It's really nice that Ferocious Inspiration is now raid wide (as evidenced by this WWS log.) Does anyone know what the % bonus to damage is, and if stacks with or is mutually exclusive to the Ret Pally damage buff?
I would call it delayed burst, as we have to setup the shot rotation with a HM, sting, then shot rotations which take up many GCDs, and then the burst comes.
No. You get full credit from the chimera shot bonus no matter how long the sting is up. So the burst is HM, sting, chimera, steady/auto until dead (you won't need another chimera on normal mobs.)
I was just referring to how we need at least 2 GCDs to get the full benefit of chem shot. call it 3 seconds delayed burst, point is you loose some dps if you just fire all instants or go strait to steadies. thats all.
Why? The Armor debuff does not stack with Faerie Fire. At least I am fairly sure it doesn't. Anybody tested this?
Just tested this on a spider outside of Shatt. The spider had 4937 armor, determined using beast lore. Level 70 FF is 610 reduced armor, sporecloud on my level 70 sporebat was 550. Applying sporecloud to the test monster reduced it's armor to 4387, applying FF to it lowered that to 4327. Then applyging both of those at the same time lowered the armor to 4327. It appears that sporecloud is in the minor armor debuff category.
Originally Posted by Teldra
It's really nice that Ferocious Inspiration is now raid wide (as evidenced by this WWS log.) Does anyone know what the % bonus to damage is, and if stacks with or is mutually exclusive to the Ret Pally damage buff?
For most BM hunter's it is 3% and it doesn't(or isn't supposed to) stack with the retribution paladin skill.
Last edited by Sthellesta : 11/07/08 at 8:06 PM.
Reason: Forgot a word.
So I have been wondering how the stacking on the scorpid DoT works, specifically how the damage is determined. I figure it works one of three ways: determined by the damage the fist stack does per tick times the number of applications, each stack does damage based on AP and buffs at the time of the cast and the total is the sum of each stack, or the damage is determined by the damage of the latest refresh/application times the number of stacks. I wonder about this because of how it relates to my longer cooldown skills and how to maximize it's damage with them. Thank you in advance for any helpful responses.
For most BM hunter's it is 3% and it doesn't(or isn't supposed to) stack with the retribution paladin skill.
Back to the sticky issue of "who brings the raid buffs," FI is tied to Invigoration, which most BM hunters are starting to discover is invaluable to raiding. As such, Invigoration will likely become a staple of the build, and by extension so will FI. So that would allow us to free up 3 talent points our Ret Pally friends to place in raids, which could really help them out.
EDIT: Hoodwinked, I've been HOODWINKED, I say!
I just popped over to Wowhead to tinker with a theoretical ret build balanced around not having to sink 3 points into Ret Aura for the 3% damage increase, but I had it confused with Swift Retribution (the haste buff to Ret Aura). Sanctified Retribution only costs 1 point for the full 3% damage bonus to Ret Aura, as compared to BM hunters having to spend a full 3 points to get the same effect, except ours has to be activated by a pet proc. I'm not very fond of the QQ, but it's a shame that with a talent disparity like this that FI doesn't stack with Ret Aura.
In conclusion, FI saves Ret Pallies only 1 talent point, not 3. So they won't all be rushing to their trainers to respec when they hear there's a BM hunter coming to the raid.
Back to the sticky issue of "who brings the raid buffs," FI is tied to Invigoration, which most BM hunters are starting to discover is invaluable to raiding. As such, Invigoration will likely become a staple of the build, and by extension so will FI. So that would allow us to free up 3 talent points our Ret Pally friends to place in raids, which could really help them out.
EDIT: Hoodwinked, I've been HOODWINKED, I say!
I just popped over to Wowhead to tinker with a theoretical ret build balanced around not having to sink 3 points into Ret Aura for the 3% damage increase, but I had it confused with Swift Retribution (the haste buff to Ret Aura). Sanctified Retribution only costs 1 point for the full 3% damage bonus to Ret Aura, as compared to BM hunters having to spend a full 3 points to get the same effect, except ours has to be activated by a pet proc. I'm not very fond of the QQ, but it's a shame that with a talent disparity like this that FI doesn't stack with Ret Aura.
In conclusion, FI saves Ret Pallies only 1 talent point, not 3. So they won't all be rushing to their trainers to respec when they hear there's a BM hunter coming to the raid.
Exactly. It feels a bit expensive to pay five talent points for 1% mana per pet special crit. For that's the actual cost with a ret pally.
Enhancement Shamans got Unleashed Rage moved down the tree to allow them to spec out of it if an MM Hunter or DK is present. Makes sense, 5 points vs 2 or 1 and the 1 being passive to boot. They got out of that one, BM Hunters can't unless they can drop Invigoration as well. We don't know for sure that Invig will be big, or even important. But mana is never bad, if it is too good in raids, it will still help in solo, 5-mans, groupquests etc. The option to get one or the other would be fair in relation to a Ret pally.
Even worse, is the fact that we need FI to move down the tree altogether. If we don't pick it we need to pick up talents that are a bit iffy like another point(s) in Endurance Training. We are almost forced to spend those three points even if we have a ret. Seems weak.
It certainly is a sticky issue. But until Invigoration becomes a raid staple talent I won't be overly bothered.
With regard to a leveling spec's, as full BM or full surv there isn't much debate, as both of those trees are inherently well suited for them I think.
For marks, there seems to be a debate over "what will be more useful", as most of the fights will be very short and having enough time to setup the marks dps rotation will be iffy. Not sure if this has been explicitly mentioned, but marks is not strictly burst dps. I would call it delayed burst, as we have to setup the shot rotation with a HM, sting, then shot rotations which take up many GCDs, and then the burst comes.
However I feel that this is the wrong way to look at a leveling spec. At level 71, you can be full marks and have scatter shot, as well as some nice close range talents from surv to get to it. These are not very impressive in a raid environment but leveling is not a raid environment, and neither is a 5 man at level 73. You should expect to have to mix it up in close range, trap, kite, and many other things that would be unheard of in a 25 man raid.
You have to remember these encounters will not be as clean and scripted as major boss fights. Things will be hectic and a good leveling spec should accommodate this.
I don't think you really need to worry about the risks of complications while leveling if you have the kind of gear that most of us do. Yes, you will get adds occasionally and you may even have to pot, but there's very little risk of death from my experience on beta. Most of the times I died were my own fault. The only differences in leveling specs are efficiency and solo capability.
BM can solo much more difficult mobs because the pet is a great tank and Spirit Bond + Blood of the Rhino makes for pretty good healing from Mend Pet. The problem is mana efficiency, you'll have to spend some time in Viper after every 10 or so mobs.
MM kills normal mobs slightly faster and hcan basically keep going forever thanks to RR, but you lose out on the ability to solo some group quests because the pet isn't tough enough to tank them.
I know a lot of people think that it'll be quicker to level in instances, and that may very well be true. I'd rather get ahead of the leveling pack early and stay ahead of them, instead of burning myself out after my 10th Nexus run and then be stuck in the middle of the pack with the other 10,000 casuals/bads. It worked for BC and it'll very likely work for Wrath.
We don't know for sure that Invig will be big, or even important. But mana is never bad, if it is too good in raids, it will still help in solo, 5-mans, groupquests etc. The option to get one or the other would be fair in relation to a Ret pally.
Even worse, is the fact that we need FI to move down the tree altogether. If we don't pick it we need to pick up talents that are a bit iffy like another point(s) in Endurance Training. We are almost forced to spend those three points even if we have a ret. Seems weak.
It certainly is a sticky issue. But until Invigoration becomes a raid staple talent I won't be overly bothered.
Invigoration is generally as good as replenishment and JoW, it's definitely a non trivial amount of mana gained in a raid setting.
This is a break down of the mana I gained back from various sources over an almost full Naxx raid (I wasn't present for a couple of bosses) You'll see Invigoration is well worth it for a BM Hunter.
Invigoration is generally as good as replenishment and JoW, it's definitely a non trivial amount of mana gained in a raid setting.
This is a break down of the mana I gained back from various sources over an almost full Naxx raid (I wasn't present for a couple of bosses) You'll see Invigoration is well worth it for a BM Hunter.
Invigoration's only downfall is that it really needs raid-buffs to be 'great'. As a solo talent it's rather mediocre.
In that respect MM has the better talent since it's:
a) reliable (when soloing you will get nearly all killing blows)
b) 100% proc rate
c) a decent amount
Invigoration really needs a very constant stream of pet crits, which unbuffed is hard to get. On the other hand, rapid recuperation is mostly useless in raiding (for the rapid killing part), except on fights with a lot of small adds.
Invigoration really needs a very constant stream of pet crits, which unbuffed is hard to get. On the other hand, rapid recuperation is mostly useless in raiding (for the rapid killing part), except on fights with a lot of small adds.
Well, looking at that WWS Rapid Recuperation is doing a fairly significant mana restore for both the MM Hunters. Of course, yes, this isn't so much a help on many boss fights but I was surprised by the amount it did restore during the raid.
I'm also not convinced by invigoration - given a Ret Pally can be assumed for the raid group I'd be in, that's 5 talent points - but there's also not a vast number of places to put those points which help damage (survival, yes, damage no...). Hmm.
Invigoration is certainly not something I'd pick up for soloing, and I've avoided picking it up as long as I could. But just because it is bad/mediocre does not mean it's not going to become necessary for BM raiders. Crusader Strike has been a prime example of this phenomenon for ret pallies, which no matter how much they complain about it will ALWAYS be a part of an retribution build. Heck, if they nerfed it so that it was an instant strike that did 70% weapon damage, rets would still take it because it's beats the alternatives.
When speaking about a 5-point investment, the most notable DPS tradeoff would be Improved Tracking (assuming you're not going for Readiness). ~5% more damage done certainly sound enticing, but most BM hunters who take Invigoration are noticing a considerable increase in AotH Uptime. At that point, it becomes a question of ~5% more damage done or ~40% more damage done.
With resplenishment, Judgement of Wisdom and Benediction of Wisdom, do you still have mana limitation ?
In the last raids, I hadn't any, even in MM build without any regen talent and without efficiency either. I could have an infinite mana bar, except on some situational fights, like Supremus, where our ret paly can't give resplenishment half of the time.
Our WWS hasn't been posted yet, but my scorp pulled down over 1400 dps on Brutallus last night, and over 1400 dps on KJ as well. In fact, just to have some fun, I switched to aspect of the beast about 1/3 of the way through KJ... combined pet+hunter dps steadily *climbed* through the rest of the fight. Max poison tick on KJ was almost 2400.
So, scorpids = still eye-poppingly good, and Aspect of the Beast = very, very interesting.
Edit: oh, and I did notice the JoW changes in SWP, had to pop a couple fel mana pots last night. Nothing heavy, though. That said, the new viper actually made trash pulls easier... flip to viper whenever changing position, back to hawk when you stop to pew pew.
I did some samples with my current raiding spec which includes improved stings.
I tested two different combos for what I would expect to do to one mob in an instance. I can pull both combos off in under 11 seconds. I used both combos thirty times on a level 70 dummy. I did not have hunter's mark up as I don't think it's worth it to put it up on a mob that dies within 10-15 seconds. (Please proof me wrong with numbers if you feel so.)
14.5k average damage per combo, mob needs to be alive for 10.5-10.8 seconds for this combo's damage to be accurate.
I'd really like to understand what's going on here, since an 8% damage gain from doing a steady instead of ss is surprising. Assuming only self buffs and a MM build at 70, my char does about 1200 steady damage to a lvl 70 dummy, versus 1600 serpent sting damage plus an extra 600 for the chimera shot bonus. 1200 < 2200 for me so combo 1 should be best, but you're showing an effective 2100 more damage with one steady shot replacing the sting. Why?
I'll see if I get a chance to replicate your results soon.
I'd really like to understand what's going on here, since an 8% damage gain from doing a steady instead of ss is surprising. Assuming only self buffs and a MM build at 70, my char does about 1200 steady damage to a lvl 70 dummy, versus 1600 serpent sting damage plus an extra 600 for the chimera shot bonus. 1200 < 2200 for me so combo 1 should be best, but you're showing an effective 2100 more damage with one steady shot replacing the sting. Why?
I'll see if I get a chance to replicate your results soon.
He's probably not counting all the Serpent Sting ticks, since his combo's length is not the full 15 or 18 seconds.
Combo 1 consists 5 autos, 4 steadies, 3x serpent sting ticks, chimera shot and chimera shot serpent proc.
Combo 2 consists 5 autos, 5 steadies and a chimera shot.
Interesting.. I adjusted spreadsheet to use the buffs and consumables (target debuffs as well) to replicate the 5 man group I'll be in and this time combo 1 comes top by ~6%.
With combo 2's spec you'll get 1% extra hit which will be nice after a few levels as the hit cap increases and the 8% extra crit to multi-shot will bring that ~6% edge down to ~4%.
Obviously combo 2 got the edge of being more simple to use and if mob dies in less than 11 seconds you won't waste damage and mana as you would with combo 1. I don't know really what to go for, anyone else got opinions about this?
I don't know really what to go for, anyone else got opinions about this?
Only that I suspect you are solidly inside the error or margin of the spreadsheet.
My personal suggestion is to go with the one that is more fun for you to play, and then start min/maxing as more data comes in (and Blizz refines the mechanics). If you are determined to optimize right off the bat then only real way to decide is to try both .. and report back with fun WWS links of course!
Assuming that the whole leveling process is over within five or so days the time lost to respec back and forth would probably nullify the gain if there is any in the first place.
rapid recuperation is mostly useless in raiding (for the rapid killing part),
Even in a raid setting rapid recuperation will give a nice chunk of "regen" in the form of reduced mana costs.
In a 4 minute fight you're looking at 1 minute of rapid fire uptime (w/ rapid killing + readiness to get two rapid fires in a row every 3 minutes). If one shot cycle is every 10 seconds, that one minute of Rapid Fire uptime represents 6 shot cycles at 60% mana cost reduction. 1 chim / 5ss = 16% + 4%*5 = 36% base mana used every 10 seconds. Under Rapid Fire that's 60% * 36% base mana = 14.4% base mana used every 10 seconds. You're getting a minute of shots for the price of less than 30 seconds worth of mana.
Invigoration is generally as good as replenishment and JoW, it's definitely a non trivial amount of mana gained in a raid setting.
This is a break down of the mana I gained back from various sources over an almost full Naxx raid (I wasn't present for a couple of bosses) You'll see Invigoration is well worth it for a BM Hunter.
That's a lot of mana... I'm impressed. And with around 42-44% crit on specials it looks doable with Cobra Strikes.
What interests me the most though is if those Viper periods were on bosses? By the appearance of both ticks and procs it looks like it to a degree. If so, then Invigoration looks to be important for raiding. And then we are back at the general unpleasantness with the slaving to FI. Technically it makes little sense to put it there. Put Cobra Strikes there and put FI alone below Serpent's Swiftness (connected or not). That would make sense and get rid of the iffiness.
Looks like that 54(55)/14/3(2) might become reality.
Even 'worse' is the fact that we might not even want t spec IAotH any more with Aspect of the Beast doing so well. If it does good now, I wonder how well it will do at 80 where the pet does even more damage. That would change the entire beginning of our spec to full ET and a filler in Monkey. That would leave very little room for leftovers from a possible spec away from FI.
And interestingly it makes Aspect Mastery a lot less pretty. Not that I wouldn't still pick it as we need to pick something. But when you run in an aspect that isn't affected by AM, then it's only there for the odd Viper and the damagereduction in Dragonhawk.
And interestingly it makes Aspect Mastery a lot less pretty. Not that I wouldn't still pick it as we need to pick something. But when you run in an aspect that isn't affected by AM, then it's only there for the odd Viper and the damagereduction in Dragonhawk.
There are always moment where I will prefer AotH over AotB. Think about Supremus, after a few death of my pet (because it became target of him in P2) I always pulled it back. This would be a whole fight (or at least a phase) where I would switch into AotH.
The sames goes for trash. As I put my pet on passive all the time it always runs forth and back loosing DPS-time. I probably will be in AotH for trash too. Then switching into AotB for bosses (at least for the pet-friendly ones).
For me, this is perfectly okay as it makes aspect-decisions more situational.
I guess I didn't think that through entirely. But it still strikes me as not terribly great since it becomes a 'just in case' talent. We are getting to be quite gimp without our pets. In TBC BM could still hold it's own without the pet, just not top any charts.
But I suppose big trashpulls with AoE spam would make Hawk more interesting in a lot of cases.
The best would just be to include Beast somehow. I don't care if it would be non-DPS really. Something as silly as an armorincrease would be welcome, or pet speedincrease, or perhaps some pet staminaincrease.
I honestly just don't think Blizzard ever considered it a possiblity that Beast would be used anywhere important, that it would remain a very situational aspect, lumping it tigether with Cheetah, Pack and Wild. The other aspects we, more clearly are supposed to need are all affected by Aspect Mastery. That makes it not surprising if some change to Beast will happen at some point... Once again Hunters turn the game upside down and find a way off the beaten track to get on top.
That's a lot of mana... I'm impressed. And with around 42-44% crit on specials it looks doable with Cobra Strikes.
What interests me the most though is if those Viper periods were on bosses? By the appearance of both ticks and procs it looks like it to a degree. If so, then Invigoration looks to be important for raiding.
The only bosses I had to use Viper for were Kel'thuzad who has a targeted mana burn and 4H which is a pretty long fight, though it isn't shown on the WWS, probably because of the fact Baron Rivendare is one of the horsemen and WWS hasn't been set to split it properly yet.
The only bosses I had to use Viper for were Kel'thuzad who has a targeted mana burn and 4H which is a pretty long fight, though it isn't shown on the WWS, probably because of the fact Baron Rivendare is one of the horsemen and WWS hasn't been set to split it properly yet.
I see... Would you say that one point in Invigoration would yield the same Viper situation for the other bosses? I mean, when fights ended did you have loads of mana left, or were you beginning to skim the edge?
I see... Would you say that one point in Invigoration would yield the same Viper situation for the other bosses? I mean, when fights ended did you have loads of mana left, or were you beginning to skim the edge?
The WWS was taken near the end of beta so everyone was almost fully Naxx geared leading to pretty short fights. Saying that I ended most fights with 3k or more mana remaining other than the few that I needed to use Viper for brief moments on.
11/07/08, 7:11 PM
Similar Threads
