WotLK Talents & Abilities Discussion - Page 194

ElginRoko · 10/29/08, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Rast11

I have recently done testing concerning using Chimera > Aimed > Steady x4 VS Chimera > Steady x5 and thinking about a spec at 80. Currently in 4/8 not including Aimed shot is a slight increase in DPS for me after doing 4 tests. Each test lasted about 10 minutes where I did 500,000 damage with aspect of the viper active and use no gear with a proc ability on it to keep as much constant as possible. I then did my second 2 tests with another hunter applying hunters mark because of the talent marked for death.

While the tests could be performed longer to average out crit chances even better I felt 40 minutes of shooting a dummy was good enough for me.

Another question then comes up. Your spec. Looking at the spec I am looking at for 80, am I willing to give up 350+ AP(Careful Aim), 4% armor pen on steady shots (Piercing Shots), and 2/3 in Wild quiver for 12% increased damage and crit chance on a shot that is only fired once every 10 seconds. Really Reducing all damage slightly and reducing steady even more to use Aimed.

I'm very open to others response because I am wondering what others have tried and discovered for themselves.

Aimed shot in your rotation will be inherently worse in a longer fight, since you've got to burn through a whole mana pool before its increased mana drain has any negative effect. Simulating it over a range of fights between 2.5 and 7.5 minutes, I'm finding that using it without barrage averages out as a DPS loss. With barrage + imp barrage it seems you probably want to use it regardless, the increased damage outweighs the increased mana drain.

That said, adding aimed shot into your rotation shouldn't be your motivation for taking barrage, you can spend those 6 points better for single target DPS, you take a barrage build for utility at a small dps cost. This is what I'm reckoning I'll be raiding with at 80: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft *

If I drop the barrage out of that build the best I can do with those points is rapid killing, 2 in imp hunters mark and 2 in imp steady shot, all of which are sub 0.5% dps increase talents, and since aimed is a DPS gain in a barrage build anyway some of this difference is made up.

* Depending on raid comp I'd consider moving focused aim to imp hunter's mark, but that basically requires 2 other hunters there who don't have it. Otherwise, with only 18 of 67 WotLK epic physical mail items showing on wowhead carrying hit, I'd say it'd be pretty easy to move those 99 saved item points into something more valuable

Edit:
On the second target thing, I fiddled around last night and I'm pretty sure that with auto attack/auto shot disabled the only way to clip your autos now is to enable auto-shot then start casting steady in the half second before auto fires, otherwise it seemed to be going off mid-steady last night on live. My testing on the matter wasn't thorough, but i was paying attention to it.

Also, I noticed a "Stop Attack" option directly below the auto attack/auto shot option which purports to turn off your white attacks when you change target. Given steady's cast time should be long enough for you to just cancel the cast if it starts going off on a second target, this option might well put a brake on the aggroing a second mob behaviour, which is likely caused by steady switching targets then auto going off just into the cast. Won't work if you spam your instants of course :P

baldeagle · 10/29/08, 1:09 PM

Originally Posted by Ryoushii

Some other weird shooting/targetting problems. Had an issue in instances all day today where the group would finish killing one pack of mobs and we'd move up to the next group a few seconds later. Simply targetting a new mob even after having no target for a few seconds would set off my auto shot. This was without auto shoot/auto attack checked in the interface menu and the stop auto attack when switching targets turned on.

Also see this bug when going to loot corpses. I get a "target too close" error when trying to loot as if I were trying to shoot the corpse.

Yes, a hunter in our raid group last night had same issue. His auto shot would just start firing for no apparent reason, unless after a previous fight, he clicked on a friendly target. Very strange.

baldeagle · 10/29/08, 1:24 PM

Originally Posted by Doncabesa

"Our macro" implies you're still using the 3:2 steady macro, or am I mis-reading? If you are then I'd have to suggest you stop using it, and instead just use the actual steady shot button instead as the 3:2 steady macro is unnecessary with the changes to auto shot.

The macro I was referring to is the steady shot macro, coupled with Rabid, that seems to be the new default choice for BM hunters post 3.0.

Archaus · 10/29/08, 1:38 PM

Originally Posted by Difool

My feeling, is that the first issues has been resolved. The second certainly has not been. But to my understanding, and testing, no level of macro manipulation will change the fact that with Auto Attack/Auto Shot enabled any use of special attacks (ranged or combat) will select a target for you. Period.

So if you don't want to change targets, just disable Auto Attack/ Auto Shot. You should still have unlinked autos. The only thing you will lose is not doing auto attacks if the target gets within combat range. If you don't trust this, or believe it, then try it and post back the evidence

I don't think Lactose was trying to imply that stopmacro completely alleviates the problem, and I would agree it improves the situation.

However, I also agree that disabling Auto Attack/Auto Shot is a better solution if the Auto Shot unlinking issue with that setting disabled has been fixed. Was your testing with the setting disabled on live or beta?

Doncabesa · 10/29/08, 1:49 PM

I've found whenever my ping is hover about 100 that my auto shot timer isn't resetting once combat is over as early as it should. If the bug happens and I choose a new target that is in range my auto shot toggle is still set to on with the server and it automatically shoots an auto shot without pressing a single button. As a stop-gap solution I've made a keybind macro to target my pet, which is silly that I have to do it after every pull in any decently hard dungeon or raid, but it has been the only thing I've come up with that works each time for me.

Mattaos · 10/29/08, 1:59 PM

Originally Posted by Doncabesa

I've found whenever my ping is hover about 100 that my auto shot timer isn't resetting once combat is over as early as it should. If the bug happens and I choose a new target that is in range my auto shot toggle is still set to on with the server and it automatically shoots an auto shot without pressing a single button. As a stop-gap solution I've made a keybind macro to target my pet, which is silly that I have to do it after every pull in any decently hard dungeon or raid, but it has been the only thing I've come up with that works each time for me.

Though I am confident a fix is incoming for this issue (believe this was mentioned on the beta forums), it is still silly that we have to resort to unconventional ways to combat bugs like this. I like the /tar {pet's name} idea. I found myself in SWP last night in the early AoE pack pulls striffing or jumping repeatedly after killing one mob to give me time to locate the next kill target without randomly shooting a sheep I auto targeted simply because it was in my LoS.

Glaurong · 10/29/08, 2:55 PM

The macro Lactose posted does not include a [dead] conditional. When your current target dies, the macro will still activate and your target will swap. This should probably work

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/stopattack [noexists] [noharm] [dead]
/stopmacro [noexists] [noharm] [dead]
/cast Steady Shot

Archaus · 10/29/08, 3:34 PM

Originally Posted by Glaurong

The macro Lactose posted does not include a [dead] conditional.

A variation of this was posted by Rokh a couple pages back:

Originally Posted by Rokh

Instead of those, try adding a line

/stopmacro [dead][noexists]

That would stop the macro if your target is either dead or you simply have no target. Should work well.

I tried that also and it doesn't work any better than the version Lactose proposed, though it is perhaps a bit more elegant. The stopattack and noharm differences are probably worth trying but will most likely suffer the same client/server issues as the others. I'm not sure there is anything we can do client-side to solve this.

Probably the most interesting thing to look at is why does enabling the Auto Shot/Auto Attack option cause it to happen in the first place. What would be different about the nature of the client/server interaction in that case? Or do our ranged abilities just not automatically acquire targets without that option enabled?

I know that way back in the 2.4 when I was looking into this Auto Shot would acquire a target automatically if you put it on a bar and clicked it, but when placed in a castsequence macro as !Auto Shot it would not (though I don't recall the state of Auto Shot/Auto Attack for that test.) Perhaps the loss of the castsequence is what brought this issue out again because the !Auto Shot didn't have this problem and would block the macro.

• Relwin · 10/29/08, 4:15 PM

Originally Posted by Difool

Doncabesa, this is potentially misleading advice. While it is certainly true that they have unlinked auto shot, as mentioned extensively in this thread, you seem to be implying that (a) there is a disadvantage to using the old 3:2 macro, and fail to mention the possible advantages of using a shot macro. The 3:2 macro is no longer required, but it isn't without merit.

Actually, the 3:2 macro is without merit now that KC and the auto shot clipping have been changed. The entire purpose for the macro was to not clip, which is no longer possible, thus invalidating the need for a macro to perform what right-clicking a mob/toggling Auto Shot/casting a ranged attack can perform on their own. If people are still looking to use the 3:2 macro for post 3.0 hunter DPS, they are dumb. If they still want a 'DPS button' I'm sure they'll find another macro to mash, but the need to use a macro to attain superhuman autoshot managment is no longer necessary.

Dinkadoo · 10/29/08, 4:46 PM

After a bit of quality time with doctor boom, I have 6 separate combat logs to go over. 3 with Auto Attack/Auto Shot enabled and 3 without.

All 6 of them have no haste effects to screw up their validity and i tried to keep them to 1 minute samplings the best i could. This is the macro i used while testing.

/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/stopmacro [target=target, noexists]
/stopmacro [target=target, noharm]
/cast steady shot
/cast !auto shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

The reason for !auto shot still being in my macro has already been covered in that it fires off immediately instead of after the first steady.

The 3 with Auto Attack/Auto Shot enabled.
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats

The 3 with it disabled
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats

At a brief glance it appears that disabling Auto Attack/Auto Shoot does nothing to hinder the firing of Auto Shot but i will have to strain my brain staring at text to be positive nothing is clipping. That is unless of course someone beats me to it before i get a chance.

Edit: fixed a typo

Dinkadoo · 10/29/08, 5:04 PM

Originally Posted by Glaurong

The macro Lactose posted does not include a [dead] conditional. When your current target dies, the macro will still activate and your target will swap. This should probably work

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/stopattack [noexists] [noharm] [dead]
/stopmacro [noexists] [noharm] [dead]
/cast Steady Shot

With a simple test of gathering up a few mobs and going to town on one of them this to automatically switches targets after the first dies.

Glaurong · 10/29/08, 5:05 PM

I've actually seen the same thing as Dink. I'm don't see any special behavior with auto attack/auto shot checked or otherwise.

Besides the obvious target acquisition with it checked of course.

Also with that unchecked, a /stopattack won't do anything for you. Does /stopcasting still stop autoshot? If so then, should work as a spam macro as it should break off your autoshot so you wont automagically ping the next thing you target.

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/stopcasting [noexists] [noharm] [dead]
/stopmacro [noexists] [noharm] [dead]
/cast Steady Shot

Edit: meant unchecked

Ketari · 10/29/08, 5:16 PM

Originally Posted by ElginRoko

Aimed shot in your rotation will be inherently worse in a longer fight, since you've got to burn through a whole mana pool before its increased mana drain has any negative effect. Simulating it over a range of fights between 2.5 and 7.5 minutes, I'm finding that using it without barrage averages out as a DPS loss. With barrage + imp barrage it seems you probably want to use it regardless, the increased damage outweighs the increased mana drain.

To me it seems situational: A barrage build is going to be the choice in instances where you need to do heavy AoE. While right now in places like MH that's awesome (and potentially a little broken, seen a couple of WWS parses with very very good hunter damage there), but does LK have anything like this? Otherwise, afaik it's not worth adding another shot into your single-target DPS rotation.

Kraven · 10/29/08, 5:49 PM

Deleted

Hevanus · 10/29/08, 6:07 PM

Pets don't and won't benefit from expertise on Hunter gear because Hunters don't benefit from it. On the other hand, Animal Handler is being changed to grant the pet expertise instead of +hit, so that will help a bit.

ElginRoko · 10/29/08, 8:32 PM

Right, I've discovered the following on live:
1) completing a steady shot cast enables your auto attack.
2) having auto shot/auto attack disabled doesn't cause auto shots to clip...
3) ...however starting to cast steady shot will TURN OFF your auto shot with this setting disabled
4) /stopattack does not work with auto attack/auto shot disabled
5) If your auto attack is switched on by a steady shot firing and is ready to fire, it hits the same target as the steady shot
6) If your auto attack is switched on by a steady shot firing and isn't ready to fire, when it comes ready it'll hit your current target.

For what you guys are talking about, disabling auto shot/auto attack and using a /cast srteady /cast !auto macro should achieve your no-clipping no-new-targetting thing.

Me, I like to select my next target while I'm casting the last spell that stands any chance of actually hitting, thus avoiding any dps downtime. This is a colossal pain in the backside, since while my auto attack switches off while I'm target swapping, if it comes ready 0.1s after my steady fires there's still a decent chance I'll be finding my target, which means there's a decent chance my current target will be something cced, which means there's a decent chance I'm being a nub.

I've created a thread in the eu suggestions forum if anyone cares: World of Warcraft (en) Forums -> [Suggestion] Auto shot enable/disable changes

Grigori · 10/30/08, 12:03 AM

Originally Posted by Dinkadoo

Unfortunately the changing of the targetNearestDistance lines in the macro appear to do nothing to solve the problem unless i am doing something wrong.

This is what i was using for a macro while testing it out at Firewing. Standard pet skills allocated to another macro in the multi bar click slot.

/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/console targetNearestDistance 1.000000
/use [harm,nodead]Steady Shot
/console targetNearestDistanc 41.000000
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Using this my character would still target the next closest thing to him after my current target died. Though, like the other ones, he would not do anything if i was out of combat with no target and tried to use the macro as he is supposed to.

The quandary of the latest auto shot bug continues.

After I read that I ran some tests in game and found that the macro no longer works in 3.02 because the TargetNearestDistance CVAR no longer exists. In fact, all of the CVARs I tested that triggered server-side state updates no longer existed in 3.02. Presumably this was done to lighten server load, but whatever the reason they were removed targetting is locked at ~35-yard distance in a ~35-degree arc (no more 43-yard 360-degree targetting).

This means that Hunters with Hawk Eye can't even set their tab target distance to 48.000000 (41 yards) anymore.

Berfert · 10/30/08, 1:34 AM

Originally Posted by ElginRoko

Right, I've discovered the following on live:
1) completing a steady shot cast enables your auto attack.
2) having auto shot/auto attack disabled doesn't cause auto shots to clip...
3) ...however starting to cast steady shot will TURN OFF your auto shot with this setting disabled
4) /stopattack does not work with auto attack/auto shot disabled
5) If your auto attack is switched on by a steady shot firing and is ready to fire, it hits the same target as the steady shot
6) If your auto attack is switched on by a steady shot firing and isn't ready to fire, when it comes ready it'll hit your current target.

What I was seeing (on live) didn't seem to match your results, unless I'm misunderstanding. Specifically:

With the auto attack/shot disabled, I was seeing an equal number of autos and steadies. This appeared to be caused by auto, when it fired, interrupting steady shot and causing it to restart it's cast.
With the auto attack/shot enabled, I was seeing 50:37 steady:auto shots, which is around where it should be for me.

Edit: Corrected to state higher number of steadies when enabled, rather than higher autos.

Dinkadoo · 10/30/08, 6:23 AM

I have done some more testing with longer sessions on Dr. Boom. both sessions are roughly 5 minutes long.

Auto attack/Auto Shoot enabled
Wow Web Stats

Auto Attack/Auto Shoot disabled
Wow Web Stats

I have also refined the macro I am using.

/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/use [harm,nodead]Steady Shot
/cast [harm,nodead] !auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Based off those 2 WWS reports I am confident having Auto Attack/Auto Shoot toggled off does not clip anything and it is a fix to our problem until Blizzard fixes it on their end. The real test will be in a raid situation with full buffs.

Edit: Fixed a typo
Edit: Fixed more typos. (note to self do not post at 4 AM)
Edit: Further testing in later pages shows there is still some clipping happening.

Midnight · 10/30/08, 7:09 AM

I had something strange happen to me yesterday. I had one mob trapped while attacking another one when suddenly a single arrow went for the frozen mob breaking the trap. I didn´t switch targets or use multi and as far as I can tell my other shots all hit the right one again. It was pretty good visible because, while both of them were in front of me, the trapped one was a good bit closer and to the right of the other one and a single arrow went in that direction. Can it be that there´s a bug with Wild Quiver not necessarily targeting your current but the closest target instead?

Nothing bad happend in this case - I was solo farming, but I guess this could cause more harm in a group where the trap (or any other CC for that matter) was really important. I also figure it´d make me look pretty stupid because it´d sound like the default excuse for bad playing ("wasn´t me, it´s a bug - really!").

Lilyana · 10/30/08, 7:40 AM

Like our old cries that Omen didn't register FD correctly.

On a side note, I'm using:

/Cast !Aimed Shot
/Cast Steady Shot

With the option for Autoattack ticked off.

Does this solve the problem for you? certainly seems to minimise it for me and the damage remains constant.

Garaddon · 10/30/08, 7:42 AM

Originally Posted by Midnight

I had something strange happen to me yesterday. I had one mob trapped while attacking another one when suddenly a single arrow went for the frozen mob breaking the trap. I didn´t switch targets or use multi and as far as I can tell my other shots all hit the right one again.

Well it also happened to me, just once but in a 5-man;P Hopefully we didn't wipe.
Judging from the dmg showed above that mob's head it could be Wild Quiver proc, but it would be rather difficult to respec and confirm it since it occurs too rarely...

BTW I gave a quick thought on incoming Aspect of the Viper nerf (half mana returned from shooting) and came up with this build on lv 80: MM [15-51-5]
IMO Including Aimed Shot in rotation is too mana-inefficient and I will probably stick to Chimera/Steady only, that's why I skipped Barrage completely.

Midnight · 10/30/08, 8:06 AM

I think the AotV nerf isn´t as bad as it sounds. Not costing any mana or triggering GCD helps its usability a lot and offsets at least some of the lost power. You can literally use it for every little downtime (eg not shooting anything) to switch aspecs without any real penality.

samfisher · 10/30/08, 9:31 AM

Until the new AotV hits us and makes us stay longer in 40%/50% less damage to regen mana that is.

TrevvyTrev · 10/30/08, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by samfisher

Until the new AotV hits us and makes us stay longer in 40%/50% less damage to regen mana that is.

Having to stay in it longer is one of the reasons he called it the "AotV nerf." If the new Viper resulted in the exact same mana regen, then it would be a "change," not a "nerf." What he said was that the nerf isn't as bad as it sounds because some of that longer time in Viper is "downtime" when you aren't shooting at something anyway. Our job as hunters isn't to minimize time in Viper. Our job is to do respectable dps relative to other classes in appropriate situations. We can't get hung up on time-to-and-in-Viper stats if it makes us beg the real question, which is: is our dps in the right place? So far, tests on the beta, where the new Viper is active, haven't done anything to suggest that our dps suffered excessively.