WotLK Talents & Abilities Discussion - Page 91

• Nisu · 09/04/08, 11:07 PM

Originally Posted by Kaejin

Summary of recent blue posts on the beta board:

AotV being changed so that procs/hits (maybe they're not sure which yet) will restore a % of base mana.

...

One can hope they meant total mana. As it was, Viper would probably have scaled too strongly - it already restored a full mana bar in under 10 seconds in level 70 epics, and with better gear it would probably be possible to gain a full mana bar in the time spent going from Hawk to Viper and back. Having it scale with total mana at a reasonable % would not only allow them to control how long it takes to refill your mana bar, but also return importance to int, which the damage=mana model completely trivialized.

Kaejin · 09/04/08, 11:32 PM

I hope it's not proc based, at the very least. I'd rather have something visibly steady for mana regen.

Of course, as long as I don't spend all my time in Viper like I do now, even a proc is fine.

Arcazua · 09/04/08, 11:43 PM

I'm surprised they implemented a change to viper, and they are so rapidly removing it and turning it into Judgement of Wisdom. It was overtuned, I don't disagree, but it could have worked just fine if they had just tweaked the numbers. 10 seconds for a full bar is too fast? Make it return 40% of your damage as mana instead of 100 then. Now it'll take 25 seconds...or more realistically closer to 30 since extra shots will get fired in that time. Boom. Fixed. Still useful, and can keep your head above water, but not ridiculously overpowered.

Catalept · 09/04/08, 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by Arcazua

I'm surprised they implemented a change to viper, and they are so rapidly removing it and turning it into Judgement of Wisdom. It was overtuned, I don't disagree, but it could have worked just fine if they had just tweaked the numbers. 10 seconds for a full bar is too fast? Make it return 40% of your damage as mana instead of 100 then. Now it'll take 25 seconds...or more realistically closer to 30 since extra shots will get fired in that time. Boom. Fixed. Still useful, and can keep your head above water, but not ridiculously overpowered.

TBH, it reeked of Dirty Hack the moment it appeared. Given that our DPS increases much faster than our mana pools, any 'reasonable' set of coefficients in 5-man blues would be OP in T7 gear, and conversely, 'reasonable' at T7 would have been 'useless' in blues. OTOH, I don't like the idea of a 'percent proc' effect... if we're going to shift to a lower gear, we don't want to be stuck there for a minute or more just because the RNG is feeling peevish.

PSGarak · 09/05/08, 1:26 AM

It's not about the time it absolute power, it's about the scaling. Mana returns scale up, mana costs remain static, you end up with downtime becoming a vanishing part of your rotation, and DPS scales quadratically (up to a carrying capacity).

Celfydd · 09/05/08, 5:21 AM

Is Camouflage still being seriously considered for inclusion in WotLK? My reading of this forum seems to suggest that it is, whereas rumours from other sources have indicated that it wasn't going to be implemented.

While it's a spiffy spell, I do feel that it's encroaching on rogue territory somewhat. More to the point, as a night elf hunter with a cat pet, I can't help feeling that I would be royally shafted on both my own racial and my pet's racial. If any pet can stealth, then Prowl is totally useless. And if any hunter can stealth (and move around while stealthed) then Shadowmeld is totally useless as well. It would leave us with only one significant racial: 1% dodge, which for hunters is (wait for it) totally useless.

Ele · 09/05/08, 5:28 AM

Originally Posted by TrevvyTrev

Those changes were put in place back when traps were much different. They couldn't be trinketed, weren't visible, had no arming time, could not be resisted, were not subject to diminishing returns, and weren't capped in duration. Not only that, but before flare was changed, you could try to get close enough to disarm a trap and end up walking into a flare in the process. There's probably quite a bit you could do to rebalance them now, in light of the incremental changes that have taken place over the years.

They had a lower cooldown too, but they were also not castable in combat, which meant, as you certainly remember, that many hunters macroed or manually did FD+Freezing trap every 30s (FD cooldown).

Today traps are still good for PvE and since I can place them in combat, I find them almost better than they were, except for the cooldown and in a few occasions the arming time can become annoying too.
Frankly my interest for PvP is below zero, so I couldn't care less about rogues and resto druids all around the world trying to gank the occasional hunter, but I understand why they would want them "balanced" even in that context.

EDIT:
@Celfydd: cats are among the most popular pets all over and only night elves find their ability even remotely useful, be it for afk'ing or pvp'ing. I hope that a cat revising will happen soon.
Shadowmeld is still instant with a few seconds cooldown and unlimited duration, while wowhead lists camouflage as a 20s duration, 5 minutes cooldown stealth, with 3s activation time. Not even the same ballpark.

Kaejin · 09/05/08, 5:36 AM

A blue post not too long ago stated that they were considering putting it back in, and the recent data mined version is different from the initial version data mined at the start of open beta. I'd say it's extremely likely to see it at least tested on open beta soon.

As far as encroaching on rogue territory, I don't see why we should be concerned with that anymore. Tricks of the Trade "encroaches" and vastly outperforms Misdirection on most fronts. Druids already have cat form, and have had it since launch. It's still a much more important and useful mechanic for rogues even if we do get it, in any case.

Tough luck on the racials. That's all there is to that. Many races have racials that are completely useless to classes that are available to them, and some that are just completely worthless (will Troll regen ever be useful to anyone?). At least Shadow Meld will grant you a slightly higher stealth level when you camo. As far as cats go, Prowl is nearly useless regardless. It needs to be replaced with something useful even if Camo doesn't make it to release.

sjogren · 09/05/08, 5:42 AM

Originally Posted by PSGarak

It's not about the time it absolute power, it's about the scaling. Mana returns scale up, mana costs remain static, you end up with downtime becoming a vanishing part of your rotation, and DPS scales quadratically (up to a carrying capacity).

Kind of like life tap?

I know, life tap got changed to scale with spirit rather than +damage, but at least it has some scaling. Evocation scales with int since it's % of total mana. So let's hope they mean %mana rather than %basemana for AotV too.

Serf · 09/05/08, 7:13 AM

Originally Posted by Dralmoo

Presumably you'd lose more DPS running in to drop the trap than you'd gain. Not to mention Sniper Training wants us to be far, far away.

Except we already know Sniper Training isn't worth the points dueto the fact it puts us out of aura ranges. We can't exactly be 30 yards away plus within 30yards to get those lovely melee range auras.

Pintofbrew · 09/05/08, 7:29 AM

Originally Posted by Gearknight

Uh, if the LnL buff you get from chimera lasts 10 seconds, how could arcane shot possibly not come off CD (6 seconds) in that time?

Without wanting to assume, when you use an ability which shares a cooldown with another one, they both gain a CD equal to the CD of the one you used.

For mages, Cone and Dragon's Breath share CD, yet DB is substantially longer. If you Cone, they both gain a CD timer equal to Cone's CD, if you Dragon, they both gain Dragon's CD. Hence I extrapolated, if you use a Chimera shot to proc LnL, both Chimera and AS will be on a 10sec CD.

Unless: (1) The cooldown-linking for CS/AS is not working in the same way as DB/CoC, which it should or (2)AS and CS are not on shared cooldown, in which case my whole question is moot.

Originally Posted by sjogren

Kind of like life tap?

I know, life tap got changed to scale with spirit rather than +damage, but at least it has some scaling. Evocation scales with int since it's % of total mana. So let's hope they mean %mana rather than %basemana for AotV too.

Exactly like both life-tap and Evo, new AotV should scale with manapool too. There's currently no mana-return that scales with % base mana. Though you could argue managems are flat, but that's too different to compare.

Terp · 09/05/08, 7:48 AM

Ugh, I think they would have been better of taking AotV and converting it to an actual evocation type ability with a large cooldown and such. The biggest strength of the new form was that you didn't have to be sitting in AotV 24/7 while grinding or pvping, how strong it was was ancillary. Changing it to a simple JoW type thing is probably one of the worst decisions they could have made in that regard.

Spiry · 09/05/08, 9:13 AM

Shadowmeld also increases the passive stealth levels of both Night Elf rogues and druids, I don't see why it wont also work for hunters too.

mako · 09/05/08, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Terp

Ugh, I think they would have been better of taking AotV and converting it to an actual evocation type ability with a large cooldown and such. The biggest strength of the new form was that you didn't have to be sitting in AotV 24/7 while grinding or pvping, how strong it was was ancillary. Changing it to a simple JoW type thing is probably one of the worst decisions they could have made in that regard.

Cunning pet's top tier talent is closer to the evocate you're looking for. AotV needs to stay as something you can use on demand with no cooldown if it's going to remain a viable way to continue dps while regening mana. There's a reason no mage worth a damn (except arcane) will evocate in normal circumstances.

dssurge · 09/05/08, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Terp

Ugh, I think they would have been better of taking AotV and converting it to an actual evocation type ability with a large cooldown and such. The biggest strength of the new form was that you didn't have to be sitting in AotV 24/7 while grinding or pvping, how strong it was was ancillary. Changing it to a simple JoW type thing is probably one of the worst decisions they could have made in that regard.

I'm in agreement fully with this.

The temporary implementation of AotV was obviously "flawed" and heavily endorsed the use of 0-int gear. The less mana you had, the more damage per shot you do, the faster viper worked and the more effective it was. At the same time it was probably the most logical implementation for it allows Blizzard to once and for all completely ditch Int as a stat on Mail DPS gear.

Seeing as Hunters gain significant AP from Hawk, assuming Hawk is on full time is where the bar should be set. By using anything but Hawk you are already losing DPS. I don't think JoW is the way to go personally, but I also feel that putting a damage penalty on viper without tremendous mana gains makes the ability almost entirely useless.

If they try to make Viper based of Int, insignificant amount of intellect will not be effective enough to merit intellect on Hunter gear. The same is true of the 2 Intellect relevant talents in the Marks tree. 1 AGI will always be better than 1 INT so putting INT on all Mail gear is pretty stupid when the Rogue class has basically optimal gear that I can conveniently wear. I'm still not convinced Blizzard has a lick of an idea how to play or design the Hunter class and since Hunters and Shaman are the only two classes designed to wear Mail, Intellect on gear is entirely pointless and trying to derive an ability which includes it is silly.

The problem with the AotV that was up is that the Hunter gained mana absurdly fast. Zero to full in 5 seconds is a touch excessive, even I can admit this. Scaling the ability to 80% damage done and 20% mana returned would cause it to take significantly longer to regenerate mana. At 3,000 DPS you're looking at a ~620 DPS loss (including AotH) by turning it on, and 480 mana per second returned. This would cause AotV to take from 15-20 seconds depending on mana pool to go from 0 to full mana which is extremely reasonable in my opinion.

Celfydd · 09/05/08, 11:14 AM

Currently, there are modifiers to pet stats based on their talent tree:

          HP±   AC±  DPS±
Cunning   +5%   +5%   +5%
Ferocity  +5%  +10%  +10%
Tenacity +10%  +15%    0%

As others have noted in this thread, the figures don't add up to equal values across the talent trees: Cunning pets are down 10% on stat bonuses overall.

It seems to me that this could be easily rebalanced. Ferocity pets have no need of armour. If we assign 15% of bonuses to each tree we could arrive at:

          HP±   AC±  DPS±
Cunning   +5%   +5%   +5%
Ferocity  +5%    0%  +10%
Tenacity +10%  +10%   -5%

Doesn't that seem a lot fairer?

Mikari · 09/05/08, 12:27 PM

Why is everyone misreading the Aspect of the Viper change and assuming it's going to be proc based? It simply states that Aspect of the Viper will return mana on hits/procs remember there are items that cause damage via procs e.g the scryer version of the shattered sun neck or the poison vial in karazhan.

Bovii · 09/05/08, 12:42 PM

Pintofbrew · 09/05/08, 1:26 PM

Eh, tenacity is the tanking one, Bovii. Cunning is the utility/pvp one.

Aerynlore · 09/05/08, 1:46 PM

          HP±   AC±  DPS±
Cunning   +5%   +5%   +5%
Ferocity  +0%   +5%  +10%
Tenacity  +5%  +10%    0%

If all pets are going to have at least a bonus of +5% to HP and AC, why not increase the base of all pets, and reduce their overall modifiers to a total of +15%, spreading them as above.
Cunning is the all around pet, Ferocity is focused on DPS and Tenacity is focused on survivability. Although, personally, I'd rather see Ferocity get their bonus to HP, and not to AC, but I was going off of Blizz's initial balance.

Initially, this could be seen as a nerf to Ferocity and Tenacity pets, but remember that I'm also proposing the baseline of HP and AC get bumped up.

Toastradamus · 09/05/08, 2:25 PM

It seems like people are seeing "hit/proc" and assuming that we will be getting JoW EXACTLY from AotV. As in, the % of mana pool returned per hit/proc. This then is inspiring visions of entire fights spent in AotV instead of AotH. I think people are misreading the intentions of the change. Maybe I am the one misinterpreting things though.

I see this move as an attempt to fix the two big issues of the current viper implementation (scaling issues + incentivising replacement of int with damage stats in gear decisions) while maintaining the function (allowing the aspect to be used for relatively short periods to recharge so you can get back to dpsing). While dps changes with gear, attacks per second does not (so long as you have the mana to use the attacks). By basing the mana regen on aps you can set the approximate amount of time needed in viper by tweaking the % of mana returned each hit/proc and that amount of time will stay relatively constant throughout progression instead of steadily decreasing. The key here is that the % of mana does not in any way have to be similar to JoW. To use the type of example Blizzard seems to enjoy right now, they could set that % to 100 and have it proc off every hit. Then you certainly wouldn't need to be in viper very long even if they go with base mana instead of max mana.

Base mana versus max mana is mildly interesting as a question though. Using base, the amount of time it takes to regen a set amount of mana stays pretty constant. Using total mana, the amount of time it takes to regen a set percentage of your mana bar stays pretty constant. I don't know which one is more useful for them.

As a tangent on the topic of int: does anyone else find it somewhat insane that we have to spent talent points to get AP from int? It sort of makes sense for the shaman since you have to spec into the tree to want AP in the first place, but all hunters have to make the choice between rogue gear and hunter gear regardless of spec. I don't think it makes any sense for our gear to be worse for us than other people's gear unless we put points in a talent, regardless of how easy that talent is to pick up. If our class is going to be designed around the assumption that we want int on our gear then our class should want int on our gear, not just members of our class who have a particular talent. Should we really have to choose between 51/0/20-type specs and mail gear? It just seems so silly to me in a fundamental way. Sure, I think it's silly that the mortal strike effect that was supposed to fix hunter pvp was given to hunters as long as they didn't spec BM/Surv or Surv/BM, but this is a whole new level of weird to me. Each beta push I keep expecting Careful Aim to be made a base class attribute just like how they gave shamans AP from agility, and it keeps not happening.

TrevvyTrev · 09/05/08, 2:26 PM

Originally Posted by Celfydd

It seems to me that this could be easily rebalanced. Ferocity pets have no need of armour. If we assign 15% of bonuses to each tree we could arrive at:

          HP±   AC±  DPS±
Cunning   +5%   +5%   +5%
Ferocity  +5%    0%  +10%
Tenacity +10%  +10%   -5%

Doesn't that seem a lot fairer?

The problem is the negative damage modifier for the tenacity tree. Tanking in general for WotLK is shifting, with a larger emphasis on threat generation from actual dps (so that it scales more easily). It also creates a 15% damage difference between the ferocity pets and the tenacity ones, which makes tenacity pets even less desirable for many hunters in raid situations, and it is contemplated by the designers themselves that at least one tenacity pet (worm) is supposed to have a raid role.

Ketari · 09/05/08, 3:08 PM

Originally Posted by Toastradamus

It seems like people are seeing "hit/proc" and assuming that we will be getting JoW EXACTLY from AotV. As in, the % of mana pool returned per hit/proc. This then is inspiring visions of entire fights spent in AotV instead of AotH. I think people are misreading the intentions of the change. Maybe I am the one misinterpreting things though.

No, actually I'm seeing a big damage reduction for a proc based return (and propably only a few ppm-one) which I'll be dropping non-steady shots to avoid for as long as possible right now. It may be clumsy wording from Blizz, but that's my current feeling.

Ravenfire · 09/05/08, 3:38 PM

Originally Posted by Toastradamus

It seems like people are seeing "hit/proc" and assuming that we will be getting JoW EXACTLY from AotV. As in, the % of mana pool returned per hit/proc. This then is inspiring visions of entire fights spent in AotV instead of AotH. I think people are misreading the intentions of the change. Maybe I am the one misinterpreting things though.

I see this move as an attempt to fix the two big issues of the current viper implementation (scaling issues + incentivising replacement of int with damage stats in gear decisions) while maintaining the function (allowing the aspect to be used for relatively short periods to recharge so you can get back to dpsing). While dps changes with gear, attacks per second does not (so long as you have the mana to use the attacks). By basing the mana regen on aps you can set the approximate amount of time needed in viper by tweaking the % of mana returned each hit/proc and that amount of time will stay relatively constant throughout progression instead of steadily decreasing. The key here is that the % of mana does not in any way have to be similar to JoW. To use the type of example Blizzard seems to enjoy right now, they could set that % to 100 and have it proc off every hit. Then you certainly wouldn't need to be in viper very long even if they go with base mana instead of max mana.

Base mana versus max mana is mildly interesting as a question though. Using base, the amount of time it takes to regen a set amount of mana stays pretty constant. Using total mana, the amount of time it takes to regen a set percentage of your mana bar stays pretty constant. I don't know which one is more useful for them.

As a tangent on the topic of int: does anyone else find it somewhat insane that we have to spent talent points to get AP from int? It sort of makes sense for the shaman since you have to spec into the tree to want AP in the first place, but all hunters have to make the choice between rogue gear and hunter gear regardless of spec. I don't think it makes any sense for our gear to be worse for us than other people's gear unless we put points in a talent, regardless of how easy that talent is to pick up. If our class is going to be designed around the assumption that we want int on our gear then our class should want int on our gear, not just members of our class who have a particular talent. Should we really have to choose between 51/0/20-type specs and mail gear? It just seems so silly to me in a fundamental way. Sure, I think it's silly that the mortal strike effect that was supposed to fix hunter pvp was given to hunters as long as they didn't spec BM/Surv or Surv/BM, but this is a whole new level of weird to me. Each beta push I keep expecting Careful Aim to be made a base class attribute just like how they gave shamans AP from agility, and it keeps not happening.

Agreed with everthing you said except for the bolded part. If AotV does a % of Base mana then as your gear gets better and better and has more and more intellect it will take LONGER to regen to full mana because once your at level 80 your base mana pool stops increasing no matter how much intellect you gear has. If AotV does a % of total mana it would indeed stay at a very nearly constant time to regen max mana. Between the two options I am rooting for % total mana as that is what a mage's Evocation does.

Cranch · 09/05/08, 3:39 PM

Regarding the AotV upcoming change, does anyone else see this as Blizzard's way of telling us to stock up on 1.8 speed machine guns?