Trifle

Maybe, but I'd much rather 1 point in mobility than 1 point in boar's speed !

 

Gokey

I have interesting question for someone in the beta to test out:

Does the new pet ability 'Taunt' in the Tenacity Tree (Taunt - Spell - World of Warcraft) work on players?

 

Gearknight

Why would you expect it to work any differently than warrior taunt? It even has the same icon.

 

Garf

I believe that won't work, at least for some things.

In fact, I have a hard time imagining how abilities such as Intervene (40 focus) or Last Stand can be used reasonably without resorting to manual focus management. It's an ability that you want to be able to use quickly, but at not necessarily predictable times.

That sounds a lot like playing a feral druid or a rogue in addition to the hunter. On the other hand, I can't think of a way how invervene could be on "autocast".

Maybe these need to not have a focus requirement...

 

KergeKacsa

What about Lurker's Spout? Our pet would be knocked away? In this case that would be good if our pet would get a better route-finding mechanism... :/

 

Æthien

Jup, I can see that happening already.
You're leveling happily in WotLK, you encounter some kind of keep/encampment/whatever and the mobs there have a knockback.
They bump your pet back 2 feet, only for it to find a path that leads through the entire camp pulling a dozen adds to walk those 2 feet back again because of some random pathing glitch.

 

Tyranna

Hmm. I'm finding it strange that Marskmanship, the currently most mana intensive spec, seems to be the odd man out without a mana returning talent. I'm purposefully discounting Chimera sting as a mana return. Did I miss it somewhere?

 

Disargeria

It seems that most raiding specs have a mana return component. I think the cost of abilities is going up across the board, but in a raid setting, you'll have a lot of mana regen from the plethora of classes/specs that return mana to their groups/raid. I don't think it affects 5 mans much, since there's plenty of breaks and much shorter boss fights, but I'm wondering how this affects PvP across the board.

 

Redzin

It could very well make drain teams more effective, thus making MM hunter teams more effective. Especially seeing that Viper Sting is getting more than doubled as well (mana pools probably won't be doubled, not for quite a while at least).

And could any of those in the beta confirm the Camouflage skill please? It's not really mentioned anywhere else than the WotLK wiki. I really hope it's there though, it's very very nice. ^^

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad.

 

Sean

Confirming that Trueshot Aura does *not* work raidwide - it's still group only.

And as for Camo - it's not on any trainer. Neither are Kill Shot nor Bear Trap. They're in and referenced in talents, but not actually on trainers yet.

 

Redzin

Afaik totems aren't raid-wide yet either, so it's a bit too early to conclude anything about TSA imo.

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad.

 

Sean

Sure, but they never said anything about TSA and Totems not working are kind of irrelevant to that. More on target would be "are Paladin auras working raid wide?".

 

Trogdor

Mana return serves to feed into more shots for a continual stream of damage. What you're overlooking is the alternate route of damage dealt for deep marks. Marks deals most damage by hitting hard, SV by critting lots, and BM by sheer pet+owner persistence.

Wild Quiver: Free damage. Increase your hasted state to a greater degree with greater frequency, get more free shots. Should be fun with 5/5 Imp. Hawk.

Improved Steady Shot: Use some static values and do some simple number crunching to determine the damage-per-mana for arcane, steady, and kill shots. Kill shot is very likely to be a basic staple of lvl80 hunter rotations and only gets better when the target is under 20%. The value of the increased amount of damage for less amount of mana (even when it's averaged out on a per-minute basis) contributes to more "free" damage, in the sense less was spent to get more.

Rapid Recuperation: How many free-cost shots can you squeeze out in 15s, every 3 mins?


So on top of the talents to increase the overall striking power, deep marks gets: bonus autoshots (slightly less damage yet free), periodic boosted kill-shot damage with a lower cost, and free shots for 15s every 3 mins. I am sure that if you theorycraft a 10-minute fight with "perfect" conditions and see how long it takes to go OOM and measure the damage output, it should be on par with similarly-geared deep-spec SV or BM. Sure, maybe deep marks doesn't provide as much group synergy as BM or SV do, but I think it's self-valued in an egotistical way.

Oh and 5/5 efficiency is still completely available, even if the other deep specs might still have some access to it (depending).

 

Sean

Wild Quiver does not appear to be working currently, by the way.

 

Zerlu

I big question I have is whether or not Potent Venom will be as effective as Blizzard so obviously intends it.

Assuming PV IS working as intended(not in the sarcastic way, either) then I will be running this spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Skipping Careful aim here is somewhat of a gamble. The idea being that Hunting Party and Thrill of the Hunt will keep the Hunter full of mana and allow them to pick up some, presumably, more agility intensive leather pieces.

Of course, if either A) Leather gear isn't superior to hunter agility wise, or B) PV turns out to be a completel joke, then it looks like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft will be the ideal SV hunter raid spec.

Interesting, it almost seems like it would be best for MM hunters to pick up the Imp. Hunter's Mark rather than force a BM or SV hunter to grab it.

The best I could do for a raiding MM hunter would be Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft. As has been mentioned previously however, it remains to be seen whether or not Efficiency, Rapid Recuperation, and Improved Steady Shot will be enough to keep a MM hunter topped off mana wise.



NOTE: Both survival specs listed I have 2pts in Trap Mastery. I meant that to be 1/1 and for Survivalist to be 5/5.

 

Redzin

I have this feeling that Blizzard intend us to use our Stings more, looking at both Potent Venom and Chimera Shot.

Depending if our stings are gonna be part of a standard rotation or not I might go something like this (for Surv Raiding):
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

30% extra dmg and 30% less mana cost on Serpent Sting and 3% extra dmg on all shots while it's up? We'll have to wait and see if that's worth it... if not then I'd probably go something like this:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad.

 

Trogdor

3000 RAP, 1000 min/max paperdoll weapon damage (just to simplify, ignoring ammo bonus), and 5/5 Mortal Shots (so arcane crit is damage is *2.30, other crit is damage *1.80 ), to determine damage per point of mana spent:

Arcane Shot R11: 1.74 norm / 4.01 crit
Kill Shot R1 (over 20%): 3.73 norm / 6.72 crit
Kill Shot R1 (under 20%): 5.42 norm / 9.75 crit
Explosive Shot R1 (single target): 5.44 / variable crits
Multi Shot R8 (3 targets): 6.03 norm / variable crits
Steady Shot R3: 6.71 norm / 12.08 crit

Serpent Sting R12 (no talents): 2.2 norm / doesn't crit
Serpent Sting R12 (3/3 Potent Venom, including 3% damage in calc): 3.26 norm / doesn't crit


Of course, once we factor in bigger and better weapons, the damage per mana for shots deriving from base weapon damage will increase in a positive way. But just staring at this snapshot, the points in Potent Venom put serpent sting almost on par with Kill Shot. As we get better gear, the damage done by the sting itself may pale but the damage from all other sources will increase 3%.


Question one is: Could the placement of 3 points from PV to some other talent AND the mana used for one serpent sting application generate more overall damage than a 3% increase to all outgoing shots in a 15-second interval?

Question two is: Am I going to do more damage with 4 points into MT (skipping Wyvvern and PV) to bump to the next tier of talents?


Personally, I never liked MT. If end-game WotLK is similar (but just on a grander scale) than now, I'll still be hitting ~50% raid-buffed crit, so doing the resulting math makes me yawn over MT. Granted, serpent sting can be partially/fully resisted.. but like arcane shot, it's not too bad against heavily-armored or nature-vulnerable foes. I see PV giving SS a new use.. maybe Chimera Shot too (limited choice, I guess), but other than that SS w/o PV is virtually the same as it always has been.

 

Kigale

Any word on whether the debuff limit will be increased? As it stands now there isn't any room for Stings, making Chimera Shot and Potent Venom useless.

 

Zerlu

From the numbers you posted above it appears that SS will still be weak with PV, however it wont be so weak as to make the talent useless. The +3%damage to shots should more than make up the loss of the GCD it takes to cast it. Also need to take into account how many AUTO shots would be effected during the 15s duration.

 

Bynn

Did anyone with beta access test to see if Chimera shot only consumes your stings or is it any sting as that could potentially add to its usefulness via potent venom builds assuming you could cunsume it at the last possible moment before a reapplication. If it does consume stings other than your own then there is a priority system that we should try to figure out as well.

 

Sean

Wolverine Bite:

I went and talented up my Wind Serpent so she'd have it. Well... it doesn't suck. When I checked it out in my pet's spell book, it read 355 damage.

So yeah, the 5 damage in the talent tree window is just for it being absolutely unmodified by anything.

 

Ruind

The pet changes seem nice, but I can also see them becoming a headache in a raiding environment to some extent. It would be nice to have a pet with each tallent tree available. If you get thrown in the tank group for the night because that provides the best synergy, or someone has to leave anyou get put in X group. Having a different pet may provide better synergy. The downfall of this is that to get that you have to go to the stable to pull a new pet out, any news or feed back on not making trips to the stable in order to change pets?

 

Tyranna

I understand that the different specs do damage differently, but that's not really what i'm most concerned about. The reason that BM is currently superior to MM for raiding is not only higher damage output, but also better mana efficiency and longevity. While MM hunters have to fit high cost shots like arcane and multi to fill the auto-shot gaps, BM does not. That leads to a much longer time till OOM. I think this part is important. The faster I go low on mana, the faster I have to switch from Hawk to Viper. The longer I stay in Viper, the more DPS potential I lose.

I should also note that from what I've seen, Improved Steady Shot only has a 15% proc rate and the mana reduction to other shots only applies when ISS procs. As well as 3/3 Rapid Recuperation is listed as 60% mana cost reduction according to Wowhead, not 100%.

 

Sharizad_Jabari

Has anybody thought of Chimera AS the Mark's trees PvE Mana regen ability? Little post I worked up for my guild's hunters earlier today:


Was thinking some more about this shot today and I kinda shared some of my ideas about it with XXXX earlier.

Im thinking the PvE potential of this shot is gonna be enormous. How you ask? Allow me to school you!

Currently the highest ranked viper sting drains 3092 mana at a cost of 610 to you. Ok...
Talented its bumped to 4019 at a cost of 549. (Efficiency and Improved Stings) Ok...

This is where it gets interesting. Viper a boss with a mana bar. Allow it 4 ticks or 12 seconds. (803/per... 3215 total) [Viper is a 15 second sting]
Ok now hit it with Chimera (486 mana)....Follow me?...no??

Ok thats 3215 mana returned at a cost of 972....so 2243 mana back over the course of 12 seconds....that's 934mp5

That's 934mp5.......

Ok again..... 934mp5!!! And vipers on a 15sec cool down. Chimera a 10. Means you can do this whenever you damn well want too.

Means you'll never have to drop down to Aspect of the Viper. Prolly also means you can chug whatever new dmg increasing pots they give us in the xpac instead of mana pots. THAT, my friends, is what makes this new talent amazing. (Assuming they allow us to viper bosses)

 

Kelidor

I think you misunderstood something about the exact way Chimera Shot actually works.

Chimera Shot's power is based on the total capacity of the sting and works like Swiftmend ( eats the sting no matter how long it was up )

This is where you were wrong, the sting did drain 3215 and then you use Chimera Shot, but you will only gain the 30% of Viper Sting's total mana burn capacity. In other words, you will only ''drain'' 30% of 4019 by using Chimera Shot at any possible time.

You will drain 1205 mana, but will have used 486 ( Chimera Shot ) and 549 ( Viper Sting ) = 1035

1205 - 1035 = 170 mana. You won 170 mana.

Edit : Thanks Sean for your testing