Well, now I'd be hard pressed to say flare is even a useful mechanic against rogues at all. It represents virtually no danger to them anymore, and Flare + Trap camping was more or less our only defence and deterrence against a stealthed rogue ambush. Now it's boiled down to a way to check if that stealth noise we heard for a moment is a rogue or druid. If the trap we set gets disarmed, guess who we can't use traps on for a another 30 seconds.
It's not like I want rogues to be completely helpless when presented with a hunter, but it's hard for me not to be a little incensed about the current state of traps. Even worse is the state of flare in a reactive roll.
Hunters did get several PvP buffs, after all; perhaps they will be enough to compensate.
If it turns out that rogues are hideously overpowered versus hunters in a 1-1 fight, perhaps this will motivate Blizzard to make traps drop and activate instantly.
I wouldn't panic -- we will have the 3.0 patch beta on PTR to try this out, as well as the actual LK patch, and the nerf/de-nerf patches that will follow.
Arcane shot does not currently share cooldown with Chimera Shot. I do believe seeing a blue post somewhere back that it is supposed to share cooldown, however.
Chimera Shot does not, at this time, share a cooldown with any other ability. As for the above quote, I believe you are assuming that because blue has stated
We'll be doing some improvements to Chimera Shot. We'll experiement with it refreshing the duration of the sting instead of consuming, and adding some base damage to the shot as well. It should act as an Arcane Shot replacement, doing significantly more damage (especially if serpent sting is on the target).
I going to point out that "replacement" is not the same as "shares cooldown" though they are often used interchangably causing confussion between the two. Replacement mearly means that one ability/skill is so much better than a second skill that it isn't worth using the second skill in a dps rotation. One example of this (though imperfect due too their sharing of the GCD) is Mangle (Cat) and Claw. I'd also like to point out that abilities that do not have the same cooldown lengths rarely share cooldowns (Chimera = 10 sec, Arcane = 6 sec). Before the latest changes to Improved Arcane Shot, I would have said that Arcane shot would rarely, if ever, have been used by a MM hunter; Now however, with the talent increasing Arcane Shot damage by upto 15%, I can see MM hunters using Arcane Shot any time it is up unless Chimera Shot is also up.
Hunters did get several PvP buffs, after all; perhaps they will be enough to compensate.
If it turns out that rogues are hideously overpowered versus hunters in a 1-1 fight, perhaps this will motivate Blizzard to make traps drop and activate instantly.
I wouldn't panic -- we will have the 3.0 patch beta on PTR to try this out, as well as the actual LK patch, and the nerf/de-nerf patches that will follow.
I wouldn't even try to argue against the fact that we got several nice buffs, but traps are just becoming more and more frustrating and unfun, just like my fights against rogues. The rogue problems may be a personal shortcoming, I honestly get slaughtered whenever one is attacking me rather than someone else in live.
I'd like to see the opinions of beta testers who've fought some rogues with this change in place before I get up in arms myself, but I'm honestly not harboring any optimism.
I'm not in a panic like most of the people on the beta forums, but I'm still put off by the way things are. Regardless, those panicked people are usually how Blizzard tells they made a decision they might want to reexamine the first chance they get.
When fighting a rogue, how many of you honestly sit there on top of your flare with a freezing trap?
Track hidden already gives us a chance to deny them an opener (which just happens to be subtlety "pvp spec"'s biggest strength). Dropping a frost trap mid combat would probably work better, if they vanish to disarm it, they lose time, and you could flare/volley them out easily enough (remember wotlk volly is getting buffed). If they notice it and avoid it, you've got some distance you didn't have previously.
And in the end, you've always got everyone's favorite scatter shot into a freezing trap anyway.
1v1 in general is completely spec dependent, as well as which class/spec you are fighting. A BM hunter in Arena gear could make short work of a Combat Rogue in PvE gear, for example.
It's called Bloodlust, not Heroism. What kind of pansy name is Heroism, anyway?
<Bad> Dragonmaw US www.damnwesuck.com
12/13 [25] Heroic - Recruiting exceptional players.
When fighting a rogue, how many of you honestly sit there on top of your flare with a freezing trap?
Track hidden already gives us a chance to deny them an opener (which just happens to be subtlety "pvp spec"'s biggest strength). Dropping a frost trap mid combat would probably work better, if they vanish to disarm it, they lose time, and you could flare/volley them out easily enough (remember wotlk volly is getting buffed). If they notice it and avoid it, you've got some distance you didn't have previously.
And in the end, you've always got everyone's favorite scatter shot into a freezing trap anyway.
1v1 in general is completely spec dependent, as well as which class/spec you are fighting. A BM hunter in Arena gear could make short work of a Combat Rogue in PvE gear, for example.
That isn't the point, Mako. With the changes made (way back when) to their Sap range (which is a T2 ability), they can already sap you outside of Flare range. And with the changes made to Detect Traps (way back when), they can already see your traps at the same range that we see people on track. With the combination of both of these with the addition of the 20 yard disarm trap range, the whole concept of pre-trapping goes out the window when facing a Rogue or a team with a Rogue/multiple Rogues. Detect Hidden, while beneficial, is largely not enough of a benefit. And a 30s cool down on traps, as they're currently designed, does nothing to fix the current problems and Resourcefullness, in its current form, is too little to combat this.
My guess is, and this is only a hunch, that they're trying to make it so that all three specs are equally capable in PvP. By increasing the range on Disarm, they now making it easier for Combat and Assassination Rogues to get off their opener. Combine that with the fact that we've been given Master's Call and Deterrance as base abilities plus the changes to Disengage, they probably think that, for now, the 1v1 confrontation is acceptable. Of course, there is a big difference between what a designer thinks and what players see in the game. But it is up to you all in Beta to convey those problems.
I think that they're probably going to have to redesign traps in some fashion in order to balance this out.
I mean currently they're about as effective as harsh words at helping us survive longer than 5 seconds when dealing with a Rogue. Quite frankly, I think they HAVE to redesign traps in light of this change, even WITH the MC/Deterrence/Disengage changes, because even WITH those the Rogues still have things like Dismantle (aka "No Wing Clips u die now lol"), Crippling (which doesn't require a GCD to apply, and is 20% stronger than Wing Clip (which is now 50%) for no reason, to boot), to say nothing of just being able to ShS over the trap, or things like Shadowdance, etc., to say nothing of the longer cooldown stuff like Sprint/Vanish.
I'm pretty sure that even with the current Hunter changes, a properly (PvP) specced Rogue will still be able to dominate a Hunter in everything short of, maybe, the 5s bracket. 2s or 3s vs. a team with a Rogue, on the other hand, feels like it's a giant "Hunters are doomed" comp, and that doesn't appear to be changing.
Blizzard has stated that they're looking to rework traps, and this might just be indicative of further changes to them, but I honestly thing it's too good and will simply completely negate them unless they're COMPLETELY reworked to be more effective and reliable. As it is, Rogues have almost all the advantages against us, and they're one of the most popular Arena classes. The math is pretty simple in this regard: If we perform poorly against Rogues, we perform poorly against a lot of the popular comps; this is especially notable in 2s and 3s, where we currently suffer the most. (Admittedly, there are OTHER issues outside of just Rogues that are causing the abysmal Hunter Arena representation, but you really cannot discount the whole "Rogues = Popular Arena Class = Hunters at a severe disadvantage" equation.)
Beta is the time to be bringing these concerns to light, and, given the responses we've gotten thus far in the beta, I don't think it's out of the question for an acceptable solution (for both parties) to be found for them.
How can you help?
I can shoot things and then make my pet move toward them.
What do you guys think of a potential 0/40/30 build I don't know where id put that last point. Basically taking every passive % multipiler forgoing all the active talents?
Does Chimaera Shot's sting reapplication count as stinging a target for purposes of proccing Lock 'n' Load? I'm considering level 80 specs, where having both are possible. Triple Arcane Shot sounds reasonable, even though the talent is clearly made to shine in combination with Explosive Shot.
I'm guessing the answer is no, but I'd just thought I'd put it out there :-)
Speaking of which, assume your ES/AS is on CD already, you sting and prock LnL. I understand that the subsequent 3 ES/AS will not induce a CD but you do have to wait for the previously-induced CD to finish, right? If so, how long will the LnL buff stick around before self-cancelling?
Because if it only sticks around for the usual 10sec, by the time your chimera proced it (if it procs it, which I doubt. It doesn't even work correctly with the sting glyph) the buff would run out before you could use it.
Speaking of which, assume your ES/AS is on CD already, you sting and prock LnL. I understand that the subsequent 3 ES/AS will not induce a CD but you do have to wait for the previously-induced CD to finish, right? If so, how long will the LnL buff stick around before self-cancelling?
Because if it only sticks around for the usual 10sec, by the time your chimera proced it (if it procs it, which I doubt. It doesn't even work correctly with the sting glyph) the buff would run out before you could use it.
Uh, if the LnL buff you get from chimera lasts 10 seconds, how could arcane shot possibly not come off CD (6 seconds) in that time?
Originally Posted by PSGarak
Personally I am not considering any spec without Corpse Explosion, because Corpse Explosion is the best spell in the game in any game that has a spell named Corpse Explosion.
Is anyone else concerned about the interactions of LnL and Explosive Shot making raid dps extremely variable? When LnL procs, the damage done via Explosive Shot spam is extremely good. When it doesn't, survival DPS is massively lower.
So since in a raid we'll be depending on Serpent Sting to proc LnL, I can see huge week-to-week differences on a Brut type fight depending on how lucky you are with LnL. That doesn't seem very fun.
In general I myself stinging everything and praying for LnL to proc, not a very fun way to play. Maybe increase the proc rate of LnL on stings, but give it an internal cooldown to balance it out more? A little more consistency would go a long way.
Is anyone else concerned about the interactions of LnL and Explosive Shot making raid dps extremely variable? When LnL procs, the damage done via Explosive Shot spam is extremely good. When it doesn't, survival DPS is massively lower.
So since in a raid we'll be depending on Serpent Sting to proc LnL, I can see huge week-to-week differences on a Brut type fight depending on how lucky you are with LnL. That doesn't seem very fun.
In general I myself stinging everything and praying for LnL to proc, not a very fun way to play. Maybe increase the proc rate of LnL on stings, but give it an internal cooldown to balance it out more? A little more consistency would go a long way.
From playing around with my survival build on beta, I find that lock and load works best with explosive shot when you have a pack of things held down by a tank and then unloading three explosive shots into three different mobs in the pack. This way the shot is exploding for max on 3 mobs as well as doing secondary damage to all mobs in the AE pack. It's fun to see a rain of numbers. =)
Is anyone else concerned about the interactions of LnL and Explosive Shot making raid dps extremely variable? When LnL procs, the damage done via Explosive Shot spam is extremely good. When it doesn't, survival DPS is massively lower.
So since in a raid we'll be depending on Serpent Sting to proc LnL, I can see huge week-to-week differences on a Brut type fight depending on how lucky you are with LnL. That doesn't seem very fun.
In general I myself stinging everything and praying for LnL to proc, not a very fun way to play. Maybe increase the proc rate of LnL on stings, but give it an internal cooldown to balance it out more? A little more consistency would go a long way.
You could run in and drop an Explosive Trap instead...
You could run in and drop an Explosive Trap instead...
So, with the debate of "rogues > traps" and LnL procs, which would be a better 'trade-off':
Traps now can be tossed 10-15 yards, but retain a 1-2s arming time and are visible until armed.
Or traps drop per-usual and have no arming time.
Tossable traps have their pros and cons:
+With the aiming graphic (like Volley) we would know the exact trigger radius.
+They become usable on almost all bosses (if nothing else, Immo or Snakes).
+Traps become usable in late(-ish) game arenas when it's easy to miss seeing a hunter toss a trap.
-Traps are visible for travel-time + arming time, making them easier to initially avoid.
-Takes longer to get a trap out (Push Trap button vs Push Button + Select Location)
Also, does dropping a trap reset the auto-shot timer?
Throwing or shooting traps is sort of silly. If we're directing a CC or an AoE or a Dot effect, why bother using the clunky trap mechanic at all? Why not just give us a ranged CC with a 2 second cast time? Why not make immolation trap a DoT shot? Why not just give us a fire and forget blizzard-esque ability? Why use traps at all?
Why, because it's our special-little-snowflake-gimmick-flavor ability. If you gave us just straight forward CC abilities or an AoE slow at range it would raise some serious balance concerns.
I'm not even sure if some sort of 'throw trap' mechanic could be balanced if you made it an entirely separate ability that picks up existing traps and had a lengthy cooldown.
Although I do love the idea of throwing another hunter's trap back at them....
Originally Posted by Relwin
If you need a shot macro to hold your hand then you are probably on the wrong forums.
You guys are all discussing the new Disarm trap change while completely ignoring the new hunter abilities as well... Hunter v Rogue traps won't be starting as Hunter sits on trap+flare anymore, you have Master's Call to break you out of their opener and get away, or you can start out in Camo which if the current spell is any indication the Camo stealth lvl is higher then even Vanish stealth lvl so you should be able to get the drop... especially if the wording on camo is completely true and really does only break on Damage being dealt.... leaving you to flare or hunter's mark the rogue from Camo and then open up.
Why would they use Cheap Shot when they know we have Master's Call? They're more likely to Ambush instead, so that even if we use Master's Call to remove Waylay, we still take the Ambush crit.
Camo's description makes no mention of it being stronger than normal Stealth, and most certainly does not say it only breaks on damage.
You camouflage, causing you and your Pet to blend into your surroundings. After 3 sec., you will enter a stealthed state. While stealthed, you and your pet's movement speed is reduced by 30%, but the damage done by your next attack is increased by 50%. You can lay traps while under the effect, but any damage done by you or your pet will cancel the effect. Cannot be cast while in combat.
(9% of Base Mana, Instant, 5 min cooldown)
The only things the description says in regards to what breaks stealth is that laying traps will not break it, and that doing damage will. You can't take that as absolute, especially since a rogue's stealth merely states "Allows the rogue to sneak around, but reduces your speed by 30%. Lasts until canceled." Lasts until canceled? Great, I guess they get to stay in stealth forever, even while attacking, right? If a skill's tooltip displayed all the specifics on the skill, most would be extremely large.
We're discussing the new Disarm change concerning the declining usefulness of traps and flare. None of our new abilities have made the weaknesses to either of them any less glaring, and that's the problem. Master's Call doesn't stop us from getting Sapped from outside Flare's radius. Trainable Deterrence doesn't increase the trigger radius of traps. New Disengage doesn't reduce trap arming time.
While they're all good skills and great buffs to the class, traps and flare are still in dire shape.
Last edited by Kaejin : 09/04/08 at 4:59 PM.
Reason: added the full Camo description
Why would they use Cheap Shot when they know we have Master's Call? They're more likely to Ambush instead, so that even if we use Master's Call to remove Waylay, we still take the Ambush crit.
Camo's description makes no mention of it being stronger than normal Stealth, and most certainly does not say it only breaks on damage.
.
Camo
Apply Aura: Mod Stealth
Value: 600
Vanish
Apply Aura: Mod Stealth
Value: 370
So at the very least you should be able to find them first and knock them out, and possibly depending on how the ability works flare or Hunter's mark them before you attack.
Ah, I see. I didn't look in the uncategorized spells tab to find Camo on Wowhead.
Interesting that it has a 20 second duration. The fact that it's value is so much larger makes me think that it's a placeholder value, but for now I guess as long as you can find them in less than 20 seconds, Camo can help in the initial encounter.
If it stays as a 5 minute cooldown it's not going to help once they Vanish unless you're Survival and have Readiness, provided they don't attack you before the three seconds it takes for Camo to take effect (unlikely, unless they mean to run away [unlikely]).
Also, not to be a broken record, but that still doesn't fix traps and flare. Unless you're right on top of them, flare's travel time gives them enough time to get away most of the time, plus it even gives away your position. Hunter's Mark would be the better of the two options unless you're fighting many rogues that like to clump together.
There's not a whole lot you can do in regard to traps. You can tweak the arming time, or the activation radius or drop the visibility. Outside of those you pretty much have no options to buff traps. And when you consider that all of the previous changes were originally put in place to balance traps it's reasonable to think blizzard's hesitant to remove any of them.
I remember back when shamans got totemic recall Totemic Call - Spell - World of Warcraft and I thought something similar would be nice for traps that havn't been tripped yet. Like a GCD-less ability that removes your trap and resets your CD for a chunk of mana.
But it's just wishful thinking. We can only hope the beta boards get blue's attention and they see fit to adjust traps.
Originally Posted by Relwin
If you need a shot macro to hold your hand then you are probably on the wrong forums.
So at the very least you should be able to find them first and knock them out, and possibly depending on how the ability works flare or Hunter's mark them before you attack.
It's pretty clear that these numbers (plus others, like the 5 min CD) are from when Camo was designed as a Vanish + Cloak of Shadows-type ability. We can expect the newer version to behave more like stealth, particularly since one of the uses for it is to prepare traps while camo'ed. That's not a very useful thing to do if you can only do it every 5 minutes.
Originally Posted by McInaction
There's not a whole lot you can do in regard to traps. You can tweak the arming time, or the activation radius or drop the visibility. Outside of those you pretty much have no options to buff traps. And when you consider that all of the previous changes were originally put in place to balance traps it's reasonable to think blizzard's hesitant to remove any of them.
Those changes were put in place back when traps were much different. They couldn't be trinketed, weren't visible, had no arming time, could not be resisted, were not subject to diminishing returns, and weren't capped in duration. Not only that, but before flare was changed, you could try to get close enough to disarm a trap and end up walking into a flare in the process. There's probably quite a bit you could do to rebalance them now, in light of the incremental changes that have taken place over the years.
One relatively straightforward thing you could do is get rid of the cooldown, but make it so you can only have one trap (or trap effect) active at a time. That would nerf double-trapping (and make Readiness less useful), but it would be worth it. Then, a rogue could disarm your traps from the next county or whatever, but you would be able to drop another one. Instead of disarm trap being a free way to create a type of spell-lockout for hunters, it becomes an ability that rogues can use to clear traps out of the way for whatever reason, such as to clear the way for an opener.
AotV being changed so that procs/hits (maybe they're not sure which yet) will restore a % of base mana.
We're going to be changing it so that procs/hits restore a % of your base mana each time you hit, rather than base it off your actual DPS/damage. While the return of mana based on your actual damage numbers do make the ability a lot of fun (at least I thought so!), it has bad scaling issues.
Silencing Shot will be gaining an interrupt effect.
L&L is intended to proc off all traps.
AotB's LOS issues and lacking effect on pet acknowledged.
Master's Call not working at all acknowledged and confirmed to be fixed in the next build along with most other bugged talents and abilities.
So at the very least you should be able to find them first and knock them out, and possibly depending on how the ability works flare or Hunter's mark them before you attack.
I should probably point out that you're forgetting rogues have a base stealth skill of (5*level).
Those changes were put in place back when traps were much different. They couldn't be trinketed, weren't visible, had no arming time, could not be resisted, were not subject to diminishing returns, and weren't capped in duration. Not only that, but before flare was changed, you could try to get close enough to disarm a trap and end up walking into a flare in the process.
Wow... no wonder they did change traps. If I had such traps I think I would actually like PvP a lot. Oh well, wasn't around back then.
I find it interesting that the buff to Disarm Trap is a very focused buff, centered squarely against Hunters. Now of course it might have PvE implications, there might be a return of real PvE traps and then it will be nice, but where is the skill then? Any idiot can remove traps from 20 yards away. No thrill... Not like when I trap, even if I'm going to be sure it won't be resisted, there is still a slight thrill from seeing a nasty two-shotting mob barrel down on me.
Anyway, it can be the PvE reasons this was done. Why? Well Scare Beast was changed to instant and 30 yards, while it was a really nice PvE buff it was deemed too powerful against Druids, Ferals in particular. Return to 1.5 sec cast (but it got the range at least).
So, when the weakest class got something against the strongest (and one of the weakest) Arena spec in particular, it was reverted. Now it is sort of reversed, one of the strongest got something against one of the weakest.
What does that mean? Either this change won't go through like this, or Hunters might just have recieved enough positive PvP attention to become equally viable to Rogues for instance. The main problem is that it is currently a view-based oppinion, rather than a truly factual one. Should be interesting to see what happens next.
09/03/08, 3:49 PM
.gif "Holy See (Vatican City State)")
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