I don't think that we can get a knockback effect on a trap, though I do think a 2-second stun is quite proper. Just like with grenades. I do agree that the damage from our fire traps need to get tuned up so people actually care if they trip them. Frost/freezing traps are satisfying or irritating, depending on which side of it you're on. The same applies with snake trap. Despite the fact that pallies and mages can AoE the snakes, I've been in situations where the snakes lived the mere two seconds to spit on everything and harass (I've also been on the other side on my pally, ensuring to drop the consecrate but sometimes someone trips it before I get there and snakes still get to play a bit).
If traps have an arming delay, are visible, have to be stepped on/near to trigger, and are easy enough to avoid [so long as you're paying attention], then it shouldn't be a problem to bump the RAP coefficient from .1 to .5 and treat those traps with trepidation. A rank8 immolation trap based off 5000RAP would burn 4385 over 15s or 877 per tick. I would even say the base damage could be bumped up a bit too, but then I'm sure classes would cry over the traps they never step on because they're rarely used.
Based on this, I think the bear trap coefficient is fine. It does damage while rooting. Immolation trap barely does more damage as it stands right now, but it offers nothing else. I seriously doubt that immolation or explosive traps will be OP for PvE if beefed up to .5 RAP coefficient.. not unless there are those hunters who will try to resurrect melee-huntering (but still, it's only once every 30s for a whopping amount of mana in melee range).
- Explosive trap should get a 2-second stun upon triggering, and a raised RAP coefficient
- Immolation trap should have the base damage increased as well as a seriously raised RAP coefficient
- Bear trap, frost trap, freezing trap are fine
- Snake trap will be fine as long as it spits out level 80 snakes
We also don't have to be in melee range to do damage, but we do have a reasonable dps pet to help us.
It's comparing apples to oranges. Other classes have things because they need them to have a chance at all, in no way should that imply that we need the exact same things at the exact same cost.
I don't think the intent is to try to get the same things at the same costs, but rather to satisfy certain needs in broad strokes. Rogues used to be very susceptible to focus fire, and casters were able to nullify quite a few of their basic abilities rather easily. It was simple to put any old dot on a rogue, and basically he couldn't use Vanish effectively. It was a little too easy to kite them, which isn't fun for the class getting kited. Mechanics that induce a feeling of hopelessness (long crowd controls where you still take damage, abnormally high burst damage output, being unable to damage someone that is kiting you) make the game less "fun" if you are on the receiving end of them, and thus need counters. Melees got (and continue to get) anti-kite abilities as a result. Many of them are not talent based.
Counters can be talent based, but if you overdo that route then you end up with certain trees being the "PvP tree(s)." Player choices feel constrained, and one of the central points of Talents (customizing your character to meet your playstyle) gets lost. For better or worse, WoW is not designed (in terms of intent, at least) to be a game that mandates a certain spec to enjoy certain aspects of the game. Consider this very recent quote from Koraa about mages:
Frost is not intended to be the Mages "PvP spec" and Fire isn't intended to be the "PvE spec," they only turned out that way because of unintended factors. We're trying to make Frost more viable in raiding by allowing you to effectively freeze the target without having to nova it, allowing you to throw in some "shatter combos" in your rotation. Arcane, Frost, and Fire (and a mix thereof) should all more or less be viable in as many aspects of the game as possible. Where they should be different is in playstyle and gameplay differences (stacking Scorch vs. freezing and shatter etc.).
(emphasis added)
That's the "design philosophy" of WoW and I tend to agree with it. I also tend to think that we have some work to go before that vision is realized with Hunters (and other classes too, but this is a hunter thread). So getting back to the point about player choices and the need for "trainable" options, the idea that people are trying to convey is that unless some "types" of abilities are base abilities that the class has, the problem of "You must spec this tall to ride this ride" becomes untenable.
Consider pvp groups/arena teams like any other group. If you are forming up for an instance, you need a tank, a healer, and some dps/cc. How many of each of those varies, and which classes should fill those roles should be open to a reasonable degree (obviously your Holy priest would have trouble as the "tank", but they should do fine as the "healer" along with any other healing class/spec). Well when you carry that over to PvP, you start to see the problem that people are trying to illustrate.
PvP teams need "archetypes" just like PvE ones. Imagine there's some bug that prevents anyone's talents from working, but unfortunately you still need to play some arena games or you will be irrevocably barred from doing them ever again (due to another bug). To make matters worse, if you don't have a winning record, then your personal rating will get set to -3000, and it won't reset if you change teams. What do you do?
Yeah, I know. You'd quit. Or maybe you'd win trade. But assuming you didn't, and you had to form a team, you might want interrrupts, dps, heals, dispels, healing reduction, and some CC. You'd also want a team that could stay alive long enough to do these things. So you might pick something like:
Priest, mage, rogue.
That trio can do everything listed. You've got sap and sheep. Wound poison. Dispel (including Mass Dispel) and Spellsteal. Heals (direct and HoT). Kick and Counterspell. Stuns. Blind. AoE Fear. And while not mentioned, Mana Burn.
You've got all the PvP fundamentals, PLUS they all have some way to mitigate damage or otherwise help turn the tide when things go bad. They have to be smart about when and where to use them, but they are there. The rogue can Vanish, CloS, or Evade. The Mage can Ice Block and (eww) Mana shield. All the CC is targetable, and most can be used in /focus macros so that no one loses track of the dps target. If the mage needs to get to range, he can do it (nova/blink). If the rogue needs to get close, he can vanish/sprint. All of this happens even when talents are bugged and don't work at all.
In my obviously ridiculous scenario formed just to illustrate a point, it makes no sense to add a hunter to any team. Without talents, hunters have a mana drain, non targeted CC (avoidable and not easily reapplied), a dispel (on a CD) and okay dps. And they only have one defense if they get attacked. Aspect of the Monkey. If they want to get to range, they have -- Wing Clip? Assuming they aren't hit with an equal or better snare themselves? That's the issue with the way the designers have done things. Adding some helpful talents is all well and good, but if you don't address what you fundamentally expect the class to bring to the dance regardless of spec, then the route to PvP is going to be very limited. Imagine if rogues had to spec 11 Assassination for CloS, 11 Combat for wound poison, 21 combat for Blind, and 11 Subtlety for Evasion. Imagine that Vanish had a 30 second cooldown, but it didn't stealth you, but just forced people to lose target, and it didn't remove snares or hunter's mark like it does now. Imagine mages saying, "I'm specced Fire, so I can't counterspell" or "I'm frost, so I don't have polymorph." My brain hurts just from trying to imagine all the QQing.
I don't want copies of rogue abilities or mage ones or deathknight ones or anything else per se. But I would like people to be able to assume certain key things I should be able to do in PvP before they even know my spec, and I would like some tools to help myself stay alive long enough to do whatever it is I'm supposed to do. That way, I can go deep into my favorite tree, whatever that happens to be. (I'm sure people can guess by now, though).
I'm not sure if this has been addressed, I didn't find anything when I searched. Anyways...
Has anyone confirmed if Steady not scaling with Haste in beta is intended or a bug/oversight? I'm going to assume for now that in the final version it will scale with haste. It seems very unlikely it wouldn't.
I'm not sure if this has been addressed, I didn't find anything when I searched. Anyways...
Has anyone confirmed if Steady not scaling with Haste in beta is intended or a bug/oversight? I'm going to assume for now that in the final version it will scale with haste. It seems very unlikely it wouldn't.
Steady is affected by haste effects. Where did you hear that it isn't? Not in this thread, certainly
Except to the extent that it will abut the GCD at 1.5 second cast time, hardcapping its scaling, yes?
Yes. And that makes haste a very poor stat for Hunters (like Strength is for Rogues right now - better than nothing, but not as good as anything else you could spend budget on, including Int.)
I thought up some fun pvp balancing ideas at work. Might as well stir some discussion:
1) Change counterattack to something like: Hunter thrusts his melee weapon and knocks his target back 10 yards, stunning his target for 2-3 seconds. Target becomes unaffected by any ability or item that would increase movement speed for 10 seconds (remains on druids through shapeshifting). Can only be used for up to 5 seconds after a hunter is critically hit by a melee attack. 30 sec cooldown.
-- this ability could maybe even be undispellable like blind, or at least a disease or magic effect.
2) Make wyvern sting trainable, with a reduced sleep time of 3 seconds. Throw an Imp Wyvern sting ability into the survival tree to either increase the duration or reduce the cooldown. Leave it dispellable but allow its chance of removal to be reduced by imp stings.
3) New high tier MM or mid tier SV talent: Guided Arrow - 1.5 Second Cast. Shoots an arrow that seeks out the hunters target and hits it for X additional damage. The hunter must face the direction of the target but can shoot the projectile around objects (no LOS needed) to hit the target. 6-31 yards. 6 sec cooldown. WoW Hunter = Diablo 2 Bowazon
4) Improved Guided Arrow - 20%/35%/50% chance for Guided arrow to pierce through its target and attack it an additional time. Like a Buriza!! Haha this one is kind of here for a joke, but I hope at least someone here gets it.
I don't want copies of rogue abilities or mage ones or deathknight ones or anything else per se. But I would like people to be able to assume certain key things I should be able to do in PvP before they even know my spec, and I would like some tools to help myself stay alive long enough to do whatever it is I'm supposed to do. That way, I can go deep into my favorite tree, whatever that happens to be. (I'm sure people can guess by now, though).
That's it in a nutshell. Spec should determine who we PvP with, not whether or not we can PvP (in any meaningful sense). Our base abilities are stuck back in WoW 1.0, when PvP didn't even exist.
Unyielding Loyalty
10% Base Mana 5 Minute Cooldown
The hunter calls upon his pet to take his position in battle and trade places with his pet. Instantly trades the hunter and pets position and all movement imparing effects will be transfered to the pet.
I like this. A lot. Given that warlocks get a very similar ability, a precendent has already been set. Could be even more fun if you could swap with a stealthed pet
Honestly, though, all the great suggestions in the world don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world. Blizzard's inscrutable design team works under cover of darkness... hopefully, we'll get some useful, fun abilities. My expectation is that they'll arrive out of nowhere, and be underwhelming... 4 years of WoW has made me a little jaded
Could a beta tester possibly confirm us if the Explosive Shot is using spell crit coefficients and/or spell crit?
I've been looking at this ability, and it looks to me as if you shoot (physical) a debuff on the target, making it explode (spell), sort of a SoC shot rather then a cast.
I'ld love to know if I need to update my spreadsheet or not (a minor version of Cheeky's for WLK, releasing once it's half of what Cheeky's is worth).
Also, where does Piercing Shot exactly come into play? Is it before or after debuffs? and before or after gear?
About ammo and quivers:
I'ld very much like to see Quivers with durability, but being placed in the ammo slot instead. Sort of how Diablo (original) did it (but on the weapon itself back then) compared to Diablo II. Making every shot have a ~1-2% chance to reduce 1 durability, perhaps partially scaling with weapon speed, could mean the same 'cost' in 'reagents', but as with any other class, decrease the cost per raid night as the amount of deaths go down (similar to having to rebuff everyone after a wipe or re-popping pots, but not if you do a clean kill). **Side-note, see below**
It would also allow rep factions to provide a Quiver with e.g. more durability or more haste or an X% chance to proc a funky ability rather then just saying "grats, you made it to XXX level with YYY faction, you now need to pay ZZZ more to DPS more, while all other classes just scale inately better with gear". Not to mention inscription could provide a Minor or Lesser Glyph givong you a 1% chance on your (special) attacks to repair 1 durability on your quiver. Or perhaps add X magical damage to your damaging abilities (Fire Arrows from WC3 anyone?). You can imagine what possibilities it would have.
Note that the dura loss on deaths is also fair, after all, if you get smacked across the room by someone like e.g. Void Reaver, wouldn't you lose some arrows/bullets flying along the way? It's also easier on warriors, as they will no longer have to carry a stack of ammo, potentially asking your hunters in the raid for a couple of bullets because they forgot to restack (Yes, I've seen it happen several times already, good thing I'm an arrow man :p). Since it would be ranged attacks only it would matter almost nothing for Warriors/Rogues.
About grinding money:
Before I quit raiding (that's another story), I was the only Surv Hunter in the (T5) guild. My char is still Surv and I like it far more then BM. I also have a Protection Warrior, both are about equally geared. Now, when 2.4 came out I did the SSO quests first on my Enhancement Sham, as he was my main at the time and he needed the gold for an epic flyer. Afterwards I did the dailies with either of my alts and here is what I noticed:
With a Protection Warrior in specified prot grinding gear (dodge/parry/armor gear dual wielding Blazefury(Exec) and King's Defender(Mong) and mostly spamming Devastate) I could actually accomplish my dailies noticably FASTER then I could with a Survival Hunter. This is mostly due to the fact I could only use Auto Shot while grinding, basicly cutting my DPS in half. That would come close to that of a prot warrior, if it wasn't for the fact that he actually got a ~20% DPS increase due to Dual Wield as well as not being in Defensive Stance (Battle for melee mobs, zerk stance for Pummeling casters FYI). The plate repair bill vs ammo/pet food cost equaled eachother out btw.
Back tot the point; because of the crap way to grind (simple Devastate spam vs watching Omen more carefully then in raids) my warrior is now Exalted while my Hunter is still Friendly. I'm aware that pet threat is getting a buff next expansion, but so is tank-spec threat (through damage) so I don't expect a major change, if only that they both come a bit closer to my Enh sham (Water Shield + Sham Rage = 0 downtime while doing truckloads of DPS). If you need their profiles, I now own my personal guild, all my alts are Rank 1 members. Feel free to poke me for a link to my Warrior's grinding gear, as he will probably be in his usual show-off or tanking gear.
PS: bit drunk right now, so tell me if I made grammar/typo mistakes :P
**Side-note**
I'm aware that Warlocks would still need soul shard bags and it's not fair as they have wands etc. but this ain't a Warlock thread. (Hint: stacking Soul Shards up to 50 anyone?)
WarTotem, it's really no wonder that you are grinding that slowly, when you try to let your pet hold the aggro. I play Sv myself and until recently certainly wasn't any better geared than T5 (still partly amn't), but never had an issue with simply nuking the questmobs down. I just have Growl turned off all the time and the monsters usually tempt to have died to my normal dps rotation just when they arrive in melee range.
Contrary to its tooltip, weapon damage is not added unmodified, it's still being converted as if you were using a 2.8 speed weapon.
That's rather intersting to see. Have you tried reporting it yet as a bug? Because if this would be true, there seems to be no reason anymore to go for slow weapons, as almost all talents benefit far more from fast weapons, which would negatively effect our arrow costs. It would negatively impact all future set bonuses and trinket procs that work with a PPM though.
Btw, you can shorten the formula to "SteadyShotDamage = AutoShotDPS*2.8 + SteadyShotBonusDamage + [Dazed: DazedBonusDamage]". Excluding iAotH & Wild Quiver though.
Originally Posted by Conscience
WarTotem, it's really no wonder that you are grinding that slowly, when you try to let your pet hold the aggro. I play Sv myself and until recently certainly wasn't any better geared than T5 (still partly amn't), but never had an issue with simply nuking the questmobs down. I just have Growl turned off all the time and the monsters usually tempt to have died to my normal dps rotation just when they arrive in melee range.
The problem is that I don't have sufficient gear to burst them down like that. Not to mention it does requires some extra range to start every mob, which at that time wasn't possible either, due to spawn-camping from other classes who don't HAVE to be at range to grind efficiently.
But if you could PM me your burst cycle/priorities, I'ld love to give it a shot (pun intented) and see if it's any better then boring send pet+serpent sting+loot combo Who knows, I might actually consider getting another Exalted faction on my Hunter
I agree and I just wanted to add in some further points.
Someone mentioned this on the Beta Hunter forum, and I liked the phrasing: "It feels like Hunters are being designed from the perspective of classes that fight against them in Arenas, not from a Hunter's perspective."
So, in short, the idea is that a lot of the arguments for PvP (and specifically Arena PvP) mobility/survivability concerns (both for the hunter and, especially in the latter case, the pet) are falling on relatively deaf ears. I'm not sure if I agree with that, as there are changes coming/going in that make it seem like they are listening.
I think Blizzard's greatest fear at this point is alienating the 900 billion Rogues who rape the Arenas like it's their job, because they'll be incredibly vocal if the "Huntard" isn't anything but a giant sign that says "You will win this match if you can Shadowstep." That's essentially what a Hunter is to an Arena-spec Rogue: A free kill. Regardless of how the Hunter is specced, EVERYTHING is seemingly stacked in the Rogue's favor, including the fact that the hapless Hunter's teammate will be so focused on trying to carry the poor bastard that his/her healer will be at a disadvantage due to mana issues whether or not the Hunter lives.
I think the point stands that Rogues genuinely seem to be designed by someone who actually plays a Rogue, and consequently they get changes that help them and make the class a lot of fun stands quite well on its own two feet. Hunters, on the other hand, are essentially told: "You are fine because this one time this one Hunter got off a few shots and it, like, hurt me and stuff and we almost lost and things and thus you are fine and now I am going to go back to raping you on my Rogue/Warrior/Druid because lol Huntard gtfo out of Arena you don't belong idiot."
That's equivalent, in my mind, to telling Elemental Shaman that they're fine in live arenas because they got a few lightning bolts off before getting decimated by melee, or saying to any other healer in this game that they are just as effective, powerful, and mobile as any Resto Druid in Arenas and thus they should sit down, shut up, and l2p. Neither of those arguments hold any water, and no one would defend them. Yet they're immediately analogous to the consistent arguments leveled against Hunter Arena PvP on a daily basis, from player, primarily, but also, indirectly, through Blizzard's general unwillingness to listen to their player base on a level comparable to how they've listened to Rogues, in particular.
(Disclaimer: Despite all this Rogue bitching I don't actually HATE Rogues, I'm just incredibly jealous of how much amazing attention they get, and how they can feasibly play the class they enjoy in every aspect of this game fairly and competitively; whereas I, effectively, can't unless I feel like giving myself an enema. They're an incredibly well designed class, and we're a generally poorly designed class and always have been rather haphazardly thrown together, in my opinon.)
(Also, I DO hate Druids but only because I can't Beast Lore them 100% of the time. It's the only way to make those God damn hippies learn! )
So the question is, WHY?
Back when TBC hit, I was of the mindset that no one at Blizzard played a Hunter at all. You can go back to some of my (rather ridiculous) posts on the topic back then, and you'll find that I generally felt that they just didn't listen to us at all, and that they clearly had no real idea what we did in any situation aside from "uhh... shot bow". That has been rectified to a certain extent in WotLK. I don't think anyone can argue that Blizzard ISN'T listening at this point, I mean there's some amazing changes coming down the pipe (the final death of Shot Weaving, Pet Talents/Abilities/Leveling Changes!), but if you notice, a lot of them are focused primarily on PvE. I think Blizzard has been looking at us in a PvE respect ever since we started spamming a macro to do the shot weaving thing for us, because it was both better and freed up our time for other things, and, to their credit, they've put a bullet into the skull of shot weaving as if it were a rabid dog. (It was worse. I kicked the corpse a few times. Pure stupid oozed out. True story.)
That's fantastic and great and I'm very happy that they've started to wake the hell up and realize that this class has been essentially unfinished since the retail release of WoW. I honestly think Hunters are starting to get the polish they deserved from day one, which Blizzard never had the time for previously. That's fantastic, and I'm thrilled.
Yet at the same time, I don't think Blizzard is accurately looking at the PvP issues. I'd love to see someone at Blizzard sit down and try to Arena on a Hunter on the 2.4.3 build right now. I think it's fairly obvious to those that have played the class in any respect (even someone such as myself, who, admittedly, has never stepped into an Arena in any serious fashion simply because he's been told a thousand and one times by quite good Hunters in his guild, on his server, and elsewhere not to even bother doing so with that character unless you enjoy drain team comps or playing on gimmick teams), that Blizzard just doesn't get it. If Hunter players designed a misc. melee class, that class would have no mobility; if misc. melee designed the Hunter class, the Hunter would have no mobility. Sound familiar?
That being said, I don't think that they CAN'T get it. They're certainly listening, much more than at any time I can recall in the past. That pretty much necessitates constructive bitching on our part, because if we don't bring it up, Blizzard won't do it, because, again, I doubt they're playing the class in the Arena aspect at the least. It's kind of our job as beta testers to throw random ideas out there in this phase.
You're all going to kill me now, aren't you?
Last edited by Gonkish : 08/07/08 at 9:52 PM.
How can you help?
I can shoot things and then make my pet move toward them.
Piercing Shots:
Currently has no effect on the target.
Rapid Recuperation:
For some reason this does not last as long as Rapid Fire (11 seconds vs 15 seconds). Rapid Recuperation also does not trigger upon delivering the killing blow to an opponent granting you Rapid Killing.
All the above bugs have been submitted in-game.
Marked For Death:
The increases the critical strike damage bonus part is applied to every target, not just the target you've marked.
The critical strike damage bonus stacks with the critical strike damage bonus of Mortal Shots.
With both 5/5 Marked For Death and 5/5 Mortal Shots A shot hitting for x will crit for 2.41x.
This should probably be 2.4x, error could be due to rounding done by me. It might also be a bug.
Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max
As far as what Gonk wrote...It all just resonates with me. I think even outside of the general "huntard" or equally clueless people who play this game of any class and spec..it seems more and more people who "know whats going on" feel the same way about the Hunter class.
Its generally the feeling that we are designed by someone looking in, not someone wearing the boots. I've always been a very vocal complainer in my guild about how hunters were disadvantaged, and looking back...over the course of time the people in my guild who took Arena seriously changed from going "lol QQ NUBZ" to agreeing that Hunter's had a rough time of it as far as pvp concerned. But when I asked them what they think would be a good way to help hunters and make them more competitive...they gave me the same answer that blizzard seems to fall back to.
As far as what Gonk wrote...It all just resonates with me. I think even outside of the general "huntard" or equally clueless people who play this game of any class and spec..it seems more and more people who "know whats going on" feel the same way about the Hunter class.
Its generally the feeling that we are designed by someone looking in, not someone wearing the boots. I've always been a very vocal complainer in my guild about how hunters were disadvantaged, and looking back...over the course of time the people in my guild who took Arena seriously changed from going "lol QQ NUBZ" to agreeing that Hunter's had a rough time of it as far as pvp concerned. But when I asked them what they think would be a good way to help hunters and make them more competitive...they gave me the same answer that blizzard seems to fall back to.
Hunter's are fine.
The thing is this: Pre-BC, we were fine. Sure, Arcane Shot was a piece of garbage and having to resort to an Aimed Shot/Multi-Shot rotation was stupid but it worked. As far as PvP went, we were damned powerful an couldl, in most cases, drop any class in game with the exception of the extremely cutting edge played characters.
Then they fixed us a bit. Then they released TBC talents before the expansion and we became gods. We decimated everything the battle grounds cause *shocker* we were using lvl 70 talents in PvE gear against clothies. Hell, I was in full warlord armor w/ the Warlord Xbow and I could melee down Warriors as a 0/21/30 spec.
The problem that has been plaguing us ever since the above isn't so much that we're being altered/designed by people who don't play the class. The problem is that they're trying to prevent the pre-TBC debacle while trying not to totally gimp what we can do outside of the arenas. But the reality of the current game is that the only players with any REAL survivability and mobility are SL/SL Warlocks, Warriors, Rogues, and Druids. Priests have 1 form of CC and are pretty much easy kills with 2+ people on them. Mages have 2 forms of CC (one is ghetto) and are easy kills with 2+ people on them (Ice Block is a joke). Shamans have NO CC and are easy kills with 2+ people on them. The only reason that the first four classes make it is because they either burst down their targets, have obscene escape/mobility options, have obscene amounts of survivability, or all of the above.
Now then, a lot of people bring up Rogues and Cloak of Shadows. CloS was always intended as being a base ability so we need to let it go. If any of you ever raided pre-TBC, you can remember how often Rogues were destroyed in PvE by the even the most basic of AoE damage. Lava packs in Molten Core were guaranteed Rogue deaths. The gauntlet in BWL was a guaranteed Rogue death nell. And there wasn't a trash pull in AQ40 that didn't have some form of AoE. The problem with CloS was that the devs didn't foresee the impact that it would have on PvP. To complicate this further, the devs had NO idea how their brand new poorly tested beta talents and abilities would impact the landscape of the new PvP. Do you think, for an instant, that Blizzard wouldn't go back in a heart beat and change how things were if they could? Hell, they made it a point that there wasn't going to be as huge of a jump in stats in WotLK as there was in TBC because Warlocks with 13k hit points are just retarded.
I'm on a freaking 48hour no-sleep bender so forgive me if the above isn't all that coherent. Hunters need help and a lot of it. But the concept of moving things to base abilities because class X had it done for them is asinine. And quite frankly, 11 point mobility/CC talents should be just fine...the reasoning for them NOT being enough is more because of the incomplete nature and half assed situation that we're in now and the fear or repeating our past.
Yea, different classes are indeed different. There's nothing *wrong* with a class getting core abilities from talents, aside from the choices it forces you to make. That's my biggest contention with Master's Call/Deterrence/Aimed. It's simply not an interesting choice.
Personally I think a lot of the changes do inspire confidence. My two biggest complaints about hunter pvp ability are our inability to keep up when being los kited and inability to peel properly against certain classes. I don't really feel overly vulnerable mitigation/avoidance wise, but I generally 2s/3s with a priest which is just a giant aggro beacon for the melee fucks running wild the last two seasons.
The removal of autoshot casting time alone should help a bit with being kited like a little bitch, and there's promise of two other mystical abilities to help out. Even if I balk at the idea of more buttons to click, anything's anything. Also Kill Shot should help in finishing off targets, a huge extension of los issues. I for one frequently feel hopelessly retarded for my inability to finish targets, and I really don't know how much of that is the class.
The Tenacity tree looks to be an absolute godsend for assisting teammates too, to the point that I almost feel like ignoring it until it gets nerfed than to get my hopes up. Intervene, mini-spirit link, fel armor twice over, and last stand; are you kidding me?
So yea, it's a little of column A and a little of column B. For all the Pet Resil/Deterrence Shall Save The World/AotB nonsense, they seem to be getting some really detailed shit right, like a dispel that isn't a rage feed and Bestial Swiftness for all pets. I actually can't quite think of a pvp issue that isn't at least getting looked at, and that's reassuring.
But the concept of moving things to base abilities because class X had it done for them is asinine. And quite frankly, 11 point mobility/CC talents should be just fine...
While I do agree that asking for a candy just because little Johnny got one isn't the way to go, there's still some relevancy in making those sorts of comparisons. I don't know where the idea that CLoS was always supposed to be a base ability came from. I never saw anything that even hinted at that being true. However, the similarities can definitely be seen with Iceblock. That was never meant to be a base ability, but it was given to mages because the developers felt mages needed something to help with being trained on. I guess the only real difference is Iceblock was given because the developers felt it was the right move on it's own merits, not because druids got Innervate or some such.
Regardless of if it's a talent that becomes a base ability or something brand new that's given to us, as Blizzard so often likes to do, the idea is still there that we absolutely need some sort of ability to help us when we're focused and it should not be talented. The reason for this ability being base is twofold. For one, all three trees could use some pruning right now, especially mid to high tier marks. However, if we need to spend points for required survivability, that very much limits our options elsewhere in the trees. For another, mobility/anti-training is absolutely needed by all three specs. That screams base ability to me.
Steady is affected by haste effects. Where did you hear that it isn't? Not in this thread, certainly
The tooltip doesn't reflect it if it is indeed affected by Haste. I have around 70 Haste, plus Serpent's Swiftness/Quiver on beta and can't notice any difference at all from normal 2s cast.
Again, this is on beta. I know it's affected by haste on live. I'm just wondering if anyone knows if it's intended or not. Seems like a rather large nerf if it's working as intended.
I think a trainable shot that does no damage and has a knock down effect would help. Obviously the shot would have to be short range like scatter. Then there could be an option that it provides a daze effect as well if you spec'd in concussive shot. This would help get a little bit of breathing space when trying to get out to ranged again and can double as an interupt on a healer. The idea is from the riot-control bean bag guns they actually use in real life.
And my crazy idea which would require a fair bit of work on Blizzards side is to not have a set range for ranged weapons but rather have it determined by the weapon you have equiped. Allowing for short range low damage weapons. The major problem with this is they would have to re-work/edit all the existing ranged weapons in the game. Although they could just tag all existing weapons with 5-35 yard range and only vary it in WOTLK.
As far as new skills go, I'd rather add something to existing skills first, as my bars are pretty full as is. What about having Disengage propel the hunter backwards a good distance, for starters? Give it some real use in both PvE and PvP.
Originally Posted by MetallicaRulez0
The tooltip doesn't reflect it if it is indeed affected by Haste. I have around 70 Haste, plus Serpent's Swiftness/Quiver on beta and can't notice any difference at all from normal 2s cast.
Again, this is on beta. I know it's affected by haste on live. I'm just wondering if anyone knows if it's intended or not. Seems like a rather large nerf if it's working as intended.
It seems to me on Beta that, even though the tooltip doesn't reflect it, Haste does affect Steady Shot.
Seeing as how Blizzard is thinking about us being better in melee (indicated by the AotB change), I wonder if we could come up with something that may work. We've always seen ourselves as purely a ranged class, but perhaps that is not what hunters should only be. We're already a hybrid of sorts, doing physical damage but from range yet using mana. So why not take this further by being a ranged and melee hybrid; druids and warriors can pop between dps form and tank form, why not have hunters swapping between ranged and melee dps form?
So, what if Blizzard gave us two stances (or 'forms'): A ranged stance, and a melee stance?
The two stances would swap the slot bars in a similar manner to stances/forms. The range stance would work as we do now, granting us our ranged abilities like Steady Shot. The melee stance will grant us new and exciting melee abilities, but not many, if at all, ranged abilties. Aspect of the Beast could give us +AP as they planned and be the melee equivalent of Aspect of the Hawk.
Blizzard could tweak some talents so they apply to melee too (like Serp Swiftness), and give new ones in the Survival tree. Survival already has melee oriented abilities like Deterrance, Counterattack and +Parry, it wouldn't be hard to see Survival hunters with their pets holding their own against melee. MM Hunters would be left out a little, but I'm sure something could be done (like Master Marksmen being renamed and give +10% melee and ranged AP, Marked For Death applying to melee abilities, Scatter Shot could be usable in melee stance, and even Ranged Weapon Specialisation could be useful in melee if there was a ranged weapon attack ability - smaking the target with your gun/bow).
I think it would be quite interesting to see a rogue run towards us thinking we're an easy kill, only for our pet to disarm him, getting beaten on by the hunter and then getting wingclipped to prevent running away.
I doubt this would ever come about, but it would be an interesting thing to test.
Just one thing i don't understand. Right now in TBC haste has its limits, u cant lower your autoshot speed below ~1.65, unless ruining shot rotation, but still i cant fire specials but every 1.5 seconds. The change in wotlk, that this lower boundary has been removed, autoshot cannot be broken, but still can fire specials only every 1.5 seconds. How can haste be worse than it is now?
Haste effects only autoshot, and steady cast down to 1.5, just like it is now, only without limits. It sounds haste going to have better value than it has now.
Haste is useful at the moment down to the point of being haste capped(around 1.65 full cycle time depending on latency) at which point more haste has an almost zero benefit.
In Wotlk our steadies will be down to just under 1.5s cast with just quiver and serpents swiftness(as BM) and with quiver and windfury(as Marks/Surv) so any extra haste we pick up will only affect the frequency of our autoshots because of that fact we will be chaining steady casts back to back(which we are never doing on live)
Yes i understand that haste has no effect on any of our specials as bm, but so it hasn't now. Tha fact that there is no haste cap in wotlk means, theoretically we can bring autoshot down to 1.2 which means averagely constant quickshot uptime. U can reach haste boundaries where one more auto fits in while quickshot is up. e.g. at 1.7 u can fire 7 auto while quickshot is active. I still dont get where can haste be less good, cheeky or anyone could give an explanation would be appretiated.
08/07/08, 2:32 PM
Who knows, I might actually consider getting another Exalted faction on my Hunter 
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