WotLK Talents & Abilities Discussion - Page 28

dssurge · 07/22/08, 3:05 AM

Originally Posted by Gokey

I personally like how they did all 3 trees. Do you really want a clear-cut obvious trees for maximum DPS? A lot of fun in this game is playing with things and finding what's best for your playstyle. I really like that there is 2 viable DPS trees, and I can even see some use for the Tenacity tree in PvP (on top of it's solo'ing and potential tanking applications). I can't wait to try them all out.

The problem is that unless you're the top DPS spec or allow others to exceed the difference between the top and your spec, you're kind of worthless in a PvE environment as a DPS class.

Playstyle aside, optimizing your ability to perform your intended roll should be the priority.

The overall changes to the Hunter talents (among other changes in Wrath) appear to be closing the gap considerably and I do hope to be able to raid as MM, BM, or Survival viably in Wrath. Any spec +/-3% DPS of another would easily be considered even and if Blizzard can achieve this balance, more power to them.

That said, most people will probably go marks/survival as not to have to babysit their pets :x

Reebz · 07/22/08, 3:20 AM

Originally Posted by Disargeria

It makes it much harder to balance, though.

Indeed, and that is my fear.

Think back to the preBC Paladin, sure we've come along way since then, but Blizzard spent so much time dumbing down each tree, the best DPS/PvP spec was the bastard child of Holy, Prot (Reckoning) and Ret (SoComm).

Final result? Bland and gimped DPS and lack of utility because of a failure in seperation of roles.

Now, look at the Paladin - distinct specialisation - and they've now shown themselves to be perfectly viable as any spec in the raid environment.

Mikari · 07/22/08, 3:21 AM

For those in beta, you said that pets at level 70 have 120 in all resistances, is this increasing as you level up? If so how much is it increasing by per level?

Chul · 07/22/08, 3:24 AM

Here are a few changes I would make to the talent trees:

Move Charge to the Cunning tree, as that suits its style better.
Perhaps move Improved Cower to another tree, as Ferocity shouldn't get it, and it already has a pet healing talent to help it stay alive
Lick Your Wounds should become a passive ability, and changed to be "Your pet becomes immune to all damage for <X>s after being resurrected by Heart of the Phoenix, but damage done is reduced by <Y>%" (say 5s and 50%?)
Increase cooldown of Rapid to 20 seconds, since you only need to cast it once every 30s this will save focus or prevent too much focus management. 20s helps ensure your pet has the focus to spent to recast it before the 5 stack drops off.
Add new talent to Ferocity that reduces the global cooldown of pets to 1.0 (same as rogues and cat druids). They're still limited to focus.
Add a new talent linked before Last Stand, whereby your ranged crits have a chance to reset the duration of Mend Pet on your pet.
Add to Last Stand that any hit that would kill your pet, its master takes instead but reduced by <X>%.
Reduce focus cost of Roar of Fortitude to 80 or 85 so there is at least enough focus for a Growl if used initially when sending pet in.

Celebrimor · 07/22/08, 3:59 AM

According to Mania's Arcana, pet modifiers are as follows:

Tree______Health______Armor____ Damage
Cunning____+05%______+05%_____+0%
Ferocity_____+05%______+10%____+10%
Tenacity____+10%______+15%_____+0%

Could it be that cunning have more focus regen? Thats the only explanation I could come up with.

Gokey · 07/22/08, 4:17 AM

Originally Posted by Celebrimor

Could it be that cunning have more focus regen? Thats the only explanation I could come up with.

Something isn't right there. Cunning is only getting a 10% boost to stats while the other 2 trees are getting 25% each?

Let's hope that's a bug.

Chul · 07/22/08, 7:03 AM

I'd implement it as:

Tree_______Health_____Armor___ Damage
Cunning_____+5%______+5%_____+5%
Ferocity_____+0%______+0%_____+10%
Tenacity____+10%______+5%_____+0%

KraxisSingular · 07/22/08, 7:49 AM

The state of Cunning is obviously an oversight, I have trouble imagining otherwise. It is just too specific.

As mentioned earlier by myself and a few others, the 5 extra points of Beast Mastery isn't needed for any tree really. And that is sad. Not that I don't want MM or Surv hunters to not have good value of their pets, but it is our 51 pointer, and the 5/5 talent ahead of it is already quite lousy. Exotics needs to be rather good to take it atm. I wouldn't like it to become the new Spirit Bond, something that shows a Hunter has little insight in his class.

I would like there to be a 3/3 talent after the top tier talents in Ferocity that increases expertice or hit or something. Or even better it makes your pet scale to an extent with your own +hit. Like 20/40/60%. That should cap hit with the 4% hit they get. Anything really to make the 5 points worth it over getting full Improved Tracking.

Zurai · 07/22/08, 8:33 AM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

Anything really to make the 5 points worth it over getting full Improved Tracking.

This is starting to bug me. Is it inability to do basic math or what?

You can do a 51/15/5 build, get BMT, all the important low-tier MM talents, AND Improved Tracking. There's no need to sacrifice Aspect Mastery or BMT for Improved Tracking, Careful Aim, Go For The Throat, or Mortal Shots.

Gearknight · 07/22/08, 8:50 AM

Originally Posted by Zurai

This is starting to bug me. Is it inability to do basic math or what?

You can do a 51/15/5 build, get BMT, all the important low-tier MM talents, AND Improved Tracking. There's no need to sacrifice Aspect Mastery or BMT for Improved Tracking, Careful Aim, Go For The Throat, or Mortal Shots.

You're right, you can sacrifice Longevity and Cobra Strikes instead - which are still better than Aspect Mastery.

Beyond the first 5 rows (25 points) of BM, there are exactly 31 points of useful DPS talents. There is no way to pick up more than 26 of them while going 51/15/5. The worst 5 of those 31 points are probably Aspect Mastery. There's your math.

Shandara · 07/22/08, 8:50 AM

Originally Posted by Zurai

This is starting to bug me. Is it inability to do basic math or what?

You can do a 51/15/5 build, get BMT, all the important low-tier MM talents, AND Improved Tracking. There's no need to sacrifice Aspect Mastery or BMT for Improved Tracking, Careful Aim, Go For The Throat, or Mortal Shots.

He means to improve Aspect Mastery so it'd be worth spending 5 points in it (which would come out of imp. Tracking according to his reasoning). In my eyes, if Aspect Mastery was improved sufficiently I'd probably take points out of GffT/Longevity first.

BM tree aside, the other trees have bigger problems really. Looking at MM, I'm confused why the procs benefit shots so randomly. Piercing Shots only affects Steady/Aim, but not Multi-shot/Kill-shot. Improved Steady Shot also doesn't affect Multi-shot, but does Kill-shot. Marked for Death the same again. Rapid Killing has been that way as well.

Rapid Recuperation, on the other hand, does affect everything. It does make Barrage (and imp. Barrage) almost useless.

Zurai · 07/22/08, 9:24 AM

Originally Posted by Gearknight

You're right, you can sacrifice Longevity and Cobra Strikes instead - which are still better than Aspect Mastery.

Beyond the first 5 rows (25 points) of BM, there are exactly 31 points of useful DPS talents. There is no way to pick up more than 26 of them while going 51/15/5. The worst 5 of those 31 points are probably Aspect Mastery. There's your math.

None of which has anything to do with Beast Mastery (the Talent).

Although I don't think Longevity will be that useful for raids, and it might be possible to down-dial Cobra Strikes or Invigoration without suffering too badly. If you can, the extra 150 RAP and 10% less damage on damage-intensive fights may well be worth the 5 talent points spent in Aspect Mastery instead.

I'm not saying I wouldn't mind an improvement to Aspect Mastery, I just think some talents people are considering "Must-Haves" may not end up quite so important.

Kaladian · 07/22/08, 9:44 AM

Originally Posted by Shandara

He means to improve Aspect Mastery so it'd be worth spending 5 points in it (which would come out of imp. Tracking according to his reasoning). In my eyes, if Aspect Mastery was improved sufficiently I'd probably take points out of GffT/Longevity first.

BM tree aside, the other trees have bigger problems really. Looking at MM, I'm confused why the procs benefit shots so randomly. Piercing Shots only affects Steady/Aim, but not Multi-shot/Kill-shot. Improved Steady Shot also doesn't affect Multi-shot, but does Kill-shot. Marked for Death the same again. Rapid Killing has been that way as well.

Rapid Recuperation, on the other hand, does affect everything. It does make Barrage (and imp. Barrage) almost useless.

This is my feelings also about MM tree. Some of the talents look great but there is no synergy with the procs and what shot are effected by those procs. Why would Imp steadyshot proc not effect steadyshot, anyone else think that is just strange?

Reebz · 07/22/08, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by Chul

I'd implement it as:

Tree_______Health_____Armor___ Damage
Cunning_____+5%______+5%_____+5%
Ferocity_____+0%______+0%_____+10%
Tenacity____+10%______+5%_____+0%

I agree, but isn't this basically what we already have?

It again is going to pigeon-hole specific pets, which from my understanding, is something that Blizzard wants to move away from.

As I previously mentioned, this is of great concern to me. Being a pure PvE raider, I feel we're going to suffer by having these muddled pet trees.

Many of you may have counter arguments in regard to "utility", PvP or potentially "5-man tanking", but look to be completely frank, a lot of us are primarily hardcore raiders. We want a spec that is pure DPS, head and shoulders above the other talent trees.

At the end of the day I'm not a hunter looking for some extra bells and whistles. No, I'm not; I'm a raider. A raider who has to defend his DPS against other raiders.

I sincerely hope I'm proven wrong, but I believe my "preBC Paladin" analogy still stands - confusion and lack of direction leads to mediocraty across all trees.

Spiry · 07/22/08, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by Chul

I'd implement it as:

Tree_______Health_____Armor___ Damage
Cunning_____+5%______+5%_____+5%
Ferocity_____+0%______+0%_____+10%
Tenacity____+10%______+5%_____+0%

Cunning now has +15%, Tenacity +15%, but leaves Ferocity behind at +10%.

I'd personally stick +5% to Ferocity's Armour and each has +15% leaving no calls of lack of balancing.