WotLK Talents & Abilities Discussion - Page 92

Mikari · 09/05/08, 3:41 PM

Again Koraa does not state that it will be a proc based ability, only that procs would would also return mana, I already stated multiple items in TBC that have proc damage.

RogueLeaderX · 09/05/08, 3:43 PM

Originally Posted by Aerynlore

          HP±   AC±  DPS±
Cunning   +5%   +5%   +5%
Ferocity  +0%   +5%  +10%
Tenacity  +5%  +10%    0%

If all pets are going to have at least a bonus of +5% to HP and AC, why not increase the base of all pets, and reduce their overall modifiers to a total of +15%, spreading them as above.
Cunning is the all around pet, Ferocity is focused on DPS and Tenacity is focused on survivability. Although, personally, I'd rather see Ferocity get their bonus to HP, and not to AC, but I was going off of Blizz's initial balance.

Initially, this could be seen as a nerf to Ferocity and Tenacity pets, but remember that I'm also proposing the baseline of HP and AC get bumped up.

Does anyone know how the stats for the new pets was determined? It's seems odd that petopia lists all pets as +5% for HP and AC. I can't find information on the site as to what the baseline (+0%) is or how it was determined if all pet families have +5%.

(I'm assuming they did something simple like pop a stamina buff on a pet and noticed it got 5% more health than it should have but I don't know for certain.)

It does make sense to make all families equal (in terms of total percentage buffs.) That might give some of the more interesting cunning pets a shot at seeing raid time.

PSGarak · 09/05/08, 4:28 PM

It's ok that one pet family may have a different sum of percentages than other, because they may not all be worth the same. I might argue that 1% AC is not as good as 1% HP with very good reason. However, it is a problem that ferocity is strictly superior to cunning because it has the same or greater buff in every category, meaning that no matter what relative value you place on the various stats, ferocity wins.

Neither of these are a problem if the ferocity talent tree is also balanced around being slightly worse than the cunning tree. If the bonuses plus the trees are balanced, there's no need for the bonuses, or trees, to be balanced in their own right.

Ketari · 09/05/08, 4:41 PM

Originally Posted by PSGarak

Neither of these are a problem if the ferocity talent tree is also balanced around being slightly worse than the cunning tree. If the bonuses plus the trees are balanced, there's no need for the bonuses, or trees, to be balanced in their own right.

Well, right now if you don't have the 51-BM talent then Ferocity and Cunning pets are both perfectly viable. If you do have 51-BM then the additional points scale far better with Ferocity pets and you're strongly advised as things stand to use one.

RogueLeaderX - yep, there's a reason for it being that way: see here

Tyranna · 09/05/08, 6:58 PM

Originally Posted by Cranch

Regarding the AotV upcoming change, does anyone else see this as Blizzard's way of telling us to stock up on 1.8 speed machine guns?

I don't really see this being too much of an issue. I know a few caster classes that carry around a +spirit weapon for innervates. I believe mages used to do something similar for evocating (or still do. don't pay much attention to them.)

If Blizz decides to go this route, it's just one GCD to swap your weapon for your "Evocate" weapon.

Aerynlore · 09/05/08, 7:37 PM

Originally Posted by Tyranna

I don't really see this being too much of an issue. I know a few caster classes that carry around a +spirit weapon for innervates. I believe mages used to do something similar for evocating (or still do. don't pay much attention to them.)

If Blizz decides to go this route, it's just one GCD to swap your weapon for your "Evocate" weapon.

Maybe it's just me, but I cringe anytime someone replies with a "meh, we'll find a way around that" solution. It smells of something that will down the line be considered (a) broken, or (b) something that happens so often, our class will need to be balanced around it.

I really don't want to think that "rapid fire weapon of mana return goodness" is going to be a good "solution", because we may just find that the highest rate of fire weapon turns out to be some level 71 green that I'll have to carry around until Expansion 3. File that under "not fun" for me.

Shenzhe · 09/05/08, 9:13 PM

I think a solution to the issues of "switching to machine gun" for mana gain, they could put a max PPM in it. Allowing it to work just perfectly for someone using a 3ish speed gun hasted down to 2.something. The only problem with that is that you'd probably lose procs on a gun that shoot's "too fast" since the next shot would fire before AotV allowed another proc, but you'd have to wait for a whole extra shot before you could get a second shot. Specials would affect that whole thing normalizing it slightly.

Another option that's possible is to allow it to only proc on specials (strange for a mana restoring talent to require you to spend mana.) That would allow the GCD to be the limiting factor to keep the gun speed from playing any sort of part. Haste matters only a little for people who haven't dropped SS to a 1.5 cast speed.

Iunno that's just my .02

Mikari · 09/05/08, 9:37 PM

A variety of spells in the new files indicate that Core Hounds...yes, CORE HOUNDS! are a new Exotic Pet! Their ability seems to be Lava Breath:

* Lava Breath (Rank 1): Your pet breathes a double gout of molten lava at the target for $s1 Fire damage and reduces the target's casting speed by $s3% for $d.
* Lava Breath (Rank 2): Level 16, 25 Focus, 10 sec cooldown. Your pet breathes a double gout of molten lava at the target for 7 Fire damage and reduces the target's casting speed by 50% for 10 sec.

Should be fun trying to tame one of these.

Ryoushii · 09/05/08, 9:44 PM

Wonder if the core hound family will include the Kurken mob from Azuremyst. Always wanted that model for a pet.

Tyranna · 09/06/08, 1:44 AM

Rapid Repercussion was changed again in the latest build. Instead of 150% damage to mana for 6 seconds, RR returns 3% mana every 2 seconds for 6 seconds. So that's effectively 9% mana every time RK procs. The core problem still remains. The mana regen only activates on Rapid Killing, which only activates when you land the killing blow on something that gives you xp or honor. Unless bosses have lots of adds, you won't get much mileage out of it as a raiding talent. Also, with a ballpark of 15 DPSers, your chances of landing a killing blow when you need it are pretty low.

This leads me to still think there's something off between the three trees. SV has TotH and HP. BM has Invigoration. On the one hand, the raid wide mana synergies lead me to think that TotH and Invigorate are redundant. On the other, if it's not, MM is still lacking an effective mana return.

◊ Lactose · 09/06/08, 2:17 AM

I think you mean Rapid Recuperation.

I'd have to agree with the later part of your post. Both Beastmastery and Survival have mana regeneration talents available to them during a fight, while Marksman only has inbetween fights (dependant on killing blows).

Assuming Beastmastery and Survival need their mana regen talents, it would seem that the corresponding Marksman talent is somewhat lacking.
On the other hand, if Marksman Hunters are fine on mana, the Beastmastery and Survival talents seem redundant and useless.
Balance here seems to be off, and it doesn't appear to be just simply tweaking some numbers here and there - conceptually the talents work in different ways. While I'm not advocating identical talents, Marksman Hunters do seem to be lacking in the mana regen department, which might have some severe impact on the tree's raiding viability.

That said, balance will most likely shift a bit depending on the new iteration of Aspect of the Viper. However, I can't see how a new Aspect of the Viper will change things around completely, without some sort of change to either the Beastmastery and Survival talents, or the Marksman talents.

EDIT: Hunters also seem to be very dependant on having good external mana regen buffs (most notably perhaps being Judgement of Wisdom). Being so dependant on one class' buff for mana reasons doesn't seem like the best thing...

Ravenfire · 09/06/08, 4:04 AM

Couple of intersting tidbits...
Viper Rank 5 is now actually trainable
Volley Rank 5 (NEW) has been added

Chul · 09/06/08, 5:23 AM

Why is Blizzard stacking our gear with haste, the worst DPS stat for us ?

Steelfleece · 09/06/08, 5:30 AM

Originally Posted by Lactose

EDIT: Hunters also seem to be very dependant on having good external mana regen buffs (most notably perhaps being Judgement of Wisdom). Being so dependant on one class' buff for mana reasons doesn't seem like the best thing...

Marksmanship/Beast Mastery hunters perhaps. But try as I might, spamming Steady/Explosive/etc as a Survival Hunter in an instance run I couldn't make myself run out of mana. I only fell to about half during one fairly long boss fight. I never used Viper.

It's probably at least partially due to each tick of Explosive Shot critting restoring mana based on Thrill of the Hunt.

Edit: Chul: They probably don't really realize how it's not that great for us. Blizzard is often somewhat oblivious to this kind of thing at first, unless you beat them over the head with it. Given time, they'll probably realize, but we do need to make sure they know that Haste rating isn't that great for us after a certain (easily obtainable) point.

Terp · 09/06/08, 6:24 AM

Originally Posted by Steelfleece

Edit: Chul: They probably don't really realize how it's not that great for us. Blizzard is often somewhat oblivious to this kind of thing at first, unless you beat them over the head with it. Given time, they'll probably realize, but we do need to make sure they know that Haste rating isn't that great for us after a certain (easily obtainable) point.

Uh, I was under the impression that *any* haste rating was terrible. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Windfury and Quiver are enough to knock steady below 1.5? Meaning the only thing haste would affect was latency and autoshot. You certainly don't need to fill the complaints about the stat with caveats about Serpent Swiftness and weapon speed and whatever else like the topic that popped up on the beta forum.

Mikari · 09/06/08, 7:05 AM

Originally Posted by Terp

Uh, I was under the impression that *any* haste rating was terrible. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Windfury and Quiver are enough to knock steady below 1.5? Meaning the only thing haste would affect was latency and autoshot. You certainly don't need to fill the complaints about the stat with caveats about Serpent Swiftness and weapon speed and whatever else like the topic that popped up on the beta forum.

Windfury doesn't affect ranged haste up to a build ago, I haven't been able to test if last nights build fixed that since the server is unstable, Improved Icy Talons also doesn't affect ranged haste.

Chul · 09/06/08, 7:47 AM

Originally Posted by Mikari

Windfury doesn't affect ranged haste up to a build ago, I haven't been able to test if last nights build fixed that since the server is unstable, Improved Icy Talons also doesn't affect ranged haste.

I was under the impression that Windfury totem was both melee and ranged (but the +4% talent boost was only melee?). Both MMO-Champion and WoWHead seem to confirm that. It would be good to confirm one way or the other, since the WotLK DPS spreadsheet assumes it works on ranged.

But anyway, even if we discount Windfury, haste is still isn't as good as AP or AGI, and quite poor a stat for BM hunters (which gets back to perhaps having at least two sets of gear for "pure" classes).

Hopefully Blizzard just put in a "template" of stats and will adjust once they do their DPS/tuning pass.

Mikari · 09/06/08, 7:52 AM

Originally Posted by Chul

I was under the impression that Windfury totem was both melee and ranged (but the +4% talent boost was only melee?). Both MMO-Champion and WoWHead seem to confirm that. It would be good to confirm one way or the other, since the WotLK DPS spreadsheet assumes it works on ranged.

But anyway, even if we discount Windfury, haste is still isn't as good as AP or AGI, and quite poor a stat for BM hunters (which gets back to perhaps having at least two sets of gear for "pure" classes).

Hopefully Blizzard just put in a "template" of stats and will adjust once they do their DPS/tuning pass.

The tooltip states it should affect ranged haste, it just doesn't affect the character pane at the moment, I'm hoping Blizzard fix it.

[edit]

Looks like they fixed WF it's now affecting ranged attacks properly.

Steelfleece · 09/06/08, 9:41 AM

Originally Posted by Terp

Uh, I was under the impression that *any* haste rating was terrible. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Windfury and Quiver are enough to knock steady below 1.5? Meaning the only thing haste would affect was latency and autoshot. You certainly don't need to fill the complaints about the stat with caveats about Serpent Swiftness and weapon speed and whatever else like the topic that popped up on the beta forum.

Well, yes, but I think we might assume we don't ALWAYS have the haste buff. In a raid situation, though, certainly. It certainly shouldn't be on raid gear for hunters.

KraxisSingular · 09/06/08, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Steelfleece

Well, yes, but I think we might assume we don't ALWAYS have the haste buff. In a raid situation, though, certainly. It certainly shouldn't be on raid gear for hunters.

Well is it any greater for solo gear in any case? The value of Haste might be slightly better until the soft cap for MM and Surv, but Surv at least has a lot of instants, so for them it is sort of 'meh', if not quite as much as for BMs. And that brings another point, if one spec really can't use Haste it would once more be a rather poor stat, or else there would need to be another piece of armor, and then we are back to the current situation of many types of armor for many classes. If they didn't do that then BM Hunters would be sticking out like a sore thumb. Even pre-raiding.

But back to MM. So they gain a certain value from Haste. Great! However even MMs with haste must be assumed to join in instances now and then, and WF isn't going to the that uncommon. The tank can always use it, so if there is just one other physical you can be almost sure that any Shaman will drop it to give the most benefit to group, regardless of the MM only gaining a limited value (as he still gains a fair bit). For solo... Well, faster isn't always better there.

No, Haste is at best a circumstantial stat for more or less one spec, regardless of situation. That is pretty poor overall. That should indicate that Haste should be present (of course it should due to Enhancers wanting it some degree), but not in the amounts we have seen so far.

Steelfleece · 09/06/08, 11:51 AM

Well, I'm just trying to not say "Haste Rating is a useless stat," basically. That said, I don't really want to equip gear that wastes any decent amount of item budget on it. And I certainly don't want to see it on Hunter raid set gear.

Shandara · 09/06/08, 12:08 PM

The big problem with haste is that for the item budget points it costs, it just doesn't return enough DPS. And the total lack of decent +hit on the new Naxx 10-man set is disturbing too.

It's like the humongous amounts of stamina , which while nice for a few gimmick fights like Na'jentus, eats up a sizeable portion of the budget where it could've been spent on DPS stats.

KraxisSingular · 09/06/08, 1:01 PM

Originally Posted by Steelfleece

Well, I'm just trying to not say "Haste Rating is a useless stat," basically. That said, I don't really want to equip gear that wastes any decent amount of item budget on it. And I certainly don't want to see it on Hunter raid set gear.

Sorry if I might have lashed out, it wasn't the intention. It is just that all too often Hunters when seeing the new haste gear get happy in total ignorance. Just look at the beta forums. It can get a little frustrating.

Their ignorance might hurt us more than they know. Not being a tester I only have one option, and that is to mention it here.

Personally I'm fine with us not wanting Haste, some classes/spec want it some don't, but to see it on a relatively large amount of gear is unfortunate.

And I agree with Shandara, stamina is nice for special fights, but then I would have to say that we ahve PvP gear and special drops for that. Set gear should be about as much DPS as we can safely get (naturally we can't and shouldn't get stam-less gear). But as long as this is a universal thing I'm fine with it. If we are one of a few classes that get that then I'm not obviously.

Shandara · 09/06/08, 1:13 PM

The puzzling thing is, they do manage to put out near-perfect itemized items like Rusted-Link Spiked Gauntlets occasionally with good sockets and an actual to the point socket bonus.

Still, until we see the 25-man set it's hard to say anything about their tier itemization. Let's hope it's not another tier4 debacle.

Edit:
After looking at the enhancement shaman 10-man set, I can only say: Can we trade?

Ketari · 09/06/08, 3:57 PM

Originally Posted by Lactose

I think you mean Rapid Recuperation.

I'd have to agree with the later part of your post. Both Beastmastery and Survival have mana regeneration talents available to them during a fight, while Marksman only has inbetween fights (dependant on killing blows).

Well, if the mob has mana, you can viper and chimera shot to get a reasonable return, especially with the sting talent.

The problem is that you're using two of your GCD's every 15 seconds (i.e. 20% of the time) for this and missing both serpent and the damage from chimera/serpent, dropping your DPS into the toilet. And there's improved steady but at 15% to Thrill's % crit (so double+) chance of restoring mana and not on steady...well, it's not really very good compared.

Also, wait, thrill triggers off explosive shot ticks? Hm... that'd explain a few things and makes Thrill even better.