muwatallis

After having an answer to my question, it seems to me that MM/SV playstyle will be much similar to pre-TBC when all the hunters were hungering for [Ashjre'thul, Crossbow of Smiting]. I presume unless nothing of a vital change is implemented once again, as a survival i will end up trying to get enough of a Haste Rating just to increase the Steady Shot speed to abouts of 1.5 with a similarly slow weapon(Not for the speed, since Auto Shot is reset by Steady Shot; but the damage increase on Auto Shot) , and then put some Serpent, Arcane and Exploding Shots between every time the CD is up in the rotation. And my build most likely will be this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Is it really simple like this, or am i too straightforward thinking? Accepting all blames.

The Dragon's Flight

 

Greenpiggy

Steady Shot is normalised still, the tooltip is just misleading.
Tested on Beta by a few people and Lactose posted this a few pages back - ammo contribution is also normalised too, so zero benefit from going for slow weapons.

 

Selmarix

Is only the AP contribution normalized or also the pure weapon damage contribution? (for most melee attacks only the AP contribution is normalized)

 

TrevvyTrev

To be fair, part of this is because rogues (and cat druids) already have a 1 second GCD by default. This also means that any potential change would not affect them anyway, because the designers have set the lower limit for hasted GCDs to be the same as what they already have.

 

◊ Lactose

My post about this:

Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max

 

Ravenfire

Some Wild Quiver information for those interested.
Assuming a 100dps 3.0 weapon.

It deals Nature damage and thus ignores armor.
Its base damage pre-talents can be calculated via: [100 * 3.0] + [RAP / 14 * 3.0]
It does not use ammo in any form (consumption or damage calculation).
Other then its proc chance, Auto Shot has no bearing on Wild Quiver. (normal --> normal, normal --> crit, crit --> normal, or crit --> crit)
It acts like Arcane shot in that it can be "Blocked" for partial damage reduction.
Is definitely increased by: Hunter's Mark, Mortal Shot, Marked for Death, RWS, CoE, and the 3% crit damage Meta gem.
Likely increased by: Focused Fire, Imp. Tracking, and other debuffs that increase Nature damage.
Uses ranged crit chance as its determinate.

 

Kigale

Does Thori'dal, the Stars' Fury get a bonus since the ammo dps is baked into the bow's?

 

Bovii

I find it interesting that you decided to take Sniper Training and Aimed Shot while forgoing Master Tactician considering the damage boost that MT provides, even with your high base crit %, and the fact that Kill Shot is currently terrible due to the stun. I'm interested in your line of thinking. Personally, I find Aimed Shot to be a terrible talent for pure PvE situations. Even in pull scenarios, it is still bad.

 

Kaejin

That's all kind of weird considering how the talent is worded. Will it do less damage against targets with high nature resist? I assume so, but confirmation would be nice. Seems like they could just call the talent "Poison Arrows" and no one would know the difference.

 

Ghostyman

Am I unique in that I believe Aimed Shot should be a trained skill?

I understand the implications of being able to, for instance, spec into both BM the talent and Scatter Shot; or maybe fill up Frenzy if you are so inclined. I'm just throwing this out there as a possible "What If?" scenario.

EDIT: Grammar

 

Kaejin

It is kind of interesting in that it's almost entirely PvP oriented now, something Blizzard tries to avoid most the time. About the only use it has in PvE is in conjunction with Misdirect. Opening with a hard hitter like Aimed usually isn't the best when soloing, as it peels aggro from pets pretty easy unless you give them a moment (which kind of negates the use of a high damage opener in the first place). Same idea for groups, but not quite as bad because of snap aggro abilities. Still not really ideal, however.

Maybe Blizzard should review the skill. There's no question that it's great for PvP, but that's the only thing I ever consider the skill for.

 

Catalept

Given that Blizzard seems happy with keeping the Mortal Strike effect on it, it's definitely becoming something of a single-parent child... I'm certainly finding myself completely ignoring it when tinkering with PvE builds. The problem is that Blizzard doesn't want it back in our rotations, so then only real way to improve its PvE use would be to improve its synergy with Misdirection... something like making it generate double threat, or not decrementing Misdirection's shot counter. Feels wierd skipping it after spending the last 4 years thinking of it as a 'must have'.

 

Grogzor

With regards to Cobra Strikes, will we be able to go down to 3/5 frenzy? I mean, with 25%ish crit, Cobra Strikes should proc once every 10 seconds on average so that gives you 3 chances to bring frenzy up. Would that be enough to keep frenzy up with 3/5?

But when it comes time for me to remove your wings, and you, you must try to fly...

Click Here to see what makes me tic(k).

What Are You Going to Roll for Warhammer Online?

 

Ravenfire

The Beta got a hot fix.
Serpent Sting is now fixed and deals proper damage. (FINALLY)
Chimera shot appears to have been changed and now deals Nature damage as base (no sting on the target).
Chimera shot also is still very buggy in that it no longer works with ANY sting and still doesn't refreash the duration of any stings that happens to be on the target.

 

Garf

I miss a few more thoughts on the glyphs. As I understand the system right now, it's like gems or enchants, as in - you use one, then you can possibly overwrite one, but not just de-equip/re-equip as you wish. If that's the case, it seems people who like pvp and pve both are fairly screwed (what with the +10% steady damage w/ serpent being mandatory for pve and fairly uselss for pvp, as example).

 

Prinsesa

Garf: Datamining UI messages indicates that unlike gems, Glyphs can be removed completely without being replaced, precisely because the double-edged sword nature of some Glyphs can make you want to remove it without necessarily putting something else in that slot.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Steelfleece

Chimera Shot has been working like that since the latest build. At least, that's how it was when I tested it a day or two ago (Nature damage, didn't interact with stings).

affect –verb (used with object) 1. to act on; produce an effect or change in
effect –noun 1. something that is produced by an agency or cause; result; consequence
Know the difference.

 

Chul

Blizzard has said that they want each spec to be firing CS/ES/AS as their primary spell, and other shots around the cooldown. With ES and AS ignoring armour and getting buffed with spell dmg debuffs, I guess this change is to make the three main shots consistant.

Hopefully next they'll look at improving AS (like fixing its RAP scaling, giving BM hunters a chance to increase the damage of it etc).

 

Conscience

On Kill Shot: Its stun/knockback side effect is just one second, isn't it? Maybe it could be woven in beetween two Autoshots. Anyone got an idea how similar effects work today in regards to the weapon-swingtimer?

 

Silverhorn

Unfortunately this won't happen,at least for the time being, as Kill Shot actually interrupts you,and cancels your Auto Shot.
So your swing timer is reset.

Truth is a question of point of view.
We all have our truths.

 

takel

Well, I personally don't want to see CS as a nature damage clone of AS. If the bonus damage from the synergy with Serpent was dealt in nature damage, and can crit, then I don't think there needs to be all that much change since Chimera will also be 'adding' an extra shot's worth of damage every 15-18 seconds with not needing to refresh Serpent's timer. Depending on how Chimera resolves its Serpent Sting synergy damage, we could potentially see that damage double-dip on debuffs with the first round modifying Serpent's damage, and thus the base damage of the synergy and the second round affecting the resulting damage. Much in the same way Seal of Command double-dips on Avenging Wrath.

Let's run some napkin numbers on that thought. Let us use current, level 70 numbers. Rank 10 Serpent deals 660 base damage. Let's add 4000 RAP on target, so we'll add another 800 damage for a total base of 1460 damage. Add in the 1.3 multiplier with Imp Stings, the 1.05 with RWS and 1.02 with Focused Fire. I'm not adding new talents such as Marked and Imp Tracking since those would pull out the 'base' damage on Steady. We have a total Serpent damage of 2032. Not bad. Let's add Misery and CoE which add 5 and 10% spell damage respectively. That's a new total of 2347 damage. 40% of that is 939 damage. Let's assume that damage is subject to Misery and CoE again, which brings it up to around 1085 damage. A nice 140ish boost in damage by double dipping and it's about the same expected damage for a Steady Shot before crits and we haven't looked at the 125% normalised damage from the base shot.


If Chimera's cool down remains at 10 seconds and doesn't share with AS, then we could be seeing MM hunters firing AS and CS in their rotations. Can anyone confirm if Chimera's CD is still 10 seconds and shares AS?

Kill Shot. I'm a bit half-half on this ability. While yes, the conditional damage is great and all, I believe we'll be rather short-sighted in thinking it's a great ability to load into our cycles for low health targets in its current state because it shares one common trait with Arcane Shot: 15% RAP scaling. Yes, Arcane Shot bypassed armour, but we all saw what happened when our gear improved. Steady Shot outstripped its damage simply because it scaled better. While the stupidly good conditional damage on Kill Shot will prevent it from sharing Arcane's fate for a long while, I'd rather not have a conditional pebble shooter who's only being saved by the base damage. I'd rather all our abilities have proper scaling so that they all retain their purpose at all gear levels.

 

orinaccio

Chimera Shot is indeed buggy but in a different way than its previous bugged state. Chimera + viper used to work, albeit in a very underwhelming manner. Now Chimera+viper doesnt work at all. Chimera does its damage but no mana is returned to the hunter.

Chimera+sting seems to be the same way - damage is inflicted but serpent sting is neither consumed nor refreshed.

Its looking like Chimera is just operating on its own now - clearly its bugged and hopefully next build we get a more fleshed out version to work with.

My observations so far as a MM hunter in beta: Chimera Shot definitely belongs in a shot rotation now. Mana consumption is a HUGE issue (altho mana usage cant really be judged until Blizz says the mana system is ready for testing) so our shot rotation will largely hinge upon what shots' mana consumption allows for sustainable dps time.

My MM shot rotation during mob grinding has been serpent + steady + chimera shot which usually finishes off mobs. If it doesnt, I tack on a Kill Shot for good measure if Im impatient, but usually the smarter thing to do is to just wait for the next autoshot which will take down the mob for no mana.

I have no idea what my shot rotation will be like during a boss fight - the uncertainty with mana costs overall and the bugged Aspect of the Viper leaves me without any clue whatsoever what I'd want to use, although I would love to throw in Arcane, and maybe Multi, in an "all-out DPS" shot rotation mode.

 

muwatallis

I believe Sniper Training is a good PvE choice of any hunter who'd spec into Survival. But if not, could you please tell me your opinion why? I'll be glad to hear/read anything informing for why not to.

On Aimed Shot, well, there was 1 free talent point there and my thought was to put it into a "utility" which i am not sure where to use but rarely on PvP occasions. So honestly it is not really "a choice".

And Master Tactician, at the beginner level of raiding in WotLK i believe that will be a must but not until the unbuffed crit percent exceeds the 37% upwards like it is in TBC. Right now raid buffed it easily reaches 49% with my crap gear, and more with a pure decent SV gear. Once i have that, from my point of view rolling into the spec i linked(Okay, ignore the Aimed Shot part) i believe the DPS increase that i may lose with missing MT can be gained from the Serpent Sting related talent combos. Basically my prospections are set on raid wide buffs and totems. Only math proves, gotta see the final results at once.

Still, accepting all blames.

The Dragon's Flight

 

Bovii

Well, Master Tactician being needed or not really boils down to how our future gear representation looks like. Remember, prior to the expansion, with maxed out BWL gear (can't speak to full T3 as I never saw it and very few Hunters did) and accessories, a Survival Hunter was only sitting at 30-35% crit. And Blizzard has gone on record and said that they made a terrible mistake in the stat jump from vanilla gear to TBC gear and would NOT be making that mistake with the expansion. Combine that with the increased level of stats needed to achieve the same increase in crit%, well, in a nutshell, we could be back to pre-TBC crit % which would boost the value of MT to a greater level.

I've seen a lot of people saying that they're going to spec X and spec Y, etc. All that we can really plan on is the current content. Someone mentioned earlier about the value of Sniper Training and how few encounters allow it to be utilized to the max. As SWP is all that I'm going to be doing, I don't know that it is worth it. Plus, the stun factor on Kill Shot just makes me weary of its use. Then again, I sit at 47-50% crit when raid buffed so how useful would MT be?

For me, looking at what we have in front of us prior to the expasion, speccing Survival is going to be rather tricky. You've got to put at least 10 points in MM for the basics but if you put anymore in there, you lose Explosive Shot. But if you bank everything on Explosive Shot, you're missing out on added RAP from Careful Aim and you're losing the focus regen from Go For The Throat. The utlimate question for me is Explosive Shot worth the cost? I can go 0/18/43 and still utilize LnL with Arcane Shot and boosting my Sting damage. BUT, am I putting too many points in the MM tree for something that may or may not be worth while?


PS> Can't wait for the respec stones to allow us to bounce back and forth. Should have been added in back at game release but you know how that goes.

 

Serpent's Choice

Sniper Training, under optimal conditions, is approximately 1.05% dps per point under the conditions that have been generally assumed in this thread. Master Tactician's uptime results in that talent providing roughly 1.06% dps per point. There are enough uncertainties in the prior assumptions behind that Sniper Training calculation to assume the difference is within a reasonable margin of error. However, that assumes 100% uptime on Sniper Training, ignores any complications that extreme range may cause in regard to buff radii, and ignores the synergy between Master Tactician and Hunting Party. Master Tactician is a better talent than Sniper Training.

Regarding the Serpent Sting talents, I am a fairly strong supporter of Noxious Stings, despite being effectively 0.75% dps per point. I believe that this will, under real-world conditions, outperform the per-point contribution of Sniper Training. Improved Stings, on the other hand, I regard poorly for SV with the current skill set. I presented some math supporting it earlier in this thread, but that was prior to the hunter skill revamp and rebalancing of Serpent Sting's coefficient. With the current state of hunter trees and talents, Improved Stings is very poor for the SV hunter. Serpent's Sting is good because of Noxious Stings (and the Glyph), not for its own sake. The Sting itself is only about 7% of an SV hunter's expected dps, at best. A 30% increase to that value is poor and has no synergy with any other talents. It cannot in any way make up for Master Tactician.

Crit does not have diminishing returns in any significant sense, an observation that Hunting Party makes doubly applicable.