WotLK Talents & Abilities Discussion - Page 75

Shandara · 08/22/08, 5:21 AM

Well, one of the big complaints in PvP (especially arena) was that we didn't have a finisher with sufficient oomph. Kill Shot is obviously intended to be that finisher (long range, high damage vs low% targets, extra crit chance with Sniper Training).

Whether it'll fulfill it's promise remains to be seen, though.

• Intermission · 08/22/08, 5:55 AM

Originally Posted by PSGarak

There are two problems, Trogdor. The first problem is with your post: Why would you spend all the effort running those calculations and intentionally introduce a 5% error in one of the numbers? Math is only as accurate as the least accurate number, you can't leave part of your work as napkin math. What you got is a bunch of extra work for some extra digits at the end that you have to round off anyways, giving the same result that napkin math would have.

The second problem has nothing to do with your post. It's got to do with your understanding of probability. Sample length doesn't matter for a god damn for determining the average. Sample length determines the variance of your estimation, and the standard deviation of your measurements, which quantify the likelyhood of being close to your mean. But 20/3 has much more predictive significance than 7, despite the fact that 7 is an obtainable value and 20/3 is not. The reason is, it accounts for all possibilities and their relative likelyhoods. It combines all possible fights of that duration (or, by extension, any duration). 7 only accounts for the most likely possibility. Not a bad estimator, but definitely an inferior one because it accounts for strictly less information. Furthermore, 7 is only the most likely in a fight of the duration you chose, whereas 20/3 is extensible to any fight of any length.

Why is 20/3 so much better than 7? Because you don't know beforehand which way the dice are going to fall. And 20/3 takes that into account by considering all possibilities. 7 ignores most scenarios and assumes that the fight will progress a certain way. Yes, you "don't get a fraction's value of a proc; it either does or it doesn't," but you don't know beforehand which one you're going to get, so a weighted average has better predictive power than either number. (Besides, it's not like you're going to be in a single fight with this talent spec.)

So what it boils down to is this: while you didn't make that big a mistake calculationally, you've proven by your justification of that mistake that you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. The number that you got isn't far from something significant, but the number that you got has no significance whatsoever and you don't understand why. We're trying to explain the theoretic background behind averages, and your response is that it was close enough, so what difference does it make? You don't even understand what it is we're talking to you about, because you keep going back to the inciting calculations instead of your misguided justifications of them.

Thank you so very much for posting that, Garak. It's what I had been trying to explain for over 5 posts, but I just couldn't express it as cleanly as that. I'm guessing you noticed and summed it up for us. I ended up putting that guy on ignore, but I'm hoping he reads your post and it finally clicks.

Although I admit it would be pretty funny if he came back with another "well then, show us your calculations and lets see how different they are!"

edit:
Regarding double dipping Chimera breath, takel, I think that's actually a pretty cool way of making some abilities scale more than others while in a raid situation. I know, it sounds stupid to say that, and its obviously not intended, but hear me out.

Reason why it can be useful: a class is dominant in pvp but needs a pve damage output boost. There might be others.
How it works: just have +element effects count for the whole spell, not the associated half. Right now it's reeally broken, in that it gets double from standard % modifiers, but if it was just limited to elemental buffs (CoE, Scorch, that druid thing? etc) then I think it could work out. Though Chimera breath would not be a spell you want to work like that... but if a class like mages were doing way too much damage in PvP and not enough in PvE, double dipping raid buffs with FfB would be a nice way to balance them.

Because stuff like Vindication, Patch 2.2(?) stacking Hunters Mark, Winter's Chill, and similar "it gets better over time, but not burst" techniques seem a bit boring to me.

Steelfleece · 08/22/08, 7:01 AM

Well, currently on test it seems that Froststorm Breath has been hit with the nerf stick rather hard. Hitting for around ~120 for me.

Kaejin · 08/22/08, 7:41 AM

What are the specifics on Sting, the new Wasp ability? All I've seen are the tooltips.

Sting (Rank 5)
25 Focus, 6 sec CD
Your Wasp stings for 57 - 63 Nature damage, and decreases the armor of the target by 610 for 20 seconds. While effected, the target can not stealth or turn invisibe.

What I don't know, that I'm mainly concerned with, is if the armor reduction stacks. Debuff type would also be good to know (poison?). Damage seems a little low, but it also has the Faerie Fire effects, so I guess it's fine.

Either way, this seems like an great pet for raiding and PvP. If the armor reduction doesn't stack, it's still good even if not so much as Acid Spit. If it doesn't stack then the only thing that bothers me is the low damage, considering it's going to be spammed by the pet.

Prinsesa · 08/22/08, 7:53 AM

Originally Posted by Kaejin

What are the specifics on Sting, the new Wasp ability? All I've seen are the tooltips.

What I don't know, that I'm mainly concerned with, is if the armor reduction stacks. Debuff type would also be good to know (poison?). Damage seems a little low, but it also has the Faerie Fire effects, so I guess it's fine.

Either way, this seems like an great pet for raiding and PvP. If the armor reduction doesn't stack, it's still good even if not so much as Acid Spit. If it doesn't stack then the only thing that bothers me is the low damage, considering it's going to be spammed by the pet.

Besides the damage, the armor reduction (610 @ 70, 1260 @ 80) and effect matches the corresponding ranks of Faerie Fire exactly.

This leads me to believe that this Sting may be another one of those "shared debuffs", this time for Druids, although a Balance Druid still has an edge with his Improved talent for +hit.

Roywyn · 08/22/08, 7:56 AM

Originally Posted by Steelfleece

Well, currently on test it seems that Froststorm Breath has been hit with the nerf stick rather hard. Hitting for around ~120 for me.

Frostfire Bolt is said to have been fixed, no more double scaling from CoE/Scorch/WC.
So that likely fixed the double scaling you've been experiencing.

But double scaling didn't fully explain 35k crits, so ... maybe they massively tweaked Attack/Spell Power scaling as well perhaps?

Shandara · 08/22/08, 8:01 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

Besides the damage, the armor reduction (610 @ 70, 1260 @ 80) and effect matches the corresponding ranks of Faerie Fire exactly.

This leads me to believe that this Sting may be another one of those "shared debuffs", this time for Druids, although a Balance Druid still has an edge with his Improved talent for +hit.

It must be, otherwise it would be a comparatively massive boost to both your pet and your own dps.

KraxisSingular · 08/22/08, 8:17 AM

Oh, Improved Tracking is implemented now.

I guess it is time to find out of it applies the damage bonus to pets too (the wording on it is not terribly clear).

Spiry · 08/22/08, 8:21 AM

Also check if it applies to targets that have no tracking group, but if you have HM on them, please.

Kaubel · 08/22/08, 8:22 AM

Originally Posted by PSGarak

There are two problems, Trogdor.

Yes there are. One, people keep arguing with him. And two, people keep arguing with him.

Enough is enough. We've established that Trog's math sucks, so why in the hell would anyone find it necessary to keep riding him about it? It's cluttering up the thread and it's dumb. So from now on, if he posts misinformation that's derived from his shitty math, report him and we'll give him an infraction. Otherwise, and this goes for pretty much everyone, shut up and find something else to discuss that doesn't have something to do with rounding numbers.

WarTotem · 08/22/08, 8:38 AM

I only noticed this just now, but check out the wording:

Glyph of Trueshot Aura - Increases the attack power bonus of Trueshot Aura by an additional 2%.

compare to e.g.:

Glyph of Hunter's Mark - Increases the attack power bonus of your Hunter's Mark by 20%

or

Glyph of Aspect of the Beast - Increases the attack power bonus of Aspect of the Beast for you and your pet by an additional 2%.

It would seem that the wording indicates an upcoming change to make TSA a %-based aura. I would guess 5-10% base, and then this Glyph added to it. (10% but no stacking with UR maybe?)

As for the BW Glyph goes, I would expect to see the 20 seconds being pre-talents, so effectively 14 seconds with Longevity.

PS: I guess Blizzard's way of 'making stings viable' is stuffing them with DPS boosts for OTHER skills.

Shandara · 08/22/08, 8:54 AM

Re my other post about Wasp's Sting skill.

These kind of skills probably don't stack with other abilities:
1) Sting with Faerie fire (same reduction)
2) Acid Spit with Sunder armor (same amount of stacks, same reduction)
3) Spore Cloud with ???

Can anyone test/verify this?

KraxisSingular · 08/22/08, 9:27 AM

Originally Posted by WarTotem

It would seem that the wording indicates an upcoming change to make TSA a %-based aura. I would guess 5-10% base, and then this Glyph added to it. (10% but no stacking with UR maybe?)

As for the BW Glyph goes, I would expect to see the 20 seconds being pre-talents, so effectively 14 seconds with Longevity.

PS: I guess Blizzard's way of 'making stings viable' is stuffing them with DPS boosts for OTHER skills.

No, TSA provides a set amount, if you then add "aditional 2%" then it kust means that TSA will get 2% of some AP factor. Doesn't haev to mean that it is going to be changed to a percentage based amount overall. Of course that can happen, I just don't think so. If the 2% is off the Hunter, then TSA will become rather powerful at top end raids. 4k AP is not unlikely at initial raids, and 5k seems rather possible a little later on. Those two values provide 80 and 100 AP for the raid. I don't know about you, but that is a lot. If it is of TSA itself then I wonder who the heck messed up at Blizzard... Oh and btw, UR is still only melee AP, so even if TSA scaled I doubt it would have an effect on it.

The BW glyph reduces the CD by a set amount, not a percentage. Hence it will stack fully with Longevity. It all depends on when the various reductions are done. If Longevity is done first, then the total will be 56 seconds. if the glyph is done first then it will only be 50 seconds. I have a feeling that talents come first in such situations.

Are glyphs implemented? If so a tester could test this out.

WarTotem · 08/22/08, 9:52 AM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

No, TSA provides a set amount, if you then add "additional 2%" then it just means that TSA will get 2% of some AP factor. Doesn't have to mean that it is going to be changed to a percentage based amount overall. Of course that can happen, I just don't think so. If the 2% is of the Hunter, then TSA will become rather powerful at top end raids. 4k AP is not unlikely at initial raids, and 5k seems rather possible a little later on. Those two values provide 80 and 100 AP for the raid. I don't know about you, but that is a lot. If it is of TSA itself then I wonder who the heck messed up at Blizzard... Oh and btw, UR is still only melee AP, so even if TSA scaled I doubt it would have an effect on it.

The difference is that 'additional' is usually added to tooltips that affect abilities with a certain % already. Aspect Mastery doesn't increase AotH bonus with an 'additional' 50%, it just boosts it with 50%. The AotB glyph gives an additional 2%, to clearly indicate it is +2%, not *102%. Even so, a 5% scaling TSA would give 200/250 AP with your assumed AP values, 280/350 with the Glyph. Not that bad imo.

I'll hold off on the buff stacking thing, we've been told that they're still under review, so we'll just have to see what stacks and what not.

The BW glyph reduces the CD by a set amount, not a percentage. Hence it will stack fully with Longevity. It all depends on when the various reductions are done. If Longevity is done first, then the total will be 56 seconds. if the glyph is done first then it will only be 50 seconds. I have a feeling that talents come first in such situations.

Are glyphs implemented? If so a tester could test this out.

Afaik, all fixed number changes come before %-based talent changes. An obvious example is this Shaman Totem and this talent, where the end cost is effectively (LB_cost - 27) * 90%. I assume this is done to prevent people trying to get mana costs to <0.

PS: Lots of typos there, shouldn't you be off to get some sleep? :p

TranquilRage · 08/22/08, 10:09 AM

A few questions for those in the Beta.

Under Lock and Load, do the Arc and Exp shots still trigger a GCD?

Does the Fire DoT of Exp shot stack from the same or from different hunters?

Aerynlore · 08/22/08, 10:59 AM

Concentration Aura changed = All party or raid members within 30 yards lose 35% less casting or channeling time when damaged.
Improved Shadowform (Tier 8 ) changed to - reduces casting or channeling time lost when damaged by 35% when casting any Shadow spell while in Shadowform. (Previously reduced chance to get interrupted by 35%)

So, this brings up two questions:
1) Are they going to change all "reduces chance to get interrupted" talents into "lose less casting time"?
2) If so, what does that do to Focused Aim and Improved Barrage?

I can see ImpBar staying the same, as it takes the anti-interrupt to a full 100%, but is Focused Aim slated for a "Lose 15/30/45% less casting time on steady shot when damaged"?

Killua · 08/22/08, 11:10 AM

General
Many talents which gave pushback resist changed to reduction in casting time lost.

as stated by World of Raids

What also startled me a bit is that the new pvp items for elemental shamans still have the "50% chance not to be interrupted while casting lightning bolt", although their talent Eye of the Storm gave them 70% on (chain)lightning and lava burst, last time I checked.

Can someone who already got the patch check what Focused Aim does now?

Prinsesa · 08/22/08, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by Shandara

Re my other post about Wasp's Sting skill.

These kind of skills probably don't stack with other abilities:
3) Spore Cloud with ???

Can anyone test/verify this?

Spore Cloud is odd. The level 70 version is 520 ArPen, which matches level 70 Sunder at 520 per stack, except Spore Cloud's tooltip doesn't indicate the ability to stack.

Meanwhile, the level 80 version is 700 ArPen, while level 80 Sunder is 785 per stack. Curse of Recklessness is 640 ArPen at level 70, 800 ArPen at level 80, so that's no good either.

It doesn't match Expose Armor or Faerie Fire either.

Is there some other ArPen ability we're missing here?

WarTotem · 08/22/08, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

Is there some other ArPen ability we're missing here?

I dunno, is there any AoE ArP debuff in-game atm?

mako · 08/22/08, 11:28 AM

sjogren · 08/22/08, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

Curse of Recklessness is 640 ArPen at level 70, 800 ArPen at level 80, so that's no good either.

Err, level 56 CoR is 640 and level 69 is 800.

Merple · 08/22/08, 11:39 AM

I haven't seen any mention of Disengage being a 13 yard backwards leap that's available at level 20. A PvP buff and a good mobility generator in raids. "Get out of the fire" just got a lot easier.

Shandara · 08/22/08, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Merple

I haven't seen any mention of Disengage being a 13 yard backwards leap that's available at level 20. A PvP buff and a good mobility generator in raids. "Get out of the fire" just got a lot easier.

Mages complaining about blinking backwards when they tried to go forwards have been a staple of the official forums for years, are we next? It really depends on how good the logic in it is, really.

Redzin · 08/22/08, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Merple

I haven't seen any mention of Disengage being a 13 yard backwards leap that's available at level 20. A PvP buff and a good mobility generator in raids. "Get out of the fire" just got a lot easier.

It requires a target in melee range, you can't just randomly use it, afaik anyway... could someone in the beta confirm/deny this please?

Cranch · 08/22/08, 11:50 AM

Redzin said it first.