For the 10% +healing for Hunter and pet. And then the regeneration is just icing that makes it a non-wasted talent if there are no heals incoming.
But I won't do without Imp Mend Pet. Now where to get those two points? Hmm... how about Animal Handler. Our pets are going to run with our hitrating anyway (which should be maxed, or close to), so the effect of that talent is merely 10 secs off Master's Call. Seems obvious to me.
Aaah that makes sense, thanks for the answer. I saw imp mend pet missing and went searching for where the 2 points had gone, and found spirit bond first. I can see where it could be quite useful, i obviously didn't think it quite through all the way...
So far I've seen a lot of BM builds skip Separation Anxiety for Improved Tracking. Whether this makes sense seems to depend on how easy/advisable it is to stay 20 yards away from your pet. If a pet does 33% of a hunter's damage (not entirely unreasonable to suggest), then Sep. Anxiety is just as much dps as Imp. Tracking, only without the hassle of switching tracking modes. Plus, it will work on untrackable targets. If a BM hunter's pet accounts for more than 33% dps, then Sep. Anxiety actually is better.
Naturally there are a lot of variables in that but it will be interesting to research.
I was wondering about this too. SA even gets the bonus of a movement buff if you happen to be closer than 20 yards (a distance that is pretty easy to manage in PvE). The 10% added speed can be helpful in all kinds of situations, PvP just being the most obvious.
Depends on how Exotic pets end up being by the end of beta. So far they all seem to be a step up from normal pets. Not a large step (Chimeras' bugged special being an exception), but enough. They also get the extra 5 pet skill points, which can be a boon depending on which tree your pet is. I don't know if that's worth losing for 4% attack power.
Why wouldn't that be 22% total?
5 ranged wep spec
5 imp tracking
10 marked for death
2 focused fire
It seems extremely powerful to have all those options available in one spec, I'd be surprised to see the talent trees remain like this after blizz sees what they've done.
Holy moly! And other swears that aren't... I didn't notice the Marked for Death talents were 2% at a time, well I did, but counted them as 5% (5x2=5 obviously in my mind ).
That can't go, not with the improved AP scaling on top. To an extent it makes me a little relieved.
noth, I wouldn't drop BM the talent. I would first drop one point in GftT. I think with the lowered prices in general (not much, but they are slightly), and with BD going, 25 focus per crit should be enough to keep focus flowing. The only reason I have 2/2 now is because of my WS, and I don't know where else that point could be used.
Now that we have 2% AP, we are scaling slightly. We want that second point. However, that point can only come from other scaling talents or GftT. So it would have to be based on a lot of testing to see if that last point could be removed without gimping our pets. At this time I don't think it will be worth the change to no GftT. But at least we got something we can use.
Trevv, Abomination's Might... Need I say more? Until it is raised to 30 yards, or even 25, I can't see us taking Seperation Anxiety over Imp Tracking. One is good with no DK, one is good regardless. The interesting thing is that MM is the only spec that doesn't have a range modified talent, hence no need to stay at range outside Abom's Might (which they scale better with anyway).
I don't see Abomination's Might staying 20 yards, but that's probably just me being hopeful.
Of course, you could always try to position yourself just right so that both are active. As long as the DK isn't directly on top of the pet, there's always going to be some spot to stand that will give you both buffs. Probably more trouble than it's worth, but it's silly that AM is 20 yards in the first place.
One thing that's becoming clear is that the UI guys at Blizzard are going to have to start giving addon developers ways for players to calculate exactly how far away players are from things. As I understand it now, we don't have the tools to know whether, for example, we are standing exactly 24 yards away from our pets.
Last edited by TrevvyTrev : 08/14/08 at 10:08 PM.
Reason: Kaejin beat me to it/grammar
I never got why they took out the ability to do so in the first place. At most it was just a convenience when they changed it. The way things are now, where a lot of UI changes are made to help raiders, it just seems like a really silly change to have made.
The more I think about it, the more interested I am in what Trap Mastery is going to end up being. Being a one point talent, I would assume it'll be fairly powerful. I suppose that's good, but there are already a lot of tough choices to make in the survival tree now.
Last edited by Kaejin : 08/14/08 at 10:26 PM.
Reason: Added a comment
One thing that's becoming clear is that the UI guys at Blizzard are going to have to start giving addon developers ways for players to calculate exactly how far away players are from things. As I understand it now, we don't have the tools to know whether, for example, we are standing exactly 24 yards away from our pets.
Well, I think the mentality is "let's give Hunters an incentive to stand at max range." Sniper Training and Seperation Anxiety both pull in that direction. Hawk Eye and Kill Shot are similar. Problem is just that all our raidbuffs are in melee range, and they sort of overlap (as much as the buffer stands away from the target) just where the talents begin to give an effect. We don't want to stay at long range, even with good DPS talents like this.
I think someone here mentioned something like adding "Hunter is buffed to 10/20/30% longer ranges." But even such a talent wouldn't help with Abon's Might for Sniper Training (26 yards... missing 4). We need 60-100% longer buffranges (Abom to 30 would make it awfully tight). That would do it, and that isn't likely to happen ever. Besides, now that two trees have this problem, where would we put it? Improved Tracking so all can and will get it? Too good a talent for T1 then (plus tracking hasn't got much to do with buffs). Imp Aspect of the Hawk? Makes more sense in regards to buffs, but not all Surv builds will even want it, so it would kill variety.
No, I think something else has to be done. Though a trained ability like the pally manareturn from healing gotten, would be nice. We are after all scouts and trackers, we would be better at picking up shouts and buffs and so on from longer distances, we are attuned/trained to such.
Here's hoping.
Made a Surv build.
Found that Improved Aspect of the Hawk when procced on a 4/5 version will bring a Surv Steady down to 1.55, which is close enough for us to barely notice the difference. In any case it is hardly relevant in raids where the Surv will get at least 16% haste from WF (part of the reasoning behind killing Sniper Training). So I didn't feel like I was killing DPS by assigning one point to GftT. 25 focus per crit from a non BM build, I don't know if that will be enough tbh, but a crit per 2 seconds overall, I think that is possible for Survs, leading to a slightly focusstarved environment. But that means it just adds to it's full extent.
With TNT I found Lock and Load powerful, so by extention it was logical to get Noxious Stings (since Serpent is up for Lock and Load anyway).
Survivalist and Hunter vs Wild are just fillers, but really good fillers. In any case, where else put the points?
Last edited by KraxisSingular : 08/14/08 at 10:52 PM.
Reason: Added Surv build
Well, I think the mentality is "let's give Hunters an incentive to stand at max range." Sniper Training and Seperation Anxiety both pull in that direction. Hawk Eye and Kill Shot are similar. Problem is just that all our raidbuffs are in melee range, and they sort of overlap (as much as the buffer stands away from the target) just where the talents begin to give an effect. We don't want to stay at long range, even with good DPS talents like this.
Sniper shot maybe pulls in that direction, but Sep. Anxiety doesn't so much. You can be 10 yards away from your target and 40 yards away from your pet (it could be on a different target, for example). And 20 yards isn't much of a "max range" incentive, given how much cushion there is with even untalented range. If they are going to have new mechanics that depend on range, then the UI has to let players know, somehow. If we don't have to guess whether people are in range for heals or targets are in range to be damaged, then we shouldn't have to guess whether our talents are kicking in.
Another solution besides giving exact numbers would be for these talents to apply a buff when they are active. when your pet goes more than 20 yds away, you get the "Separated!" buff, which disappears when it gets closer. SV hunters would get a "Sniping" buff when appropriate, etc. There just has to be some feedback so players know what the heck is going on with their abilities is all.
I was hoping someone would come out with a mod that displays a permanent ring on the ground around me that could visually display a 20/40 yard range. Someone needs to get on this!
Is explosive shot going to be worth more then the final point in mortal shot?
Originally Posted by missiletoad
I get enjoyment out of constructing buildings out of my fries and demolishing them with my chicken nugget army as I make monster noises. But you people. You people are FREAKS.
The problem with survival now is getting explosive shot. When it comes to that I see two options: invest heavily in marks and get imp stings, or divide up your extra 20 points in BM/MM.
I felt sniper training was worth 2 points for the +crit on kill shot alone and if it becomes situationally useful then that's an added boon. Depending on the changes to serpant sting it could very well become bread and butter, so it seemed silly to pass up noxious stings - especially when I was having trouble finding useful investments for points.
Not sure if 1/5 mortal shots is better then aspect mastery or not, but I went ahead with it. Endurance training goes well with hunter v wild. I'm not sure which build would be more dps, but my gut feeling is to go with quickshots.
Is explosive shot going to be worth more then the final point in mortal shot?
I certainly think so. Explosive shot is suppose to be a viable replacement for arcane shot and part of the standard rotation. I think the question is more along the lines of aspect mastery vs 1/5 mortal shots.
Originally Posted by Relwin
If you need a shot macro to hold your hand then you are probably on the wrong forums.
Is explosive shot going to be worth more then the final point in mortal shot?
Debatable, but I think it will be. But that isn't the question you should be asking. You should ask: "Is Aspect Mastery and 2% damage worth the loss of Careful Aim and the last point of Mortal Shots?" And the answer is no.
Trevv, not many fights have our pets very far away while we are close to a boss. I can only imagine Lurker and A'lar at this time. Those 20 yards could just as well be 100 yards... And of course the LoS capacity of it means PvP. So the idea of siccing the pet on a healer and let him run away wouldn't be a bad thing. The simple fact is they want us to maintain some distance to get a DPS bonus. Had it been 15 yards we would be able to use totems and other melee buffs to find the range easily enough. But that is extremely short range, our pets would be outside that in all but raid fights more or less. Basically no penalty to it then.
Last edited by KraxisSingular : 08/14/08 at 11:18 PM.
What would be wrong with a 5/15/51 spec? (alternatively swap to 1/2 GftT and go 3/3 Sniper Training)
You trade off 2% damage and 150 AP for Careful Aim (yields higher than Aspect Mastery), 6% crit bonus and 2/2 GftT.
Not to mention you have 15% extra crit on Explosive and as you should be using stings so Lock and Load has uses (open to debate ofcourse).
The only thing you can really cut for Imp Stings is points from IAoTH though which is... dependent on how amazing Serpent Sting ends up.
The problem with survival now is getting explosive shot. When it comes to that I see two options: invest heavily in marks and get imp stings, or divide up your extra 20 points in BM/MM.
I felt sniper training was worth 2 points for the +crit on kill shot alone and if it becomes situationally useful then that's an added boon. Depending on the changes to serpant sting it could very well become bread and butter, so it seemed silly to pass up noxious stings - especially when I was having trouble finding useful investments for points.
Not sure if 1/5 mortal shots is better then aspect mastery or not, but I went ahead with it. Endurance training goes well with hunter v wild. I'm not sure which build would be more dps, but my gut feeling is to go with quickshots.
I certainly think so. Explosive shot is suppose to be a viable replacement for arcane shot and part of the standard rotation. I think the question is more along the lines of aspect mastery vs 1/5 mortal shots.
Why go for Hawk Eye when you don't need the range? Imp Sting Surv spec
You can take two points from MT to ST if you really want the crit to Kill Shot (do we even know if it works at shorter ranges? Could go both ways).
Last edited by KraxisSingular : 08/14/08 at 11:21 PM.
I certainly think so. Explosive shot is suppose to be a viable replacement for arcane shot and part of the standard rotation. I think the question is more along the lines of aspect mastery vs 1/5 mortal shots.
So it's 6% crit damage vs. 150 AP, right? I'll let someone else have the pleasure of doing the math, but 150 AP seems like it would win out, considering it helps our pets and all our other abilities that don't crit (traps, serpent sting).
I'm more concerned with making a decent PvP Survival build that would still be useful for raiding if I ever felt like a change of pace from BM. The new Survival changes won me over pretty quick, but I just can't bear to give up my powerful pets for solo PVE and instanced misadventures.
This is what I have so far. There are a lot of hard choices to make in Survival if you're not purely concerned with PvE.
There are a lot of hard choices to make in Survival if you're not purely concerned with PvE.
Hopefully, the 'dual talent' feature will take the edge off this, but there still seems to be some talent-bloat in the SV tree. The prevalence of talents with clear and orthogonal PvE and PvP functionality (e.g. Survival Tactics) is Blizzard's way of reducing talent bloat, and encouraging clearer 'talent paths' down the tree, but there's an overabundance of 2 and 3-point double-barrelled talents in the first half that makes me suspect we'll be getting another revision soon.
Edit: For that matter, early MM is getting a bit clogged up. MS should revert to a 3-point talent, IMO.
Trevv, not many fights have our pets very far away while we are close to a boss. I can only imagine Lurker and A'lar at this time. Those 20 yards could just as well be 100 yards... And of course the LoS capacity of it means PvP. So the idea of siccing the pet on a healer and let him run away wouldn't be a bad thing. The simple fact is they want us to maintain some distance to get a DPS bonus. Had it been 15 yards we would be able to use totems and other melee buffs to find the range easily enough. But that is extremely short range, our pets would be outside that in all but raid fights more or less. Basically no penalty to it then.
I'm not actually questioning the logic behind the ability at all. I'm only saying that I hope that the UI provides feedback of some kind so that I know that the ability is active. Right now, I have no way of knowing that I am 20 yards away from my pet. If I can't figure that out, either through some API event firing that I can retrieve via an addon, or something more basic like a buff that says, "hey, your pet is separated!", then the talent becomes too hard to use, and not worth the trouble. Imagine if you had no way of knowing whether you were in range of a totem buff, unless you parsed your combat log to see whether it was increasing your damage, for example.
[...]Endurance training goes well with hunter v wild.[...]
I made the mistake of looking at this too, but on closer look, ET is +% health, and HvW is based on Stam, so I doubt there's the perceived synergy. We could only be so lucky.
You know, now that I think about it some more, Rapid Recouperation is going to be THE leveling talent in respects to mana regen. Consider the following:
with rapid killing up, as BM, and in T6 I see;
Arcane shot hitting for ~830 and critting for ~1.7k
Aimed Shot hitting for ~1.3k and critting for ~3.9k
thats a damage spread of 2.1k to 5.6k damage before Rapid Killing drops. with a full 3 points in RR your looking at regenerating roughly 3k to 8.4k mana over 6 seconds. I don't know about you but double crits would just about completely refill a mana bar and lets not forget that both shots will only get better as you level up not to mention hit harder as MM compared to BM.
I suspect that RR might get a reducton on the mana back % in a future build.
Minor thought, but can't you also just run up and do an Aspect of the Beast Raptor Strike/Mongoose Bite combo for an easy extra 5k+ mana as well? Melee attacks don't consume Rapid Killing, and Rapid Repercussions make no mention of "ranged" attacks.
Actually, god, the thought of the usefulness of this on aoe pack fights like Illhoof, with an explosive trap and a no-cooldown, scaling Volley? Situational, yeah, but 5k mana per second returns would be hilarious.
Does MT gain more usefulness with the synergy it provides with Hunting Party?
I somewhat ignored it out of habit but with the limiting factor on specials and no internal cooldown, near all means of increasing crit become more beneficial for those abilities in order to boost HP no?
with the nerf of kill command and the buffs of the other trees, and exotic pets, being kinda lackluster
I think the BM tree will be left biting the dust as it seems now, since the awesome damage improves the MM and Survival trees are getting + the utility and synergy they are getting, and BM gets new pets, almost the same as the others, and a few damage nerfs, maybe a slight buff overall, but not that much to have something special against the other trees;
So BM will be the same as pre BC, where no one on their right mind would spec in it
I made the mistake of looking at this too, but on closer look, ET is +% health, and HvW is based on Stam, so I doubt there's the perceived synergy. We could only be so lucky.
Fortunately though, STA is cheap as far as itemization goes, and the returns for the the pet are even nicer since it gets to double dip. It gets a flat bonus from the talent, but because your RAP goes up too, it gets even more.
I'm still a bit unimpressed with Separation Anxiety as a PvE talent--it's situationally +10% pet damage, and Unleashed Fury adds double that unconditionally higher in the tree. Of course, more is better, but I still don't feel guilty skipping it for the other juicy talents in BM. It's still not too hard to get BM51 without dipping at all into separation anxiety.
I gotta say though that Survival continues to look more and more attractive.
If you aren't a goblin, why not?
If you are a goblin you rule
I'm still a bit unimpressed with Separation Anxiety as a PvE talent--it's situationally +10% pet damage, and Unleashed Fury adds double that unconditionally higher in the tree. Of course, more is better, but I still don't feel guilty skipping it for the other juicy talents in BM. It's still not too hard to get BM51 without dipping at all into separation anxiety.
I gotta say though that Survival continues to look more and more attractive.
I get enjoyment out of constructing buildings out of my fries and demolishing them with my chicken nugget army as I make monster noises. But you people. You people are FREAKS.
08/14/08, 9:32 PM
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