... so why not just make EW give a flat 25% AGI back as AP?
That question just points to the larger issue: Why does EW still exist? Surely a similar self-buff could be accomplished by adjusting Lightning Reflexes somewhat.
New changes are so confusing when you cant just log in and try out different specs. For me it seems that 0/11/50 is the only option for when they implement the content patch. Then again for 25 mans you might only need shadowpriest and retri paladin as mana battery which could the kill survival hunter spot in 25 mans if 7/20/34 doesnt provide enough dps compared to other specs.
With EW being self only, it should receive a significant buff to balance out the raid dps lost. Although there's the mana battery thing now, I think it'd be a bad thing if the overall raid dps contribution of Sv went down to such a big extend.
Originally Posted by Osse
For me it seems that 0/11/50 is the only option for when they implement the content patch.
I really don't know why you would want to take 1/2 gftt over ES.
Last edited by Conscience : 08/29/08 at 5:41 AM.
Reason: wording
Is there some bug that I'm unaware of in beta regarding WF/Improved Icy Talons? I was doing some instances yesterday and neither ability was affecting my ranged attack speed, they worked fine for melee attack speed though, at least according to the character panel. I Bugged it, just never noticed it reported anywhere before.
That question just points to the larger issue: Why does EW still exist? Surely a similar self-buff could be accomplished by adjusting Lightning Reflexes somewhat.
They haven't announced what the final version of EW is -- just that it isn't a raid buff. Maybe it will be a flat increase, or maybe it will proc something else in lieu of or addition to what it does now. But even if nothing changes, the simple answer for why it might exist in addition to Lightning Reflexes might be the same reason why there are multiple dps-enhancing talents in any tree -- to spread the points around and keep individual talents from being more powerful (or more costly, as in suddenly we have 6+ point talents) than they wanted.
Originally Posted by Catalept
... so why not just make EW give a flat 25% AGI back as AP?
I guess that's my objection to these changes. At first (and second) glance, it really makes things feel a little flat. For example, although Hunting Party and Vampiric Touch are implemented as 'damage to mana'/'crit to mana' effects, their homogenisation means that now, they function almost exactly the same as a raid wide mana-regen aura. When I gained agility as SV (or, for that matter, more spell damage on my shadow priest), I knew I was not only buffing myself, but the whole raid, just a little. A lot of these new effects have been smoothed out and lined up so despite the details of their implementation, they function as non-scaling, raid-wide auras...
These new low-sugar, caffeine free buffs might be more managable and well-behaved from a developer's point of view, but dammit... sometimes I like a little rampant OP raid stacking
I don't understand why a flat increase is any less flat than a proc -- we even used the word "flat" to describe it. Hunting Party isn't a raid-wide aura at all. It still requires a crit with certain abilities to proc. So now when you buff yourself with *crit*, either through agility or through crit rating, you are not only buffing your own dps, but you are buffing "the whole raid, just a little." A Surv hunter with 50% crit will bring more to the raid than one with 20% crit would (not like there are many 20% crit SV hunters, but still). That may be different for shadow priests, as I'm not sure what they could do to increase the chances of a proc, but they still may be called upon for whatever utility they can bring from discipline spells, and in any event that's probably best left to another thread about priests.
It also goes without saying that some people liked raid stacking, particularly if they were the ones being stacked. But when you have 30 specs and 25 spots, you have to de-emphasize the benefits of stacking somewhat or you have to design certain specs to be underwhelming, so that it's "safe" to leave them out. It's also worth noting that if you have two hunters who are die hard survival fans, it's okay to bring *both* of them since they will now stack with each other where they couldn't before, and your raid might not even miss out on any dps as a result.
They haven't announced what the final version of EW is -- just that it isn't a raid buff.
They announced that it's been changed to self-only. Given any information to the contrary so far, we can only assume it hasn't had any other effects added to it.
Originally Posted by TrevvyTrev
I don't understand why a flat increase is any less flat than a proc -- we even used the word "flat" to describe it.
Because a flat increase applies at all times, against all mobs. For multi-mob fights, or fights where you need to stop attacking the primary target for periods of time, the flat increase provides a more consistent and, hence, greater benefit.
Originally Posted by TrevvyTrev
Hunting Party isn't a raid-wide aura at all. It still requires a crit with certain abilities to proc. So now when you buff yourself with *crit*, either through agility or through crit rating, you are not only buffing your own dps, but you are buffing "the whole raid, just a little." A Surv hunter with 50% crit will bring more to the raid than one with 20% crit would (not like there are many 20% crit SV hunters, but still).
But it's a buff that provides mana regen per second, which implies it has a duration. I think it's fair to assume that it won't stack given all the other changes. As such, there will be a cap at which more procs provides no more benefit. Assuming all that is true (which it may not be), the hunter with 50% crit may not, in fact, provide any more regen than the one with 20% crit.
Originally Posted by TrevvyTrev
It also goes without saying that some people liked raid stacking, particularly if they were the ones being stacked. But when you have 30 specs and 25 spots, you have to de-emphasize the benefits of stacking somewhat or you have to design certain specs to be underwhelming, so that it's "safe" to leave them out. It's also worth noting that if you have two hunters who are die hard survival fans, it's okay to bring *both* of them since they will now stack with each other where they couldn't before, and your raid might not even miss out on any dps as a result.
There's a big difference between
A) Providing multiple, unique buffs that provide similar amounts of benefit, so that you have to choose which ones you want in your raid. Classes of potions/flasks that provide totally different effects but don't stack (ex: haste pot or agi pot) are an example of this type of thing.
B) Providing exactly the same buffs to each class
Blizzard has, in these changes, admitted to that fact that they are incapable of doing the first and have fallen upon the second option in defeat.
I don't need to my buffs to be better than everyone else's and want to be needed for a raid to succeed. However, I do want to be unique. I want to bring something that only my spec brings... its part of the whole "feeling like a hero" rather than "feeling like a foot soldier" thing...
Because a flat increase applies at all times, against all mobs. For multi-mob fights, or fights where you need to stop attacking the primary target for periods of time, the flat increase provides a more consistent and, hence, greater benefit.
I think as a "self-only buff", it will be a buff on you rather than a debuff on the mob (would be rather silly to let it take up a debuff slot), which cancels out most of the concerns you brought up.
They announced that it's been changed to self-only. Given any information to the contrary so far, we can only assume it hasn't had any other effects added to it.
Not always a valid assumption. Focus Magic went from debuff to (group) buff, and as a result the entire implimentation pretty much has to be tossed out the window and replaced with several boldface 24pt question marks. Even if EW hasn't been redesigned yet, you can bet that it will be gutted and replaced if, in testing, it turns out to be as stupid an idea as we all suspect it is. They could also pull a Mage and make it be a duplicate TS aura that procs on crit.
I was, in the beginning of Wrath discussions, happy that they were making some of the hybrid specs better. Maybe I'd get the chance to play my Prot Pally as Ret or finally spec SV and provide my low tier 10man with good DPS returns.
Now I am a bit worried. Assuming that all the things I have read are accurate (about making sure hybrids provide competitive dps) and say a Ret pally can bring the dps that I can, and cleanse, and Judge wisdom, and bring amazing buffs? I guess at that point we'd need to rely on content designers to provide fights that required some amount of range physical damage. There is a good reason that hybrids didn't perfectly fill the roll of pure dps classes. Take away FI stacking (using context clues to guess it doesn't stack across multiple hunters now), EW, ImpHM Melee dmg boost, etc. I love my paladin, but I greatly prefer the hunter, so I hope I still have a choice.
Only thing we can do is get more information and provide feedback.
But it's a buff that provides mana regen per second, which implies it has a duration. I think it's fair to assume that it won't stack given all the other changes. As such, there will be a cap at which more procs provides no more benefit. Assuming all that is true (which it may not be), the hunter with 50% crit may not, in fact, provide any more regen than the one with 20% crit.
Even if it has a duration, there's no reason to think it won't be refreshed, which is certainly better than letting the buff drop off (and indeed, one of the key things SV hunters did to gear themselves was to ensure that EW rarely if ever fell off). In order for there to be no difference at all, the duration would have to be long enough that a 20% proc rate would keep it up perpetually, which seems unlikely. Moreover (and this is the more important part) the buff doesn't necessarily hit the same people each time. The first time it procs, it hits 10 people with the lowest mana, and by the time the second one procs there could be a different set of affected targets, even if the first buff is still ticking.
Originally Posted by Berfert
There's a big difference between
A) Providing multiple, unique buffs that provide similar amounts of benefit, so that you have to choose which ones you want in your raid. Classes of potions/flasks that provide totally different effects but don't stack (ex: haste pot or agi pot) are an example of this type of thing.
B) Providing exactly the same buffs to each class
Blizzard has, in these changes, admitted to that fact that they are incapable of doing the first and have fallen upon the second option in defeat.
Saying they are providing "exactly the same buffs to each class" is a pretty huge exaggeration. Ret paladins and hunters don't provide the same buffs. They overlap with BM hunters in one area, and SV hunters in another, but that's it. Shadow priests don't provide the same buffs as hunters. SV hunters can CC *much* better than either a ret paladin or shadow priest (or even other hunters), so there's no overlap there. Before you say, "but traps are useless in raids," keep in mind that you're thinking of the status quo. There's nothing saying they can't design encounters that focus more on opportunities for hunters to use all their abilities instead of being there just to proc a buff for the melees, but even still, we did roll a (mostly) pure dps class. There's no reason to expect that SV hunters won't be valued simply because they are a high-dps class (at least higher than ret paladins and shadow priests, given that the designers said they intend to balance dps in light of class/spec utility).
Originally Posted by Nyera
Now I am a bit worried. Assuming that all the things I have read are accurate (about making sure hybrids provide competitive dps) and say a Ret pally can bring the dps that I can, and cleanse, and Judge wisdom, and bring amazing buffs?
The stuff you read may be accurate, but you may not have read everything available. This makes your basic assumption (ret pallies will equal you in dps) unreliable. In the very post about the raid stacking, Jimmythenumbers said the following (bolded and italicized, no less):
Before we are done, we will thoroughly test the performance of every class. Do not assume that the classes' current performance relative to others in the beta is final. Some classes (and specializations) will need to be reduced in power and some increased.
This quote, taken in context with other statements regarding the need to make sure that specs/classes with less utility do more dps than those with the additional utility, suggests that a ret pally shouldn't bring the same dps you do *and* provide more utility, and the designers are well aware of that.
The stuff you read may be accurate, but you may not have read everything available. This makes your basic assumption (ret pallies will equal you in dps) unreliable. In the very post about the raid stacking, Jimmythenumbers said the following (bolded and italicized, no less):
This quote, taken in context with other statements regarding the need to make sure that specs/classes with less utility do more dps than those with the additional utility, suggests that a ret pally shouldn't bring the same dps you do *and* provide more utility, and the designers are well aware of that.
I do hope that you are right and as beta testers we can aid them in this. But, it is quotes like this WoW Forums -> Raid stacking in Wrath of the Lich King that cause me to doubt that they will go about it correctly. They do have a finite amount of time to launch this expansion.
From that post:
I'm not so certain raids will fill their remaining slots with rogues and hunters. For one, those classes aren't going to be taking a lot of advantage of all those nice spell buffs you've got going in the raid. Two, if they are bringing buffs, it isn't fair that their dps is greatly superior to everyone else. Higher dps is fine, especially for classes that don't have the option to respec into tank or healing. But it needs to be a modest dps boost, the kind of thing that will be swallowed up by variance in player skill for all but the absolute best 1% of raiding guilds.
There is a very thin line here. On one side hybrids/Hybrid specs (Re Pal, SP respectively) will have to compete for the same raid spot because you don't bring them for DPS you bring them for buffs and regen. On the other side Hybrids are what you bring because their dmg is close enough and they provide other benefits that pure classes do not. 30 viable classes is alot of classes to line up on the top of that line. Speaking from experience this is a major undertaking.
I know it wasn't Blizzard's goal to make previously desired classes less desirable, but that is a consequence of this change. If all goals are met perfectly what we will see is this: There are now 30 (give or take) "good" classes (read: Spec) out there. Each class shares its uniqueness with at least one other classes. Most individual pure classes are less than what they were, but the whole is more equal. Certain classes become less desired than they are simply because other classes become more desirable and there are limit amount of raid slots.
In the end I believe it will work out, but this is an enormous (if necessary) change. A revolution if you will. I don't think anyone who is worried is unjustified. I for one am not paniced, but I am aware that alot can go wrong with a change of this magnitude. Hopefully we will all do what Blizzard needs to help with this change.
First-off, think of the "perfect" situation. You have 30 players, 3 of each class, each a different spec (assuming cookie-cutter-type builds). What does this give us?
1 Feral Druid, 1 Prot Warrior, 1 "Tank" DK, whichever spec that is, 1 Prot Pala = 4 tanks
1 Disc Priest, 1 Holy Priest, 1 Resto Shaman, 1 Resto Druid, 1 Holy Pala = 5 healers
The rest = 21 dps
Think of this what you will, there will of course be more healers and some dps specs probably won't be PvE viable (e.g. current Rogue Shadowstep build) but competition for dps is going to be tight so there is cause for concern.
As a long-time surv hunter I'm not happy about the way it looks for us (and EW changes) but I'm willing to go with the flow & see what happens. The increases in stats on everything that will come with WotLK means LR will be worth a lot though this will undoubtedly be countered by everything else going up (boss HP, agi/crit ratio etc.) But who knows what we'll see.
Back in vanilla WoW MM was the spec for raiding until you hit about 380 agi then 5/5 LR was better (thanks to the ol' 1 agi = 2ap). BM was for farming... just farming.
BC came along and BM became the raiding spec with 1 SV to buff the raid (and do competitive but lower dps). MM was mostly a PvE spec (though oddly good for farming/solo thanks to the TSA buffing growl so much).
WotLK will come along and the specs might swap their roles, the raids might look a little different but there will still be a place for hunters, it looks like SV & BM at the moment still but who can tell yet?
Personally I'm looking forawrd to a whole new way to play and new things to take on board... all the talk of rotations and haste thresholds and server-side spell queues was getting a bit stale. It's time for us to be dealt something different and deal with it in the same ingenuitive way we always have. (I just hope we do end up with at least 2 viable raiding specs, I want to stay Surv if possible).
Even if it has a duration, there's no reason to think it won't be refreshed, which is certainly better than letting the buff drop off (and indeed, one of the key things SV hunters did to gear themselves was to ensure that EW rarely if ever fell off). In order for there to be no difference at all, the duration would have to be long enough that a 20% proc rate would keep it up perpetually, which seems unlikely. Moreover (and this is the more important part) the buff doesn't necessarily hit the same people each time. The first time it procs, it hits 10 people with the lowest mana, and by the time the second one procs there could be a different set of affected targets, even if the first buff is still ticking.
It's ability to refresh may or may not be useful. It depends entirely on the duration. However, your point about it going up on different people each proc is probably valid. Obviously it won't help in 5/10 mans (and a lot of its benefit will be wasted very likely), but it may help it be useful in 25mans. We'll have to wait and see what the duration is and how often it procs at 35% (probably the minimum for a SV hunter) and 60% (near maxish assuming you don't stack crit).
SV don't gear to keep EW from falling off; they gear to maximum the amount of AP it provides. In fact, it falls off so rarely that some hunters only put 2 of 3 points into it.
Originally Posted by TrevvyTrev
Saying they are providing "exactly the same buffs to each class" is a pretty huge exaggeration. Ret paladins and hunters don't provide the same buffs. They overlap with BM hunters in one area, and SV hunters in another, but that's it. Shadow priests don't provide the same buffs as hunters. SV hunters can CC *much* better than either a ret paladin or shadow priest (or even other hunters), so there's no overlap there. Before you say, "but traps are useless in raids," keep in mind that you're thinking of the status quo. There's nothing saying they can't design encounters that focus more on opportunities for hunters to use all their abilities instead of being there just to proc a buff for the melees, but even still, we did roll a (mostly) pure dps class. There's no reason to expect that SV hunters won't be valued simply because they are a high-dps class (at least higher than ret paladins and shadow priests, given that the designers said they intend to balance dps in light of class/spec utility).
I was referring to the mana battery buff, in particular. Obviously, different classes bring other, different abilities to the table (we'll ignore that they just removed one of the buffs that hunters currently bring to the raid). The mana battery buff, though, appears to be exactly the same between the three different classes... and that annoys me. I like uniqueness.. with balance.
You mention traps, and I think they're a prime example. Traps, sheep, banish, fear, etc are each unique CC abilities that are (in theory) balanced in power. They each have their own positives and negatives. That's exactly the type of thing I'd like to see. What they did with the mana battery ability is, in effect, to say "ok, you all just get sheep now (because we can't figure out how to balance it otherwise)". It's boring... and disappointing.
And if I didn't say it clearly enough, rogues and any other class that feels they don't currently bring enough synergy to the raid will get be getting new or modified abilities to fill that role. The idea is to back down a little from: I have crazy buffs but that's really it, or I have mad dps, but that's pretty much it.
This is great, provided I am not sharing that buffing capabilty with another class or 2.
(Been a while since I posted here, looking to get back into WoW with WotLK)
In regards to the Expose Weakness change, I was wondering if this was done in order to give other specs more utility. Trueshot was always a very lackluster talent, because of the lack of scaling, and limit to party only. To give SV hunters both a crazy AP raid buff in EW, and a nice mana battery with Hunter Party really kinda kills the utility for other classes. Not to mention that one can take both Trueshot and EW at level 80, which would have given back an easy 800AP+ to the entire raid.
Aspect of the Viper has been changed and is now a level 20 ability
The hunter takes on the aspect of the viper, instantly regenerating mana equal to 100% of the damage done by any ranged attack or ability, but reduces your total damage done by 50%. Only one Aspect can be active at a time.
[edit]
Survival Tactics (Hunter SV) Now reduces resists for both FD AND Traps.
Trap Mastery (Hunter SV) Now does a whole lot of crap for 1 point.
Lock and Load (Hunter SV) Has had its chance to proc from Stings reduced back to 5/10/15
Imp Hunter's Mark (Hunter MM) increases AP bonus by 10/20/30% and reduces mana cost by 33/66/100%
Imp Arcane Shot (Hunter MM) increase Arcane shot damage by 5/10/15%
Trueshot Arua (Hunter MM) now increase AP of raid by 10%
Aspect Master (Hunter BM) now reduces the damage penalty of Aspect of the Viper by 10%
Separation Anxiety increased to 20% pet damage
Hunting Party is only mana now.
I wonder if Separation Anxiety is now better than Improved Tracking
Hmm, when did Deterrence disappear? If it's been gone for a while, guess I just noticed now! I assume Blizzard thinks we now have enough close-range tools we no longer need Deterrence, but I will miss using it to tank bosses (now we have to do a bunch of things, e.g., Intervene etc., which will be more challenging but not quite as much fun.)
*edit* Deterrence isn't in the latest mmo-champion.com spell list for survival hunters, though it is listed as a level 60 spell in wotlk.wowhead.com. If you're in the beta, could you confirm one way or the other for build 8885?
EW giving 25% of your agi as a RAP buff works out to about a 3-4% dps increase, not bad at all for a single talent point.
If pets do 30% or better of total hunter damage for BM hunters as seems likely, separation anxiety would be better than imp tracking as long as a few things are true:
encounters allow the pet to be alive and attacking for the majority of the fight
Its possible to take advantage of all the new raid wide buffs while 20+ yards away from the pet
20% of 30% total would be 6% more overall damage, better than 5% from imp tracking if the above can be consistently met.
Also, the flat 20% modifier makes frenzy and other stacking buffs more potent (heroism+BW for instance)
My problem is imp arcane shot, you have to get those 3 points somewhere; and if BM hunters end up using it routinely as blizzard seems to want, 15% would be pretty beguiling.
Although it loses raid utility the EW change isn't entirely bad. I always hated that is was a debuff since it doesn't benefit from any AP modifier. Survival Instincts increases the value by 4% and now TSA by an additional 10%. Perhaps a tad on the optimistic side, but it isn't a 100% nerf.
Can anyone here confirm or deny that rouges can now dispell TBW? If so, so much for "While enraged, you do not feel pity or remorse or fear and you cannot be stopped unless killed."
08/29/08, 4:12 AM
Hunting Party isn't a raid-wide aura at all. It still requires a crit with certain abilities to proc. So now when you buff yourself with *crit*, either through agility or through crit rating, you are not only buffing your own dps, but you are buffing "the whole raid, just a little." A Surv hunter with 50% crit will bring more to the raid than one with 20% crit would (not like there are many 20% crit SV hunters, but still). That may be different for shadow priests, as I'm not sure what they could do to increase the chances of a proc, but they still may be called upon for whatever utility they can bring from discipline spells, and in any event that's probably best left to another thread about priests.
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