WotLK Talents & Abilities Discussion - Page 5

Zurai · 07/18/08, 4:37 PM

Originally Posted by Negative

I'll have to play around with the talents some more when I get home from work. Just trying to toss everything around this morning I wasn't able to fit all three of those in the same build. Will edit with results later.

HERE is a sample build that has all 3. If Beast Mastery turns out to be worthwhile, you can take 1 point from Invigoration and put it there with no other changes.

The only major talents that build misses are Longevity, Rapid Killing, and Improved Hunter's Mark. Someone in the raid will need Imp Mark - that's 300 AP for melee - but Longevity and RK are "nice to have but not really that vital" IMO. I do have to crunch the math to see what kind of DPS increase 40% less rapid fire cooldown is vs 150 constant AP, though.

Sean · 07/18/08, 4:41 PM

I definitely think Beast Mastery is worthwhile - the extra 5 points for the pet is pretty huge.

I'd personally probably drop 1 point from Cobra Strikes rather than Invigoration - or maybe even only go 4/5 Imp Aspects.

Zediono · 07/18/08, 4:45 PM

Well now since we're starting to have an idea as to what abilities we're getting... lets start and see what viable shot rotations we've got.

Note: as mentioned above, Steady shot has a 2sec cast time on the current beta.

Beastmastery: such as 51/15/5

Target above 20% HP
* Steady shot rotation with KC (will arcane shot do more DPS than Steady shot for a BM hunter?)

Target under 20% HP
* 1 Kill Shot - 3 Steady Shot rotation

Marksmanship: such as ???

* Not sure at the moment

Survival: such as 0/20/51

Target above 30% HP
* 1 Explosive Shot - 3 Steady Shot rotation

Target between 30% and 20% HP
* Not sure at the moment

Target under 20% HP
* 1 Explosive Shot - 1 Kill Shot - 2 Steady Shot rotation

I'm sure there are plenty of other rotations, we'll have to try them all out, but just trying to list the ones that come to mind for now

Kigale · 07/18/08, 4:46 PM

Any news on stable slots?

Sean · 07/18/08, 4:47 PM

Btw, does anyone know a good way to really test the GCD? I'm not sure how to scientifically do that so to speak.

The best I could come up with was playing with Boom and haste effects - at 1.4 delay I could queue up my next Steady Shot as soon as it hit the little red bar the end of the Quartz bar. At 1.2 delay I could hit another Steady as soon as the shot fired off. Though at 1.0 I could not. 100 ping, for reference.

Zurai · 07/18/08, 4:47 PM

Yeah, there's a few options. It may even turn out that Longevity is a better place to put points than Imp Aspects - lowering cooldowns on some of the pet talents and the (insane if they work on bosses) pet skills could be killer.

I'm just saying that there's no need to automatically dismiss Improved Aspects. It doesn't replace any other pure-damage ability; you can get it and the other available low-tier damage abilities at the same time.

Sean · 07/18/08, 4:48 PM

Originally Posted by Kigale

Any news on stable slots?

None currently, but before the Alpha boards were wiped it was said that they were planning on it I believe.

Tyrion · 07/18/08, 4:49 PM

Catching a druid in a bear trap causes them to be crit with [Irony] for over 9000.

On a serious note; Wow blizzard is really doing a great job of making all the trees (for most classes) seem viable to put a majority of points into. 'Most' talents are worthy of a "Hey thats great too". I find myself hard-pressed to swap points out to make a "hybrid" build because the trees seem to be much better thought out.

The only thing I could ask for is to make readiness not have a global and, on that train of thought:
1. Rapid fire compiles (ie 2x = 30s rapid fire)
or
2. Rapid fire stacks and affects GCD in some way
or
3. Affects trinkets

1 I would really like to see, as it would nicely re-sync timing. 2 and 3 are merely a pipe dream

Zediono · 07/18/08, 4:52 PM

Originally Posted by Sean

Btw, does anyone know a good way to really test the GCD? I'm not sure how to scientifically do that so to speak.

The best I could come up with was playing with Boom and haste effects - at 1.4 delay I could queue up my next Steady Shot as soon as it hit the little red bar the end of the Quartz bar. At 1.2 delay I could hit another Steady as soon as the shot fired off. Though at 1.0 I could not. 100 ping, for reference.

I dont know of any mods that could help, but have you tried the /combatlog command? You'll need to have some haste to test it out though, and have to take into account your 100ms and all. Not exactly sure if it'll be accurate or not though. Then you can just read the combat log and see if your steady fire under 1.5sec between each other.

bimmian · 07/18/08, 4:57 PM

Is it possible to provide a screenshot of the Steady Shot tooltip?

Ralnar · 07/18/08, 5:21 PM

I matched wowhead to the trees provided a page or two back.

Ferocity

Tier 1
Cobra Reflexes 2/2
Increases your pet's attack speed by 30%. Your pet will hit faster but each hit will do less damage.

Dash 1/1
20 Focus
Instant 30 sec cooldown
Increases your pet's movement speed by 80% for 15 sec.

Great Stamina 3/3
Increases your pet's total Stamina by 12%.

Natural Armor 3/3
Increases your pet's armor by 15%.

Tier 2
Improved Cower 2/2
Your pet's Cower also decreases damage taken by 20% for the next 10 sec.

Loyalty 2/2
Your pet's attacks have a 20% chance to increase its happiness by 10% and heal 5% of its total health.

Spiked Collar 3/3
Your pet does an additional 9% damage with all attacks.

Boar's Speed 1/1
Increases your pet's outdoor movement speed by 30%.

Tier 3
Avoidance 3/3
Reduces the damage your pet takes from area of effect attacks by an additional 75%.

Lionhearted 2/2
Reduces the duration of all Stun and Fear effects used against your pet by 30%.

Charge 1/1
35 Focus 8 - 25 yd range
Instant 25 sec cooldown
Your pet charges an enemy, immobilizing the target for 1 sec, and adds 25% melee attack power to the pet's next attack.

Tier 4
Heart of the Phoenix 1/1 (Requires Loyalty 2/2)
10 min cooldown
When your pet dies, it miraculously returns to life with 10% health. Cannot occur more than once per 10 minutes.

Spider's Bite 3/3
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your pet by 30%.

Great Resistance 3/3
Your pet takes 9% less damage from Arcane, Fire, Frost, Nature and Shadow magic.

Tier 5
Rabid 1/1
60 Focus
Instant 10 sec cooldown
Your pet goes into a killing frenzy, increasing attack power by 5%. Successful attacks have a 50% chance to increase attack power by an additional 5%. This effect will stack up to 5 times. Lasts 30 sec.

Lick Your Wounds 1/1 (Requires Heart of the Phoenix 1/1)
Channeled 3 min cooldown
Your pet heals itself for 25% of its total health over 10 sec while channeling.

Call of the Wild 1/1 (Requires Spider's Bite 3/3)
100 Focus
Instant 5 min cooldown
Your pet roars, increasing the melee and ranged attack power of all party members within 20 yards by 5%. Lasts 20 sec.

Cunning

Tier 1
Cobra Reflexes 2/2
Increases your pet's attack speed by 30%. Your pet will hit faster but each hit will do less damage.

Dash/Dive 1/1
20 Focus
Instant 30 sec cooldown
Increases your pet's movement speed by 80% for 15 sec.

Great Stamina 3/3
Increases your pet's total Stamina by 12%.

Natural Armor 3/3
Increases your pet's armor by 15%.

Tier 2
Improved Cower 2/2
Your pet's Cower also decreases damage taken by 20% for the next 10 sec.

Mobility 2/2 (Requires - Dash/Dive)

Reduces the cooldown on your pet's Dive ability by 30 sec.

Spiked Collar 3/3
Your pet does an additional 9% damage with all attacks.

Boar's Speed 1/1
Increases your pet's outdoor movement speed by 30%.

Tier 3
Avoidance 3/3
Reduces the damage your pet takes from area of effect attacks by an additional 75%.

Lionhearted 2/2
Reduces the duration of all Stun and Fear effects used against your pet by 30%.

Carrion Feeder 1/1
Instant 2 min cooldown
Your pet can generate health and happiness by eating a corpse. Will not work on the remains of elemental or mechanical creatures.

Tier 4
Great Resistance 3/3
Your pet takes 9% less damage from Arcane, Fire, Frost, Nature and Shadow magic.

Owl's Focus 1/1
Your pet has a 10% chance after using an ability that the next ability will cost no Focus if used within 8 sec.

Cornered 2/2
When at less than 35% health, your pet does 50% more damage and is 50% less likely to be critically hit.

Feeding Frenzy 2/2 (Requires - Spiked Collar 3/3)
Your pet does 40% additional damage to targets with less than 20% health.

Tier 5
Wolverine Bite 1/1 (Requires Great Resistance 3/3)
20 Focus 5 yd range
Instant 10 sec cooldown
A fierce attack causing 5 damage that your pet can use after its target dodges. Cannot be dodged, blocked or parried.

Roar of Recovery 1/1 (Requires Owl's Focus 2/2)
30 Focus 30 yd range
Instant 6 min cooldown
Your pet's inspiring roar restores 40% of your total mana over 8 sec.

Bullheaded 1/1 (Requires Cornered 2/2)
40 Focus
Instant 3 min cooldown
Removes all movement impairing effects and all effects which cause loss of control of your pet
Your pet roars, increasing the melee and ranged attack power of all party members within 20 yards by 5%. Lasts 20 sec.

Tenacity

Tier 1
Cobra Reflexes 2/2
Increases your pet's attack speed by 30%. Your pet will hit faster but each hit will do less damage.

Dash 1/1
20 Focus
Instant 30 sec cooldown
Increases your pet's movement speed by 80% for 15 sec.

Great Stamina 3/3
Increases your pet's total Stamina by 12%.

Natural Armor 3/3
Increases your pet's armor by 15%.

Tier 2
Spiked Collar 3/3
Your pet does an additional 9% damage with all attacks.

Boar's Speed 1/1
Increases your pet's outdoor movement speed by 30%.

Blood of the Rhino 2/2 (Requires Great Stamina 3/3)
Increases your pet's total Stamina by 2% and increases all healing effects on your pet by 40%.

Pet Barding 2/2 (Requires Natural Armor 2/2)
Increases your pet's armor by 6% and chance to Dodge by 2%.

Tier 3
Avoidance 3/3
Reduces the damage your pet takes from area of effect attacks by an additional 75%.

Improved Growl 2/2
Your pet's Growl generates 20% additional threat.

Lionhearted 2/2
Reduces the duration of all Stun and Fear effects used against your pet by 30%.

Intervene 1/1
40 Focus 8 - 25 yd range
Instant 30 sec cooldown
Your pet runs at high speed towards a group member, intercepting the next melee or ranged attack made against them.

Tier 4
Grace of the Mantis 2/2
Increases your pet's Dodge chance by 4% and hit chance by 4%.

Great Resistance 3/3
Your pet takes 9% less damage from Arcane, Fire, Frost, Nature and Shadow magic.

Tier 5
Last Stand 1/1 (Requires Avoidance 3/3)
Instant 6 min cooldown
Your pet temporarily gains 30% of its maximum health for 20 sec. After the effect expires, the health is lost.

Taunt 1/1 (Requires Improved Growl 2/2)
5 yd range
Instant 3 min cooldown
Your pet taunts the target to attack it for 3 sec.

Roar of Fortitude 1/1 (Requires Grace of the Mantis 2/2)
100 Focus
Instant 5 min cooldown
Your pet roars, increasing the total health and Dodge chance of all party members within 20 yards by 10%. Lasts 40 sec.

Negative · 07/18/08, 5:33 PM

Zurai, for your build I'd probably rather take 3/5 Frenzy and drop that point into the 51-pointer than taking it from Invigorate. I think we'd be safe with 3/5 simply because of Cobra Strikes.

Zurai · 07/18/08, 5:36 PM

Originally Posted by Negative

Zurai, for your build I'd probably rather take 3/5 Frenzy and drop that point into the 51-pointer than taking it from Invigorate. I think we'd be safe with 3/5 simply because of Cobra Strikes.

Not possible, unfortunately, or I'd already have done it. You can't reduce Frenzy under 4/5 without spending points in some useless talent lower in the tree.

I'm also not convinced that we'll need a full 2/2 Invigorate. At 2/2, we'll be spending very, very little mana and possibly actually be regaining mana. I think 1/2 will be enough, but of course there's no way for me to test that at the moment.

Gokey · 07/18/08, 5:46 PM

I went ahead and made a Hunter Pet Talent tree for WoTLK Beta. It should be 100% accurate except for the location on some of the tiers. I'm not actually in the beta so I just plopped them in there. Thanks to Sean for the information.

Obviously, it's not entirely usable because the trees were built for hunters, but I'm sure some of you will find it useful.

War Tools :: Talent tree WoTLK Pet Talents

If you haven't read above; all pets only get one tree (it's based off their class type). At level 80, you get 16 talent points to distribute. Each tier requires 3 talent points to advance to the next.

Enjoy!

edit: whoops! 16 talent points, not 21!

Zurai · 07/18/08, 5:49 PM

Originally Posted by Gokey

At level 80, you get 21 talent points to distribute. Each tier requires 3 talent points to advance to the next.

Enjoy!

First: Thanks for the tool!

Second: It's 16 points at 80, 21 if you take the BM 51-point talent. Or, at least, that's what the patch notes say.

Sean · 07/18/08, 5:52 PM

Originally Posted by Zurai

Not possible, unfortunately, or I'd already have done it. You can't reduce Frenzy under 4/5 without spending points in some useless talent lower in the tree.

I'm also not convinced that we'll need a full 2/2 Invigorate. At 2/2, we'll be spending very, very little mana and possibly actually be regaining mana. I think 1/2 will be enough, but of course there's no way for me to test that at the moment.

Considering that Steady Shot rank 3 takes 280 mana I think we'll be spending plenty of it.

Sean · 07/18/08, 5:54 PM

Nevermind, I suck at math. Yeah it's 16/21.

Lhivera · 07/18/08, 5:55 PM

Originally Posted by Sean

Each family belongs to only one tree. Cats/Raptors for example go to the Ferocity tree, Wind Serpents the Cunning tree, and Boars the Tenacity tree.

Anyone figured out the full list of pet families for each tree?

Doodicus · 07/18/08, 5:55 PM

Originally Posted by Gokey

I went ahead and made a Hunter Pet Talent tree for WoTLK Beta. It should be 100% accurate except for the location on some of the tiers. I'm not actually in the beta so I just plopped them in there. Thanks to Sean for the information.

Obviously, it's not entirely usable because the trees were built for hunters, but I'm sure some of you will find it useful.

War Tools :: Talent tree WoTLK Pet Talents

If you haven't read above; all pets only get one tree (it's based off their class type). At level 80, you get 16 talent points to distribute. Each tier requires 3 talent points to advance to the next.

Enjoy!

edit: whoops! 16 talent points, not 21!

Awesome, but you got 2 Natural Armor nodes on the Tanking tree.

Gokey · 07/18/08, 5:55 PM

Originally Posted by Sean

Isn't it just 15 points? 61 levels / 5 = 15.25. So unless hitting 80 gives you a final one despite not being another 4 levels, it should only be 15, right?

Well, I don't think it would make sense to be only 15 points, as you wouldn't have access to the final 1 point talents. I'm guessing pets probably start with 1 talent point.

Kajsa · 07/18/08, 5:56 PM

It seems to that a lot of the changes they are instituting for pets will include much more micro-management (staggering cool downs, using the buff skills at the most beneficial times, managing focus since so many new skills have high costs) and require attention given to more than just which shot is next.

This is entirely welcome for me since one of my first thoughts after hearing about unlinked steadies was how boring raiding would be. The new facets of pet use and (hopefully!) awesome new things to play with in "exotic pets" via the 51 BM talent should keep things interesting.

Oh, and am I the only one that thinks focused fire should by the very flavor of the talent increase the pet's damage by 2% as well?

Sean · 07/18/08, 5:56 PM

Originally Posted by Gokey

Well, I don't think it would make sense to be only 15 points, as you wouldn't have access to the final 1 point talents. I'm guessing pets probably start with 1 talent point.

You only need 13 points to reach the final tree, not 15 or 16. It's 3 per tier. And yeah, I suck at math, it should be 16/21 talented.

They get 1 point at 20 and then 1 point every 4 levels afterwards.

Gokey · 07/18/08, 5:58 PM

Awesome, but you got 2 Natural Armor nodes on the Tanking tree.

Fixed!

You only need 13 points to reach the final tree, not 15 or 16. It's 3 per tier. And yeah, I suck at math, it should be 16/21 talented.

They get 1 point at 20 and then 1 point every 4 levels afterwards.

I guess I'm as confused as you are then. :P

Sean · 07/18/08, 6:00 PM

Originally Posted by Gokey

Fixed!

edit: damnit, didn't mean to make an extra post for this

You need to fix your trees so it only takes 3 to advance to the next Tier of points.

Zurai · 07/18/08, 6:02 PM

Originally Posted by Sean

Considering that Steady Shot rank 3 takes 280 mana I think we'll be spending plenty of it.

Hmm. Maybe. Depends what the uptime of Cobra Strikes is. If it's 100% or nearly so, our time til OOM will be enormous using just steady shot (I calculated ~7.5 minutes with a 12k mana pool). If it's 50%, we'll run OOM pretty fast, though still much slower than current max mana usage.