Cranch

By the way, when L&L procs and you shoot off 3 explosive shots, do the DoT's stack (i.e., you get 9 ticks), or do they just extend the existing DoT (i.e., you get 5 ticks) ?

 

Osse

Was a bit confused first as you were talking about rep ring. Forgot that I haven't updated the profile for the character I'm playing currently.

Will play around with the wotlk spreadsheet.

 

Shandara

From what I've heard if you fire another Explosive Shot before all the ticks have done damage, you waste them since it'll refresh. So it either means waiting in between each shot or using Steady Shot in between each shot as a filler.

WotLK Hunter DPS Spreadsheet

 

WarTotem

2 / 1.25 = 1.6 draw speed, not 1.5

Using the correct number (4/3 rather then 1.25) and going back up your math gives;

total haste / quiver = other haste needed.
4/3 / 1.15 = 1,1594...

Which results in 254 Haste rating needed.
Note that the base WF haste is 16%, which is just enough for us. That means a second caster Shaman in the raid will suffice for our Steady Shot needs.

Beware of the napking!!

 

Cranch

OK, thanks. Maybe Blizzard will allow them to stack, thereby increasing survival dps somewhat so it's more competitive with BM/Marks...

 

takel

You mean a 60% RAP coefficent shot that bypasses armour and has 15% more crit via talents isn't enough?
From current numbers, Explosive shot hits the primary target three times for the primary damage, which has 20% RAP tacked onto it.

The secondary effect takes place over 2 seconds from point of impact. Your GCD is 1.5 seconds. Hold off for half a second before you fire the second shot and you won't overlap.

 

Cranch

*edit* Right -- I misread the tooltip over and over again. ES is good, L&L is good, survival will be lots of fun.

 

Catalept

ES only takes two seconds to exhaust itself, so the best response is ES, AS, ES, AS, ES... that's a pretty solid chunk of burst damage, and it's all instant, so this can be done on the move. With the +15% crit chance, and 100% proc off (some) traps with a chance to stun... combined with the new Camo, the Trap + LnL combo bears a striking resemblance to the rogue's potential for huge opening damage.

 

• Intermission

Takel's last paragraph describes exactly how it works, and you quoted it.


0:00 impact
1:00 first tick
2:00 second tick

So you wait 0.5 seconds between shooting if you want to use 3-4 Explosive Shots without loosing the last tick of each.

 

◊ Lactose

You're misreading something: Explosive Shot - Spell - World of Warcraft

You fire an explosive charge into the target, dealing x Fire damage to the enemy target, and an additional y Fire damage to all enemies within 5 yards of the target every second for 2 sec.

0.0 Shot hits connects to target, deals damage.
1.0 Deals damage.
2.0 Deals damage, debuff fades.

Edit: Beaten by a couple of seconds.

Changing to a different topic for a while:
Has there been any testing on Improved Tracking and what kind of tracking the damage bonus applies to?
I remember seeing a post indicating it did not affect things tracked solely by Hunter's Mark, has anyone else verified this?
Similarily, has there been any testing on tracking from other sources than our tracking spells? Looking at various sites, I see some food now give well fed boosts which are tracking related. There are also certain items or consumables which allow you to track creature types - has any testing been done regarding this?

Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max

 

KraxisSingular

It certainly looks evil for PvP. And lets just add in Sniper Training and Point of No Escape and the potential is rather solid. There is even a finisher in Kill Shot. While not really a superb finisher due to the stun, the bonus from Sniper Training (which was why I mentioned it) could be enough to make it worth the risks against an enemy that is already severely depleted by several hard hitting instant shots. I mean first ES does 50% more damage out of Camo. Ouch.
But I have to ask how do you get five specials from the LnL proc? Wouldn't it be ES-AS-ES and resuming normal fire? Or perhaps ES-AS-ES-AS since it resets three times (or maybe I'm completely off tangent here).

 

Catalept

Good point... I forgot that ES shares its cooldown with AS. /doh. However, none of the first 3 shots cause a cooldown, so it'd be

ES-AS-ES (wait 0.5 seconds) ES, or if you're feeling patient, ES... ES... ES... ES. The latter is probably the best option for pure DPS output, but requires precise timing.

 

Cranch

So you have SS up on the mob, you note L&L procs, and in 6 seconds you do the following (assuming 2.0 speed for autoshot and my gear at level 80; your numbers will vary)

The next SS tick should finish him off if the KS goes off at exactly 20%. (Yes, I know the SS ticks aren't 1 second apart; I'm just listing their average damage.)

 

KraxisSingular

Interesting... And with players being reported at 19k or so it might fit very well (we have to assume good PvP gear will have more than 19k). But any healing will kill this burst and it might have to be kep up with a Multi and Steady before the healing is overwhelmed.

But you should also consider the Camo bonus for the first shot. I wonder if that would apply to the entire damage of ES, or only the first big tick. I think something like stings would definately apply for the duration, but ES doesn' appear to be a simple DoT. Oh well I guess it is easiest and most logical to assume it will just give 50% for the duration.

 

Aym

For PvE i figured i would do something like this when LnL procs:

Steady > Es > Steady > Es > Steady > Es > Steady > Es, and then return to normal rotation. Naturally, you couldnt do this in PvP which is why you use an arcane shot instead, but it should pump the damage a lot on PvE. The amounts of damage is staggering.

 

Shandara

It's probably more optimal to wait for the 3rd ES tick instead of putting a Steady Shot in between.

The way I understand it, the CD starts ticking again after you use the last free Explosive Shot. Thus, by using Steady Shot in between you delay your next non-free Explosive Shot. By waiting 0.5 seconds until the last tick has done damage you replace at most 1 steady worth of damage and since Explosive Shot does a lot more damage than Steady Shot...

WotLK Hunter DPS Spreadsheet

 

WarTotem

Well let's see ....

1: ES - SS - ES - SS - ES - SS - (ES)
vs
2: ES - .5 - ES - .5 - ES - .5 - (ES)

Since the last ES is just the start of a new cycle, we exclude that one, as it will always get it's full damage done.

Cycle 1:
Time: 9 seconds.
Total damage done: 3x ES_dmg + 3x SS_dmg = 3x ES_base + 3x60% AP + 3x SS_base + 3x20% AP =
3x ES_base + 3x SS_base + 240% AP

Cycle 2:
Time: 6 seconds:
Total damage done: 3x ES_dmg = 3x ES_base + 3x60% AP

To know which cycle is the best we simply try to find a turning point:
3x ES_base + 3x SS_base + 240% AP = 9s/6s * (3x ES_base + 180% AP)
3x SS_base + 240% AP = 1.5x ES_base + 270% AP
3x SS_base = 1.5x ES_base + 30% AP

The ES_base here is 1140, which means the SS_base would require 570 +10% AP, which is rather a lot, isn't it? (with 4k AP that's weapon+ammo damage of 700 or 250 DPS, currently impossible to get even with KJ bow + epic ammo)
And here I was hoping I never had to time my shots again as Survival .... Ah well, guess Logitech is going to sell a few extra G15s this winter.


[E] Math fix
PS: I also excluded the fact Steady is affected by Armor and Explosive Shot gets dmg buffs on the target.

Beware of the napking!!

 

sjogren

Shouldn't that be comparing SS_base to ES_base/2 + 10% AP? Assuming ~4000 AP, we'd end up with SS_base around ~1000. After armor reduction, of course, so still sounds a lot, though I have no idea what kind of dps weapons and ammo have at level 80.

 

Bullshot

Has EW already been made self-only on the beta realms? And if it has, can someone check if having multiple survival hunters in a group will not overwrite the previously present EW from the mob?

 

Kredon

Acutally I'm note sure if those sequences can be compared like this. If the ES-only version is just extended in time (6->9s) it seems like there would be another ES, which can't be due to its CD.

If timed very precisely the sum of the waiting parts is 1.5s, which mets the cast time of a steady shoot (when having enough haste). After both variants the rotation would continue similarly.
Subsequently there would be 3 SS and 3 ES in the first rotation and 2 SS and 3 ES in those 9 seconds. The actual advantage of the ES-only version would be that at the end there's only a 3 second CD left on ES, while on the mixed version a full 6 second CD would remain.

So in my opintion it is much easyier to compare by just saying is half ES damage (due to the CD) more or less than one SS.

This does not include delays when waiting for the 0.5s.

 

Gleithan

It isn't a debuff anymore, it is a self buff (i.e. it shows up next to aspect of the hawk, etc.). So multiple survival hunters shouldn't be a problem, unless something is bugged.

As an aside, I just tried survival for the first time in my wow career and it is insane. Equal level mobs drop from one explosive shot and a couple autos, and one of the ticks usually crit and give you the mana replenishment buff, so mana is essentially never an issue. On non-elites, if you get a LnL proc the mob will die before you can use up the buff. The only trouble is, my pet has no chance of holding aggro. I've tried both ferocity and cunning pets and I pull aggro whenever ES crits, which is a lot. I need to get a tenacity pet to make soloing a bit easier (the only one in my stables is a worm left over from being BM).

 

Catalept

Wait what? So ES crits are triggering HP now? What about EW and TotH?

 

Kajsa

Yes, I beleive hunting party procs off explosive, but he probably meant thrill of the hunt, not hunting party.

 

Gleithan

Yes, check out the description of the talent at MMO-Champion: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?hunter. I'm not sure if they trigger EW or ToTH, but I believe so. I have ~30% crit, and with TNT maxed out that is another 15% crit for ES. I haven't figured out if the ticks of ES can trigger replenishment, but I think they do. If they do, and the crit at the same rate as ES itself, replenishment will be up nearly every fight. I've haven't done any indepth Dr. Boom studies or anything, but while leveling in Borean Tundra the replenishment buff is up nearly every fight, so I think this is the case. It seems like 5/5 hunting party might be unnecessary, one could probably get away with 4/5 or maybe less.

With my gear (T4ish), replenishment is +33 mana every second for (I think) 15 seconds. Given that equal level mobs are dropping with a serpent sting, and ES and a couple autoshots, this is enough mana (along with ToTH) to make me never switch to viper while questing. Doing some hard core grinding might be different, and I have yet to run a dungeon as survival.

 

WarTotem

I don't get what you're tring to say. The 9 seconds vs 6 seconds is to compare overall DPS gains from using Steady in between every Explosive or not. I'll see if I have time tomorrow to compare the damage gain in the long cycle vs 3 seconds of normal DPS.

Beware of the napking!!