WotLK Talents & Abilities Discussion - Page 78

Conscience · 08/23/08, 3:33 PM

Quick report from the beta realms: Improved Tracking doesn't work with HM. (I didn't see that being already mentioned here, though there were people asking for testing.)

Johrael · 08/23/08, 4:00 PM

I played around a bit with Misdirection and Distracting Shot last night and found that Distracting Shot always makes the mob go after you, even you use it during a Misdirect. I didn't throughly test it as it was late, but I'm pretty confident in what I found. Anyone found something to the contrary?

KraxisSingular · 08/23/08, 5:06 PM

Originally Posted by TrevvyTrev

My point is that we have no idea whether the person who wrote the tooltips for the talent "went out of [his or her] way" to limit it to melee. Even if Rampage was intended to be melee only at the time the tooltip was written, maybe it was written before they decided that they wanted it to "overlap" with LotP, which of course also affects ranged. While it's clear what was written (melee) it's not clear that's the final intention is. For example, here's what Ghostcrawler said:

Leader of the Pack is a 5% melee crit bonus, true. It is also a 5% ranged crit bonus. Is he saying that they are removing the crit bonus for ranged from LotP? Is he just giving an example for the people who only care about melee crit? Is he suggesting that only the melee parts willl "overlap" but the ranged parts won't (so for melee crit, your choices are feral druid and fury warrior, while for ranged crit they are feral druid and [some class they haven't gotten around to mentioning yet]? Or was he being less than precise when he said melee, and instead meant melee and ranged (because LotP is a melee and ranged buff)?

Beats me. What I do know is that they specifically said they wanted to cover everyone's desired buffs, AND have them covered by more than one source so that no one spec or class was "required." The idea that hunters are being cut out of the buff pool directly runs counter to what they said they were trying to accomplish, which suggests to me that it is not a very well-grounded fear. We are great theorycrafters, but we are HORRIBLE mind-readers and soothsayers. We therefore should stick to what we know.

As for why something might not be implemented even if it is planned (mindful once again that we have no idea what they plan to do with anything except insofar as they have announced it), the answer is simple -- BETA. There is a laundry list of things that are planned to work one way and don't. Many specifically say they are doing one thing and it's planned that eventually they will do something completely different. See, e.g., Trap Mastery. It says it's a 5% reduced chance to resist traps right now on beta. But we've been told that the final design for that is completely different. As the designers have said many times, data gets pulled into builds/calculators right when they are in the middle of working sometimes. Some of what we are doing here is similar to holding someone responsible for inconsistencies in a paper they are writing, right after deciding to print it out before they were even done writing it.

A very possible scenario.

The comment from GC looks more like a general inconsideration. Not in him being inconsiderate towards Hunters, but more along the lines of "There are melee buffs and caster buffs." Hunters are just added as an afterthought. I wouldn't be surprised that Rampage woudl only be melee not because they don't want it to affect us, but more because it is generally not considered. I know it is a cynical thought, but looking around at Icy Touch and now this is it that far out? We are and likely will remain a buffproblem because of range and buffs not helping us etc.

The main problem I see with this is that the same indifference, or appearance of indifference, will carry over to players in general. We will be somewhat more likely to be an unknown in regards to buffs for people. Just like I often see Hunters rezzed last and people begin buffing before we have our pets out. Not because they want to 'hurt' us, but because they don't know that our pets share buffs with Warriors and that they are important to our DPS.

It is just easier to talk about melee crit since the vast majority of those that will get the buff will be melee. Ranged is an afterthought as I said.

PSGarak · 08/23/08, 5:38 PM

It's still beta. The consideration right now shouldn't be "does it affect hunters" but "should it affect hunters by the time it goes live." They gutted and recreated two warrior trees, and forgot the synergy with one class on one completely redesigned talent. Like Voltaire quoted that one other guy, "never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence." It's sad that most people forget hunters and think of "melee" and "physical" as synonyms, but you guys really should expect it by now rather than thinking each new "melee" buff was specifically designed to exclude hunters.

Redzin · 08/23/08, 6:06 PM

To all those wondering which class is getting something to replace Scorpid Sting - Tier 5 Death Knight Frost talent called "Frigid Dreadplate".

"Enemies hitting you in melee have a 30/60/100% chance to become unsettled, decreasing their chance to hit by 5% for the next 12 seconds."

And actually there is another spell that will regen Energy/Rage/Runic power beside Hunting Party- Resto Druids Rejuvenation will have a 15% chance per tick to regen the same amounts as Hunting Party. Not quite the same as Hunting Party, obviously, but Hunting Party isn't completely unique.

Anyway... what's replacing (or competing with) Expose Weakness?

Gearknight · 08/23/08, 6:17 PM

Originally Posted by Redzin

Anyway... what's replacing (or competing with) Expose Weakness?

Trueshot aura. Although, the same hunter can get both by sacrificing hunting party, readiness, and explosive shot.

Steelfleece · 08/23/08, 6:50 PM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

A very possible scenario.

The comment from GC looks more like a general inconsideration. Not in him being inconsiderate towards Hunters, but more along the lines of "There are melee buffs and caster buffs." Hunters are just added as an afterthought. I wouldn't be surprised that Rampage woudl only be melee not because they don't want it to affect us, but more because it is generally not considered. I know it is a cynical thought, but looking around at Icy Touch and now this is it that far out? We are and likely will remain a buffproblem because of range and buffs not helping us etc.

Well, at the moment Rampage does affect ranged crit (despite saying melee) if you're in range.

Kaejin · 08/23/08, 7:03 PM

Blizzard has been taking care of a lot of longstanding hunter problems recently. I wonder if it's too much to hope for a graceful (or at least acceptable) solution to the melee/ranged buff thing soon.

Grogzor · 08/23/08, 7:17 PM

Aren't they doing that? I mean the two big offenders were Windfury and Battle Shout and Windfury is being changed to include us and I believe they gave Hunter's Mark the AP bonus realizing we don't get Battle Shout so they would have to probably nerf that if they gave us Battle Shout affecting RAP.

I hope that in WotLK they don't make any boss fights where pets are actually dangerous to use.

Redzin · 08/23/08, 7:22 PM

Originally Posted by Gearknight

Trueshot aura. Although, the same hunter can get both by sacrificing hunting party, readiness, and explosive shot.

I doubt they would make 2 different specs of the same class provide the "same" buff. That's simply too boring, especially considering that one person can get both.

And beside, Expose Weakness is a debuff while Trueshot Aura is a buff. TSA is more likely gonna compete with Abomination's Might or Unleashed Rage (or both). If EW is the same catagory as all those, then we have 4 different class-defining (or atleast spec-defining) buffs that doesn't stack. That kinda sucks.

Edit: Oh, and as the above poster mentioned, we have Battle Shout in the pool as well...

ZulazeeluIcecrown · 08/23/08, 7:32 PM

Originally Posted by Trickytrout

So after reading through this thread I'm starting to get the idea that SV may be the best DPS spec in the expansion. Am I going crazy or is this correct? If any beta people could chime in that would be awesome. SV looks damn fun in Wrath with all the new changes.

As I understand it, no, it is not correct. Beast Mastery will still be the number one best DPS spec. However, there are a lot of people here who seem to be excited by the thought of playing Survival because it's utility and DPS has been buffed to the point where the combination make it more viable than in BC.

Not me, though, I'll still be BM spec!

HellyardsOwn · 08/23/08, 7:43 PM

The thing to remember is that TSA and EW -DO- stack, despite the other buffs. So, having 1 hybrid monster pick those both up, and improved hunter's mark and you're good to go, I suppose.

Another thing I noticed while playing beta, since haste doesn't affect steady shot, and there is no auto shot clipping, with steady shots new 2 second cast time, is Serpent's Swiftness played out?!

Eurytos · 08/23/08, 9:25 PM

Don't forget Blessing of Might when considering these attack power buffs.

Rogue's are going to get Expose Weakness... I feel it in my gut.

KraxisSingular · 08/23/08, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by HellyardsOwn

Another thing I noticed while playing beta, since haste doesn't affect steady shot, and there is no auto shot clipping, with steady shots new 2 second cast time, is Serpent's Swiftness played out?!

Haste DO affect Steady Shot, or else something has been changed since the last comments on the matter from testers. The point is just that Quiver and SS alone bring it below the GCD and as such WF brings very little to the table for BM in raids. But what else is there to take? It isn't as if you can take those points and put them in Marked for Death or Lightning Reflexes. And in any case the buff to the pet and your own autos will still be something.

But the 'yellow' scaling of SS is lost when WF is put up. It isn't for Surv and MM, they scale nicely at about 15% haste on top of quiver. And they have other better scaling talents, though Surv is less direct than MM (all those +damage talents do add up in the end).

I haven't seen any tests as to DPS of the different specs with WF and without. I'm pretty certain that MM at least will close the gap pretty fast as its talents will make better use of non-haste buffs, while the BM talents result in extra haste giving a rather poor return. I am happy that Seperation Anxiety might see a boost. 10% pet and 5% hunter perhaps? Should be a nice little change.

If they buff the pet even more we might end up in a silly situation where our pets do almost as much damage as we do. We can't have that honestly, it would make us brittle to unavoidable damage, and it would make us horrible for pet-unfriendly fights. 30-35% is more than enough for pets.

ZulazeeluIcecrown · 08/23/08, 11:41 PM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

Haste DO affect Steady Shot, or else something has been changed since the last comments on the matter from testers. The point is just that Quiver and SS alone bring it below the GCD and as such WF brings very little to the table for BM in raids. But what else is there to take? It isn't as if you can take those points and put them in Marked for Death or Lightning Reflexes. And in any case the buff to the pet and your own autos will still be something.

But the 'yellow' scaling of SS is lost when WF is put up. It isn't for Surv and MM, they scale nicely at about 15% haste on top of quiver. And they have other better scaling talents, though Surv is less direct than MM (all those +damage talents do add up in the end).

I haven't seen any tests as to DPS of the different specs with WF and without. I'm pretty certain that MM at least will close the gap pretty fast as its talents will make better use of non-haste buffs, while the BM talents result in extra haste giving a rather poor return. I am happy that Seperation Anxiety might see a boost. 10% pet and 5% hunter perhaps? Should be a nice little change.

If they buff the pet even more we might end up in a silly situation where our pets do almost as much damage as we do. We can't have that honestly, it would make us brittle to unavoidable damage, and it would make us horrible for pet-unfriendly fights. 30-35% is more than enough for pets.

I really think you and others who make comments like this are drastically underestimating the proportion of your damage that comes from auto-shot and pet auto-attack, both of which 100% benefit from Haste. Some pet specials may even count as spells and benefit from the GCD reduction of haste, though I'd guess probably not.

But the point is: Haste still affects auto-shot for all Hunter specs. Haste will still increase your DPS even without affecting Steady Shot. Yes, I understand it will not increase it as much, but not to bring up the concept of rounding again... but you seem to be rounding the effect down to zero, which is extremely inaccurate indeed!

Since it doesn't scale as well, it would not make sense for a BM Hunter to stack Haste on gear, true. But to proclaim that WF brings "nothing" to a BM Hunter is just plain silly.

Nantuko · 08/24/08, 6:01 AM

Originally Posted by Johrael

I played around a bit with Misdirection and Distracting Shot last night and found that Distracting Shot always makes the mob go after you, even you use it during a Misdirect. I didn't throughly test it as it was late, but I'm pretty confident in what I found. Anyone found something to the contrary?

Nope, you are sadly correct. I guess my original theory on this was false.

And can you guys stop with this SS vs WF nonsense. A BM hunter would not pass up 20 percent haste + mana regen + massive pet damage for "yellow scaling."

Edit: L&L is borked at the moment, doesn't proc off traps. But even without that it seems a tad powerful. Example: attack 3 mobs, run them through a trap(no proc), sting them all(proc), fire 3 explosive shots and they all fall down.

Now, imagine this in a fight like Morogrim if fully working. I'm guessing it would dethrone Seed of Corruption in AOE ridiculousness.

Darkmantle · 08/24/08, 7:05 AM

Originally Posted by Johrael

I played around a bit with Misdirection and Distracting Shot last night and found that Distracting Shot always makes the mob go after you, even you use it during a Misdirect. I didn't throughly test it as it was late, but I'm pretty confident in what I found. Anyone found something to the contrary?

If distracting shot retains its 8 second cooldown I forsee massive hunter + warlock abuse to ping pong mobs around the place. The possibilities that come to my mind of a 6 second mocking blow from 41 yards are too delicious to contemplate.

KraxisSingular · 08/24/08, 7:28 AM

Originally Posted by Nantuko

And can you guys stop with this SS vs WF nonsense. A BM hunter would not pass up 20 percent haste + mana regen + massive pet damage for "yellow scaling."

And maybe you should begin to read my post. I specifically stated that it was only the yellow part that was lost.
I have been running on an assumption that Autos stand for about 35% of personal DPS, since that was mentioned a long time ago here. Of course it might have changed since but nobody has said as much. The reason being that specials are cast all the time. That alone has sparked many comments that Hunter DPS has gone up as a result. Well, if it has gone up and we don't put out more Autos, then clearly Autos stand for a fairly reduced amount.

Could a tester please find out how much we are talking about.
If the 35% is about right then WF adds something like 7% personal DPS and about 15% pet damage (if pet specials remain the same, however blue posts have indicated they should now scale with AP, might change the pet yellow output one way or the other).

Originally Posted by Steelfleece

Well, at the moment Rampage does affect ranged crit (despite saying melee) if you're in range.

Sorry for not commenting on this in my earlier post. Given it was more or less directed at my other previous post.
Well, that makes it interesting I should say. Could we hope that it stays and expect the tooltip writer to be the one who borked up the entire physical = melee stuff? Well, I will keep that hope.

Cranch · 08/24/08, 2:48 PM

Originally Posted by Nantuko

Edit: L&L is borked at the moment, doesn't proc off traps. But even without that it seems a tad powerful. Example: attack 3 mobs, run them through a trap(no proc), sting them all(proc), fire 3 explosive shots and they all fall down.

Now, imagine this in a fight like Morogrim if fully working. I'm guessing it would dethrone Seed of Corruption in AOE ridiculousness.

So you've confirmed the explosive trap DoT stacks? Cool. You do need to switch targets on the explosive shots, right?

That's exactly what I've been planning to use L&L for, so I hope Blizzard keeps it in (at least until open beta.)

Note that you can consider this Blizzard's way of allowing more classes to do significant AoE damage, which is not a bad thing at all.

Nantuko · 08/24/08, 4:52 PM

Originally Posted by Cranch

So you've confirmed the explosive trap DoT stacks? Cool. You do need to switch targets on the explosive shots, right?

I've been trying to test that, but I honestly don't know. Mostly I just hit other targets and I think that the aoe dot stacks, but I can't tell because I'm testing on mobs that die too damn fast to tell. Stupid Shoveltusks.

And sorry KraxisSingular if I upset you, but honestly our only yellow that benefits from haste is steady shot, and since whenever I get SS I also get Cobra strikes which significantly boosts DPS compounded with Invigoration. I don't know if this is the standard BM spec, but those 2 talents have synergy so they appear to be made in conjunction. And, yes, no one knows whether auto-shot will stay 35-40 percent of our damage since raiding is still a while away in the beta, but I bet that assumption is not far off.

Jintra · 08/24/08, 4:54 PM

Originally Posted by Serpent's Choice

Something like this, perhaps? Surefooted has been argued as a PVP talent, but the known level 80 itemization at this time is thin on hit rating. There will certainly be hit rating available, but the known items strongly suggest that alternatives to high +hit pieces will exist, allowing Surefooted to shift +hit to better-scaling pieces through intelligent gear acquisition, yielding a significant net dps gain.

This build doesn't have Sniper Training, but I'm singularly unimpressed with that talent. Using Eurytos's math from a page or so back, ST applies on (2591.41 - [953.41 + 0.1*2740.82]) / 2591.41 = 52.62% of our damage, assuming we meet the range requirement. It increases that damage by 6%, for a 3.16% total increase in dps, or, otherwise stated, 1.05% dps per talent point spent -- when it applies.

Noxious Stings is easier math to apply. The talent provides a 3% increase in dps, but has a 1 talent point useless prerequisite. Noxious Stings is therefore only 0.16% less total dps improvement than Sniper Training, but is less efficient, only granting 0.75% dps per talent point.

The problem with these numbers, of course, is that Sniper Training does not always apply. And unless you can meet the range requirement on Sniper Training > 95% of the time, Noxious Stings is a bigger average dps modifier than Sniper Training; the only question remaining is whether it is worth the additional point for that effect. Notabily, if you maintain Sniper Training less < 71.2% of the time, then the per-point dps value of Noxious Stings passes it as well. Until we see the raid environment in WotLK, it is impossible to know whether we will or will not be able to keep Sniper Training range for any given percentage time. But I do not like those odds, especially when we consider the running discussion about extreme range as a detriment to buff radii.

If you really, really want dps at all costs, the three points in Hawk Eye in that build can be moved to Lock and Load for an extra ~1% total dps increase. Personally, I prefer the range as an option when needed and as a pulling assist. Others' opinions will doubtless vary; I am pleased that there is at least some movement possible in these talent designs.

We've done it with frenzy (the BM-faction at least ^^) and with decent gear with Expose Weekness.
Sometimes even 4/5 or 2/3 Points will do.

You've brought 2 points into the "how to skill" discussion:
a) Surefooted could be a filler till enough gear is aquired (which actualy won't take "long", refering to blue)
b) we'll have to assume, that it won't be possible to substain the >30y range for the most time of our fights. (hi @ totem-range for example)
BM are doing well without 41y range now, so we won't have "issues" with that though.

So we get: Sniper training, surefooted and Hawk eye (propably) won't be "key" talents.
If we go with theese assumtions, we'll get
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Hunter -> Talent Calculator
2/3 surefooted will still allow us to use more crit/agi-based Gear. 2/3 EW sure will be a small decrease in EW uptime (though it'll be still >85% at~35% crit - with lower crit most hunters won't go SV...hopefully...).
4/5 Hunting Party still will give a decent ammount of mp/rage/energy/RP per 5 secs.
In exchange we'll get a 100% uptime 3% dmg-boost, assuming we're playing "rogue-style" (I'm comparing SnD with Serpent Sting here, as both classes WILL have to maintain these buffs).

Theese are my ill thoughts so far

KraxisSingular · 08/24/08, 5:48 PM

Originally Posted by Nantuko

And sorry KraxisSingular if I upset you, but honestly our only yellow that benefits from haste is steady shot, and since whenever I get SS I also get Cobra strikes which significantly boosts DPS compounded with Invigoration. I don't know if this is the standard BM spec, but those 2 talents have synergy so they appear to be made in conjunction. And, yes, no one knows whether auto-shot will stay 35-40 percent of our damage since raiding is still a while away in the beta, but I bet that assumption is not far off.

Very well.
Steady and Aimed (why BM would have that is unknwn to me, but someone might get it) are affected by haste. But incidentally Steady is also our most spammed shot, and will likely remain so for a good time to come. If we assume Serpent Sting is used and Arcane on every CD then it is going to be about three GCDs every 12-15 seconds. Hardly the greater part.
For MM it is going to be one GCD every 10-12 seconds (Chimera, Serpent is being kept up).
Survival is likely the most prolific user of instants with Serpent on a frequency like BM and Explosive on CD, and the odd LnL proc.
So MM is the greatest beneficiary of WF, BM the least and Surv somewhere in the middle. Even if BM was to recieve full benefit of WF it wouldn't do as well as MM in that regard, depending on the stated aim of every spec using an instant shot and a sting. No instant would change it a bit, but MM would still benefit slightly more (but it is getting to be very little).

Jintra · 08/24/08, 6:22 PM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

Survival is likely the most prolific user of instants with Serpent on a frequency like BM and Explosive on CD, and the odd LnL proc.

Not really. Arcane and Explosive are on the same CD so far. Only usage for Arcane I can see is during LnL procc -> explosive, arcane, explosive <- as the ES debuffs don't stack. 2 ES in a row will result in a refresh of the first ES-Buff. So 2 initial DmG-Ticks and 3 (first with the second initial) follow-up ticks.

So SV will be on the same instant-"spam" level as MM. ATM I'm using more "instants" as MM (multi, serpent, chimära, arcane). So far Gimptra (thats jintra on beta-test) only hit 77 so we'll see how much this "rotation" will change during Raid progress.

KraxisSingular · 08/24/08, 7:03 PM

Originally Posted by Jintra

Not really. Arcane and Explosive are on the same CD so far. Only usage for Arcane I can see is during LnL procc -> explosive, arcane, explosive <- as the ES debuffs don't stack. 2 ES in a row will result in a refresh of the first ES-Buff. So 2 initial DmG-Ticks and 3 (first with the second initial) follow-up ticks.

So SV will be on the same instant-"spam" level as MM. ATM I'm using more "instants" as MM (multi, serpent, chimära, arcane). So far Gimptra (thats jintra on beta-test) only hit 77 so we'll see how much this "rotation" will change during Raid progress.

Lets count:

BM is assumed to follow Blizz' wish of using Arcane at CD (mind you at this time it doesn't look attractive). That means three instant casts every rotation of up to 15 seconds (Arcane will likely move up a bit depending on how close to 15 the rotation goes).

MM doesn't need to spec Multishot talents anymore and can thus safely ignore the manahog, and instead use Steady with the glyph, which should put it perhaps not on top of Multi for damage, but close to it. Remember that only Marked for Death affects Multi of the new talents, and not even fully. Arcane remains iffy due to damage. This is the issue with BM too, but at least MM has the instant in Chimera, I believe it was also mention as a possible instant they want used. In any case Arcane as it is isn't worth it in mana at early raiding, and it is definately not going to be worth it with the improved Steady Shot (both the talent and the fact that it now factors in ammo DPS), and decidedly not with the glyph. So when Serpent has been applied the rotation is mainly going to be Steady and Chimera. I seriously doubt either Arcane or Multi will be worth it. That is one instant in each rotation of 10-12 seconds. The amount of procs from Imp Steady Shot should end up fitting Chimera Shot cooldown rather nicely. Wasting it too early on an Arcane could end up causing some DPS and mana issues.

Survival however follow the same rotation as the BM rotation mentioned. They want to use Explosive as much as possible and have Serpent up as much as possible. But when LnL proc they add another two instants to the rotation. That makes them use the most instants of the three specs. I think the discussion has so far shown that Arcane isn't worth it in the LnL proc rotation. But that is not an issue anyway since it is also an instant. I assume you didn't think I wanted the Surv rotation to drop two Steadies fro two Arcanes on top of the Exlposives? I know very well that Explosive and Arcane are on the same CD.

So LnL means Survival uses the most instant shots. And if Arcane remains as unattractive as it is now (the glyph is a joke) then it will by far use the most instants as BM drops to a one instant per rotation cycle like MM.

Spiry · 08/24/08, 7:20 PM

I think I read somewhere that Arcane/Chimera/Explosive Shot all share cooldown (well not CH/EX as you can't get them together, but the Ar/CH and Ar/EX so that MM can't weave Ar and CH together?)