look at how chimera shot behaves, and I'm confused. My character window showed damage as 648-649 and chimera hit for 841. 648 * 1.25 is 810. What gives? It's like the 125% is additive with Ranged Weapon Spec or something?

Another interesting fact is that with RED, 5/5 mortal shots and 5/5 marked for death, chimera's base damage crits for 248.4% but the bonus sting damage crits for 237.8% (ie not counting marked for death)

 

Griffen

It might be because Fine Light Crossbow has a 2.7 speed, while shots usually are normalised for 2.8 speed. I don't remember the formulas and such, but it's the only thing I can think of.

Numquam catapultas allice, iram omnium concitabis

 

sjogren

Ahh, yes, that makes perfect sense. Silly me.

 

ElginRoko

Hit and haste are both linear (unless you cross the soft/hard cap), they don't increase their own value he more you add:-
assuming for simplified maths 100 damage shots every 1 second without haste, at 0% crit
at 80% hit that's 80dps, adding 1% hit takes you to 81 dps, a 1 dps increase
at 90% hit that's 90dps, adding 1% hit takes you to 91 dps, a 1 dps increase
At 100% hit
At 0% haste that's 100 dps, adding 15.77 haste (1%) => 100 / (1 / 101%) = 101 dps, a 1 dps increase
At 25% haste that's (100 / (1 / 125%)) = 125 dps, adding 15.77 haste (1%) => 100 / (1 / 126%) = 126 dps, a 1 dps increase

Agility (because it's 2 stats in 1) and Arpen work the way you suggest, each point making the next slightly more valuable. Int is a massive pain to work out, on the one side each point decreases viper time by a diminishing amount, on the other it increases the amount of mp5 you get from replenishment and JoW, mp5 being one of those stats what scales with itself, and does so in a massive way.

Oh, and all these things ignore procs, procs mess these linear vs nonlinear statements up a little, and every spec has them (even an MM build without ISS and IAotH, because the serpent refresh on chimera fits ths definition of proc)

 

Esoth

Good call Griffen, 810*2.8/2.7 ~-840, so that sounds right.

Haste:
Looking at the spreadsheet, in my current gear (BT/Hyjal + bracers from SWP) haste is actually beating out agi and ap on the spreadsheet with WF totem unchecked when I am specced as Marksmanship. To me this suggests that the current T7 pieces will benefit Marks much more - thus the WF totem nerf is counter to Blizzard's goal of making all specs relatively equal. It sort of reminds of how mages (from my, limited perspective) were in BC. That is, their spec was reliant on their gear in many cases, instead of vice-versa.

Glyph of Serpent Sting:
This has probably already been mentioned but I have not seen it; more data cannot hurt. This glyph is beneficial to Marks because the extra tick is getting counted for the Chimera Shot - Serpent Sting effect. To test, sting a mob and follow it with a chimera shot after the first tick. With no other buffs or debuffs, the effect should be 6*0.4 more damage than the dot, instead of 5*0.4.

Edit: punctuation mistake

 

KraxisSingular

It is worth noting that Mortal Shots affect Volley, Imp Tracking doesn't. Since our AoE has become big stuff too, I can't say that it is something we can just ignore.

So a marginal difference on single target (where one might even get locked out due to mechanicals for isntance) but a rather considerable difference on AoE. I guess it comes down to taste, but while the theory sort of backs up Imp Tracking for a very minor advantage for BM, I would say it is realistically not better due to change tracking and other issues as well as the Volley aspect.

The change to WF is sort of strange. Not in the effect that we might not need a nerf of sorts (and I'll assume Blizzard is on top of the mana returns and have taken a fixed JoW into account). But on account that the current highest DPS spec we have, even in level 80 raiding (from the reports), BM, is the least affected by this. The DPS nerf will be least felt due to the pet (which might now end up doing upwards of 60%!) and the gear remains the same unfavourable style. BM gear will thus be non-setgear. MM and Surv will feel the changes more in direct DPS (Viper is still a big strange patch of ground) but atthe same time some of that loss is made up for by the gigantuan amount of Haste on T7 and onwards. This might seem like a good thing, but don't forget that it is still a nerf and the gear haste can't match the advantage BM has in the pet.

Haste will be better, a lot in fact, but only towards making up for losses another spec doesn't have to worry about very much.
Also, BM still can't use all that Haste for much. Seems fairly wrong that setgear is that specdependant. Different sets? Unlikely given the DPS situation (Blizz definately don't want BM Hunter to get fairly optimal setgear now) and certainly the timeconstraints (Blizzard has previously been very reluctant to change gear).

I think the devs are feeling pretty smug about the change. For two thirds they have managed to nerf DPS quite a bit and fix the Haste issue for setgear, which has been a sore spot for some time now. And the Haste issue remains solved for a good time. With 6.3% Haste on the set there is plenty slack for other gear and eventual set upgrade to have more Haste.

 

Esoth

I'm finding that my pet is saturated with focus, even with only 1/2 Go for the Throat. Graphical bugs made me wonder if some abilities were not being cast (my steady shot macro tied to Rabid makes it look like growl and claw are trying to cast - and I never see the clockwise cooldown animation on claw) but looking at the WWS, everything appears to be going off as intended.
http://wowwebstats.com/4oajgeojknrd1...fd00005a#buffs
The above is the longest fight we had on BT/Hyjal, which is why I'm using it. I got really lucky with aoe - only got hit by consecrate, so I was pretty much just standing and shooting. 4'09" of attacking should lead to 166 specials, assuming a GCD for pets of 1.5 (is this true?). Roughly speaking, we're looking at about 25 focus per special, so 4150. Bestial Discipline should put focus generated at 249*24/4*2=2988 (using the spreadsheet formula of 24 focus per 4). The WWS shows I generated 3600 focus with about 51% crit chance (very close to raid buffed character sheet + debuffs). Until I start getting Wrath gear, my crit is just so high that 5/5 Kindred Spirits and 1/2 Go for the Throat seems much better than 4/5 and 2/2.

 

mochunk

That's an interesting theory. The only argument I can think of for 2/2 regen is because it's passive. For all the trash pulls etc. The time you spend not attacking, it's more likely your pets back to full focus before you send it in on the next pack. Or those cases where you have to recall and heal your pet, those seconds you lose attacking, as rare as those actually are now (shrug). Just something that popped into my head. Maybe someone else can expand on the idea.

 

Guten

Isnt pet GCD 1.25 ?
I dont know where i got it to 1.25 but its listed at Hunter Spreadsheat as 1.25

 

Shandara

We did a lot of tests and specials seemed to fire with an average of 1.25s between them (this was fairly consistent). Whether this is intended or not, we don't know.

WotLK Hunter DPS Spreadsheet

 

Esoth

Thanks - adjusting, it's about 4980 focus cost (actually slightly lower because of Rabid), which is still below the amount of focus generated by my crits and passively by my pet.

Edit: I put the BM spec I was using into Shandara's spreadsheet, with a typical 50/11 spec (1 point in GftT) and my current gear, along with a cat. Adding one more point in GftT resulted in a dps increase of 0. I seriously doubt we'll see crit around 50% any time soon after level 80 though.

 

Rezdan

Shandara stated in the Spreadsheet Thread that 1 in GftT is theoretically enough (does not take into account no-crit streaks or inactivity) and that the 2nd point will ALWAYS add 0 dps in the spreadsheet.

You can't really rely on the spreadsheet to know if the 2nd point in GftT is worth it. You can use it to see how much dps u lose taking a point out of KS.

 

Lofwyrr

The problem with one point in gft is, that you do not always crit, so you will have a phase where your pet consumes all it's focus and you won't crit to refuel it.

This strictly rare situation would be:
Given 25 focus ability cost (for simplicity)
Given 100 starting focus.
Counting out the regeneration for simplicity. (with regeneration and increased regenereation this would just stretch the time frame)

In both cases the pet goes out of focus in 5 seconds.

Having 1 Crit in this time yields: +25 focus(1 pt) / +50(2pt) so +1sec (1pt)/ +2sec(2pt) to out of focus.

Since a single 'out of focus' situation lowers the dps of your pet, i prefer 2/2 gft, especially as BM.
This is even more true for a pet like devilsaur, where the ability has to stack up to be most efficient.

Interesting at this point would be a mathematical anylysis including the statistical distribution of criticals.

 

ElginRoko

Yesh, the calculations for GftT are very very complicated, so the spreadsheet averages, which is unfortunately best-case.

My simulator doesn't have BD yet, but it's showing ~25% focus starve time with 1/2 GftT for an MM build with 35% crit. This is still enough focus starve time to make the second point better than most of the mid-level MM talents, though it's clearly inferior to the first. Given this knowledge, and the fact that BD's focus trickles steadily, which is exactly what you want to minimise focus starvation, I'd guess that the second point in GftT will probably be a poor investment for a BM hunter once they've cobbled together some naxx gear.

Edit: Lofwyrr's post was enough to make me add bestial discipline. Running with some MM build with BD tacked on, 35% crit raid buffed, 1/2 GftT and just spamming focus dumps + rabid, I got a figure of 0.88% time spent focus-starved (focus starved being defined as off gcd but unable to use any abilities). There's some rng variance so that's only an approximate value, but it's not too hard from there to see that the second point isn't worthwhile.

 

Valiad

I have been away for a week or so and had some trouble catching up with the thread and since some new changes were added would like some clarification.

Steady shot cast time was affected by the WF(or icy talons) totem and the quiver passive haste and if I remember correctly these 2 buffs were enough for any spec(apart from BM which had a 20% cast time allready from serpent swiftness?) to reach the 1.5 sec cast time which was required to get steady in line with the GCD.

When they say that ranged attacks won't benefit from these haste effects(WF, Icy talons) it means that they won't affect just the auto-shot speed(resulting in the mentioned loss of white dmg) and still affect steady shot cast time, or that they wont affect Steady Shot cast time as well meaning that we need to stack up passive haste from items to reach the 1.5 sec GCD=Cast time threshold?

 

Aerynlore

In short, this.

 

Ravenfire

It appears that Shandara's sheet has been updated and no longer has intellect decreasing its own +1 value (I posted with info obtained from v75b). This does simplify things and is, I believe, much more in line with what it should be.

While technically true, to discount procs is rather an extreme case. However, haste rating scales very poorly with itself even with procs counted and as such it can be approximated as linear without a hugh fuss being made either way.

 

Laurelai

Blue post tracker on mmo-champion: It looks like they fixed JoW in the new beta build:

Hopefully we'll see numbers soon from Beta, but it looks like they're nerfing it half proc rate, half effectiveness so (25%?) of what it was before.

 

◊ Lactose

Quick recap:

With the 3.0 patch, Auto Shot was unlinked from specials (most notably Steady Shot). However, this only functions correctly if, under Interface --> Combat, the flag Auto Attack/Auto Shot is set. If the flag is not set, Auto Shot is not correctly unlinked from specials, resulting in a drop in DPS.

This has its set of annoyances of its own. One of the most often referred to is the fact that using abilites when you don't have a target selected makes your character choose a target (nearest one), and attack it.
This can often cause unwanted pulls, or broken sheep, etc.

There have been various quick fixes or workarounds suggested, involving e.g. setting a focus target, and using /cast [target=focus], stuff like that.

I believe I have a better solution:
/stopmacro [target=target, noexists]
This line will cause the macro to fire if you do not have a target.
In other words: This causes everything below the line to only trigger if you have a target!

In addition:
/stopmacro [target=target, noharm]
Will make sure targetting a friendly target (e.g. yourself) does not trigger the same (unwanted) behaviour.

Example:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/stopmacro [target=target,noexists]
/stopmacro [target=target, noharm]
/cast Steady Shot

If you do not have a target selected, Steady Shot will not fire. You will not attempt to attack a random target.
If you do have a target selected, you will attack it as per usual.

Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max

 

Mattaos

I tested the other macro you mentioned (/focus /cast [target-focus]) last week, but I found myself still attacking the next acquired target with Auto Shot. The macro suggests that it prevents another Steady Shot from firing, but it doesn't prevent an Auto Shot from going off. I am going to re-test with this macro tonight and thank you for this suggestion. But, is it not Auto Shot that is bugged and not Steady Shot?

 

Bovii

Basically, it works like this:

- pre 3.0, both Steady Shot and Auto Shot were affected by Haste effects (Rapid Fire, IAotH, BL/H, etc) but Steady Shot could not run below the 1.5 GCD. There were specific haste points where our rotations changed to take advante of the new speeds. You were either firing a 3:2, a 2:1, or a 1:1 rotation. The balancing effect to all of this, though, was that you were constantly clipping your Auot Shots. In typical min/max fashion, we found the above haste points to actually increase DPS by reducing the number of Auto Shots fired.

- post 3.0, Blizzard realized that reducing your white damage to boost your yellow damage was silly (be honest, it was) and unlinked Auto Shots from specials. On top of this, they changed/added additional haste buffs to the game. To balance this, they increased the cast time of Steady Shot to 2.0s which forced non-BM Hunters to need these outside buffs to get to a 1.5s draw speed.

In addition to the above, Blizz also took Auto Shots off of Mortal Shots with the hopes that it would balance out everything. Unfortunately, they were wrong in how it all balanced. SO, now, BM Hunters will still be firing Steady Shot at a 1.5s draw speed while MM/SV Hunters (unaffected by Rapid Fire or IAotH) will be firing at a 1.74s draw speed (quiver only, no additional gear based haste included). And all three specs will be firing Auto Shots at a speed based on their weapon speed divided by their total item haste and any Hunter specific haste (plus BL/Heroism).

What I'm curious about is why we haven't had Steady Shot placed back at 1.5s draw speed? If we're back to pre-3.0 mechanics, save Auto Shot unlinking, in regards to haste, why hamstring the two specs that don't have access to passive haste? As it stands, MM and SV are still lagging behind BM in terms of raid DPS.

 

◊ Lactose

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/stopmacro [target=target,noexists]
/stopmacro [target=target,noharm]
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot

Same thing here, if you do not have a target, your character will not acquire a target and start attacking it.

Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max