I'm curious what you guys now think of Combat Experience. With Careful Aim being basically a must have talent, does this make CE less dumpy? You'd increase the value of intellect => AP to 106% as well as the value of agility => AP to 102%. That's also before you take into account talents like Master Marksman and Survival Instinct which are both easily accessible to a raiding MM build.
I think it is about time I ended this discussion. Essentially we are in agreement. I think it is only fair we get an indicator to see when what is active and when it isn't (by this I mean it dropping off). Otherwise it would be nearly impossible to overlap these abilties with certain buffs etc on bossfights where (in the case of SA) the pet is on the boss.
I just argued that you shouldn't expect it, based on the current changes (this might change soon enough, one can hope).
With that I hope we are finished now. At least with this.
Originally Posted by Kedour
It seems that a Survival Hunter, Beast Mastery Hunters (with pet specceds something like this: Pet Calculator - Wowhead), a shaman and a feral druid in a group will still be incredible DPS. With Call of the Wild (any beta hunters want to test if this will stack, and if so how many?) I think it'd be incredible to have Bloodlust/Heroism go up with 2 of these. Otherwise use them in succession for the full 40 seconds.
And I ask, why couldn't an MM pet be specced like this? BM utility mentioned goes out the window as MM has access to that too. He just needs to not take Rabid, which will be nice for MM but Call of the Wild obviously beats it by a mile or two. No need for BM there. And outside the ArP ability of the Worm (which we don't know if it stacks with Sunder or other ArP abilities) there aren't any Exotics that can provide anything special in raids, outside the awesome DPS of the Devilsaur (neither it's 15% +damage nor the insane scalability of the Chimera can be expected to last).
Regarding the loss of Bear Trap: I don't know. I like the fact that Freezing now might stand up to a TC in 5-mans, that could save many a Hunter deaths from foolish tanks (or their own stupidity, which might not be so great again). But I heard part of the interest in Bear Trap was that it wasn't CLoSable so a Rogue who used his trinket to get out would still not be able to get away completely (if that is what he wants of course). Anyway, that is not my area of interest tbh.
Absolutely love both Camo and Distracting Shot. If DS works with MD then it would be absolutely ace. MD to the rescue. But even without it, it is still great. Long range from target, MD on CD, squishy in danger? DS -> Conc ftw. Trapping... Well 6 seconds might not be enough for certain trappings, but then it could be saved for the situation where the mob changes direction just as it get's closer. Easier this way than topping another player's threat. The application of DS seems to be very open to different ideas. Could go on to become one of our most fun abilities.
Camo obviously helps us a lot. Needs little said there. Though I like the idea of trapping ahead and in front of pulls. That could be fun. Or even, if possible, sneaking up behind the mobs and trapping them where they stand.
outside the ArP ability of the Worm (which we don't know if it stacks with Sunder or other ArP abilities)
I can't believe no one has tested that yet and posted their findings. It seems like it should be near the top of any raiding BM hunter's list of things to find out.
Originally Posted by KraxisSingular
Camo obviously helps us a lot. Needs little said there. Though I like the idea of trapping ahead and in front of pulls. That could be fun. Or even, if possible, sneaking up behind the mobs and trapping them where they stand.
It certainly does open up a lot of CC setups that we didn't have before. Maybe we can finally CC caster mobs without having to rely on LoS. That's bothered me for a long time.
Well, you COULD get Rabid on that build, Kraxis, but how it compares to the final point in Spiked Collar, I don't know. (wtb [Beta Key, pst)
Everyone's focusing on Chimera keeping Serpent up, and while that would be possibly a decent source of MM damage, until I see the promised improvements to it, I'm inclined to think MM would put up Scorpid on the pull, and be able to maintain it the entire fight. While this wouldn't be directly increasing damage like Serpent, indirectly it would do so, as no hunter would be wasting a GCD every 20 seconds on Scorpid. Further, BM and SV would be able to use Serpent while the tank takes less damage.
Well, you COULD get Rabid on that build, Kraxis, but how it compares to the final point in Spiked Collar, I don't know. (wtb [Beta Key, pst)
Everyone's focusing on Chimera keeping Serpent up, and while that would be possibly a decent source of MM damage, until I see the promised improvements to it, I'm inclined to think MM would put up Scorpid on the pull, and be able to maintain it the entire fight. While this wouldn't be directly increasing damage like Serpent, indirectly it would do so, as no hunter would be wasting a GCD every 20 seconds on Scorpid. Further, BM and SV would be able to use Serpent while the tank takes less damage.
True on the build. Forgot the tree has one less tier than needed for 15 points to the last tier. Rabid should beat 3% damage with a short CD like that. But technically you could also drom Heart of the Phoenix and just pray it won't die.
I'm surprised that you are more or less the only one to mention this. That would free up 3 points in MM to put elsewhere (Improved Hunter's Mark perhaps?). But of course it depends on the damage that Chimera and Serpent does. One GCD every 20 seconds is actually a rather considerable strain on the other specs. Once every 13 GCDs it would be required, that's 7.7% of the casttime required for this.
Kaejin, I'm just as surprised as you. No key means no testing from me. Perhaps a tester would be so kind as to recruit a Warrior for such a test? Perhaps also a Druid, wouldn't be fun if FF precluded it.
It is a dps sacrifice for MM to do "Scorpid bitch" duty, but it could be a form of raid utility to do so. Scorpid up the entire fight is something we already do to ease the tank healing job, and you're right, we could also have Imp Mark with that for a bit more utility. That would free up BM and SV to use Serpent (more important for SV) and free up Imp Mark points for use elsewhere.
Maybe that's not as impressive as EW and HP for utility, but...
It makes the most sense to do it that way, since Survival gets more benefit from the constant spplication of Serpent Sting. It's not exactly the strongest arguement in the world since Noxious Venom only effects the hunter with the talent instead of the entier raid, but there's also Lock and Load's synergy with Hunting Party to consider. Serpent has a 15 sec cd, and Scorpid has a 20 sec cd. A survival hunter would need to apply serpent more often than scorpid, resulting in more L&L procs, meaning more chances at mana regen from HP. Meanwhile the MM hunter disarms the boss (if it's a boss than can be disarmed) 10 seconds every minute, adding to mitigation for the tank even more.
That's the theory, anyway. Whether the extra DPS gained from the Marks hunter doing Chimera on Serpent would be worth the loss of the extra mitigation from Scorpid's disarm and extra mana regen from L&L induced crits would need some spreadsheet work, and that's not really my bag.
People keep talking about int -> AP, but what about suggesting Blizzard make it an int -> Agi conversion? not on a 1-1 basis, obviously, that'd be a bit overpowered, but what about a 9:1/6:1/3:1 conversion? or would that be way too over powered?
I think I'm missing something here. Chimaera shot refreshes scorpid sting in addition to disarming the boss? I thought the old version disarmed the boss, and the new version just refreshed the duration.
My testing on Jormungar worms with Beast Lore and a warrior helper confirms that Acid Spit and Sunder Armor DO stack.
I can't imagine that it will ship as-is. A pet increasing rDPS by THAT much is just not fair. Plus I cringe at the thought of raiding with a Tenacity pet, assuming the 2nd Hunter in the raid will be Surv.
Umm...there is a third option for the chimera-shooting marksman. Serpent = damage. Scorpid = utility. However, Viper = longevity. It's painful to use two global cooldowns every 15 seconds just to regain some mana, but 60% of the max rank viper with some talents to help out is a net gain to mana that isn't anything to sneeze at. With all the mana woes we've been suggesting marks has, (Rapid Recuperation is negligible unless Rapid Killing will trigger from some mid-fight adds or something,) this would be a great way to maintain mana early in a fight until you decide it isn't needed, and then switch over to serpent.
Originally Posted by serf
People keep talking about int -> AP, but what about suggesting Blizzard make it an int -> Agi conversion? not on a 1-1 basis, obviously, that'd be a bit overpowered, but what about a 9:1/6:1/3:1 conversion? or would that be way too over powered?
Well, Blizzard is willing to do int = 1 AP. If we were to do agi instead, we'd be looking at a MAX of maybe 40% to be comparable in the damage department. Considering agi scales better, and (if you were talking about replacing Careful Aim with agi effect and making int->AP inherent like I think someone else was,) it would be accessible to Surv hunters. I think 10%/20%/30% would be the best you could reasonably hope for. Still, it is interesting. You could call a talent like that "Ruthless Cunning" or something.
ES and Arcane share CD, so you will only use one (ES should be your choice, as long as you have specced it) of them either way.
I think it's safe to assume that the ES DoT can't be applied multiple times by the same hunter... if LNL procs, the response should be ES, AS, ES... putting two cooldowns between consecutive Explosive Shots.
Given that Auto Shots don't clip, and therefore that our rotations won't have random 0.5-second delays inserted into them, isn't Imp.Arcane Shot a complete an utter waste of space, given that, with a 5-second cooldown, it's still 4 GCDs between casts? If it dropped the cooldown to 4.5 seconds it'd be useful (or if Blizzard got really interesting and made Imp.Arcane drop Arcane, Chim and Explosive's GCD down to 1 second... hmmm).
Kind of on a side note, but still a good question: have they announced any new scopes yet? Are there going to be the basic +crit rating and +damage? Or are they maybe adding some different things? Maybe a proc of some kind.
Make that ES, AS, ES, AS. The description says the next three shots "trigger no cooldown". So after the 3rd shot, you still dont have a cooldown, allowing for a 4th right after it.
However, depending on how the initial damage is on both shots, and tick amounts, etc, I could see 4 ES most likely coming on top anyway.
People keep talking about int -> AP, but what about suggesting Blizzard make it an int -> Agi conversion? not on a 1-1 basis, obviously, that'd be a bit overpowered, but what about a 9:1/6:1/3:1 conversion? or would that be way too over powered?
I don't recall any precedent for stat->stat conversions. If they wanted to make INT more valuable, simply boosting the return from Careful Aim would be about as far as I'd expect them to go...
Since Camo seems like it's a go right now, at least in some form, it makes me wonder about (if) and how being stealthed will affect our pets. Currently it's a dead giveaway in arena where the shadowmelded NE hunter is if "fluffy" the scorpid is standing right next to him and the same problem could plague Camo.
It isn't a huge deal since we are offered cats with prowl as a pet choice, but the fact that only one pet has that option makes cats the only choice for a hunter who wants to be stealthed and have a pet out.
It makes me curious about how Camo will work in regard to our pets. Will they disappear when we Camo and repop when we come out (similar to the way our mounts work now)? Will the pet stealth also (though it wouldn't have the damage bonus for breaking it like cats do)? If they did stealth, would them being spotted break our stealth? Us being spotted break theirs? Would an attack from a stealthed pet break a hunter out of stealth?
I'm curious. Alas, I'm not in the beta to ask these questions on the forums, so instead I'm hoping some of you will pass them on. Maybe it'd be better to wait for a push that included Camo, though.
The difference between shadowmelded NE and a camo hunter will be that we have the option to move. All you have to do is tell your pet to stay somewhere and then go about as you like.
Also, thank you for testing Acid Spit out with Sunder Armor, Steelfleece. Now I just really want to know if they plan on keeping some worms Feroicty or not (last I heard some of the Jormungar were, anyway). I would suspect it's a bug, but here's to hoping.
The difference between shadowmelded NE and a camo hunter will be that we have the option to move. All you have to do is tell your pet to stay somewhere and then go about as you like.
I considered this, but leaving my pet all alone far away from me where it can more easily get focus-fired seems like something I wouldn't want to do.
Kind of on a side note, but still a good question: have they announced any new scopes yet? Are there going to be the basic +crit rating and +damage? Or are they maybe adding some different things? Maybe a proc of some kind.
There's a datamined +40 Crit Rating scope, as well as a +40 Hit Rating scope which, IIRC, is the first Hit Rating scope ever since the Molten Core schematic.
Kind of on a side note, but still a good question: have they announced any new scopes yet? Are there going to be the basic +crit rating and +damage? Or are they maybe adding some different things? Maybe a proc of some kind.
I considered this, but leaving my pet all alone far away from me where it can more easily get focus-fired seems like something I wouldn't want to do.
I definitely understand the way you feel. I guess you could dismiss it before using camo. That would probably work fine for Arenas before the gates open, but otherwise it would just be annoying because of dismiss's cast time.
Having the pets stealth seems to me like it would just completely undermind the cat family ability, even if they get a damage boost coming out of stealth. It just wouldn't seem as interesting anymore. However, if pets would stealth with us when we camo, I'm all for completely removing cat stealth and giving them a better ability...
Having the pet instantly dismiss when we camo just feels hokey to me, but that didn't really stop them from doing it with mounts. Seems the most likely to me, actually, if they do anything at all.
08/15/08, 8:02 PM
At least with this.
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