Asmolicious

I was playing around with some napkin math.

Let's assume our Modern day lvl 80 hunter has ~3k RAP and a 130dps bow and 75dps ammo. (RAP ~ 214 dps)

Following non-crit, zero ac values

Multi ~ 1581 + 408= (130 + 75 + 214) * 2.8 + 408
Steady ~ 1454 = (130 * 2.8 ) + (75 * 2.8 ) + (3000 * 0.2) + 280
Arcane ~ 942 = (3000 * 0.15) + 492
Serpent ~ 1810 = (3000 * 0.2) + 1210
Kill ~ 2850 = 3000 * 0.15 + 2400

This almost makes me wonder if BM hunters would even bother keeping a Serpent up as gear progresses. Steady will scale faster than serpent, eventually surpassing it if it doesn't already ( remember these values do not include crits ). Crits from the hunter also proc other abilities for the pet (Cobra Strikes & GFTT). I guess with the glyph it makes the GCD for serpent worth it but it's still quite woeful.

Certainly imp arcane isn't worth it as it stands. The talent points are incredibly valuable outside of the core 51 BM points. Lethal Shots, Mortal Shots, GFTT, imp Tracking and Careful Aim / Survival Instincts.

The ladies like the bestial wrath, they don't appreciate the rapid fire.

 

Shandara

You forget 2 important things:
1) Armor: Steady takes a big hit from this
2) Damage modifiers (talents, buffs, etc..): these increase damage by a great amount

Plus, with all the talents/procs/buffs going off a hunter has a great deal more than 3000 AP most of the time. Arcane keeps ignoring armor while scaling, Steady doesn't. Plus you forget that shots crit, which affects the average they deal if looking at a greater time. Again, armor helps Arcane get full benefit of crit and +crit% damage bonus, while Steady is hampered by it.

WotLK Hunter DPS Spreadsheet

 

Onouris

Yeah I entirely plan on keeping serpent up, but that is solely because of the glyph. If it also does nice damage, great.

 

Trickytrout

As long as a survival hunter is in the raid BM hunters shouldn't have to keep up serpent, correct? I was under the impression that as long as serpent was on the target, all hunters with the glyph get the increased damage, regardless of who put it up.

 

Mikari

I'm not sure about others but I'm personally leaning towards separation anxiety over improved tracking for the simple fact that the micro managing of tracking skills is going to be more hassle than I'm willing to deal with, where's the extra damage from separation anxiety is tied to the micro managing of the pet which I'm already going to be doing anyway.

In regards to AP, a level 80 in blues as bm spec is looking at around 3100-3200 rap easily with just hawk up.

 

Onouris

Hmm that's interesting. Didn't think about that. That's seems reasonable though

"Increases the damage dealt by Steady Shot by 10% when your target is afflicted with Serpent Sting. (Requires Level 62)"

Doesn't mention 'your' at all there.

Mute point for me though last time I raided with another hunter was a looooooooong, loooooong time ago lol.

 

KraxisSingular

Sounds like a recipie for testing.

No Surv/MM, do your dirty work yourself, with one... lean back and spam Steady Shot.

Arcane Shot hasn't got a chance against Steady. And I think I know why Arcane hasn't been buffed directly and Steady hasn't need nerfed. Arcane can be cast on the move, Steady can't, and Steady is no matter what going to be the major part of BM DPS (MM too for that matter). Nerfing Steady will impact the entire class negatively, buffing Arcane might have PvP implications they don't want... Not for BM mind you, but imagine Aimed-Sting-CS-Arcane-Multi-Kill Shot. Perhaps add a single Steady before Kill. That is a powerful use of cooldown shots. I'm not saying it will be enough, but it certainly provides a lot of relatively long heavy burst on the target, plus MS debuff for the duration.

The Imp Arcane talent is much easier to get for MM PvP builds (or in case it is buffed for PvE too). BM has to sacrifice something they don't really want to. 15% to Arcane needs to outscale 3% damage overall. I'm not sure that is worth it unless Arcane gets a serious buff.

The only way I can imagine Arcane being worth it for BM, is if it gets a serious buff in the BM tree (to avoid the entire pain-train for MM in case of a general buff) or Steady is nerfed (and we are talking more than just getting rid of the glyph). I don't think the first is likely, and the second is a very shaky proposition due to the central role Steady has.

 

Asmolicious

Oh, I realise I didn't include crit and armour but I did mention this in my post. It was purely an exercise in very rough simulation to get some numbers out.

Any raid boss is going to be have double armour debuff on top of any armour pen. With the mitigation of armour I still don't see arcane being worth it. They both take up the same GCD but steady will do more damage at the start of LK and will continue to outstrip it's partner by the looks of things.

Am I missing something with serpent sting? The glyph adds an extra tick (3 seconds) which essentially adds an extra 1/5th to it's original damage essentially per GCD. As weapons and ammo improve through LK, steady will creep up on serpent in terms of damage per shot. You also don't get any of the benefits of crits which, for a BM hunter, provide juicy additional results. Serpent does do more damage but if the formula stays as is it won't be worth it, also if you want a hunter to keep up scorpid, BM gets the least out of the sting.

The ladies like the bestial wrath, they don't appreciate the rapid fire.

 

Galred

Did Haste get changed to lower the GCD for hunters? If not, BM hunters (and possibly all hunters in a raid setting) will be slammed up against the 1.5 GCD for Steady Shot.

 

Fabijo

 

steamrice

They meant steady shot glyph which increases Steady Shot damage by 10% if Serpent Sting is up.

 

KraxisSingular

No, it hasn't been changed.

I must ask, why do people continually ask this? A general question. I see people on the official boards ask again and again and again.

Only ratings apply to both spell and physical. No mention of the GCD anywhere (that is an internal mechanic of casters).

 

Galred

Reason for asking this, in my case: An earlier poster mentioned BM hunters having steady shots below 1.5 sec, and I hadn't seen a blue post that changed the status quo.

In general though I suspect it's hunters forlornly hoping that Haste got changed so that our itemization is more appealing.

 

Asmolicious

Of course, my bad. Still, if you are BM and you have an MM/SV hunter in the raid it looks like you wouldn't need to have your sting down for the bonus.

The ladies like the bestial wrath, they don't appreciate the rapid fire.

 

Lord Loom

I think the point where people get confused is that they assume spell haste is what lowers ability cooldowns for casters, hence a unified haste stat should lower hunter GCDs too. What they don't realize is that the change was specifically
We might have "spell haste" built in now but we are still using "ranged abilities" with the usual GCD of 1.5 seconds.

Everyone always coming to Zathras with problems. Great responsibilities. But Zathras does not mind. Zathras trained in crisis management.

 

steamrice

Patchwerk

Heres a log of 25 man patchwerk.

Leica SV hunter - 3729 dps (830 pet dps with raptor)
Sorebawlz BM hunter - 3541 dps (1800 pet dps with devilsaur)
Priz SV hunter - 3152 dps (553 pet dps with raptor)


It seems to be a gear difference as there is a huge hit difference from Leica's raptor at 7% miss and Sorebawlz's devilsaur at 11% miss.

edit: The rest of naxx 25m Raid History

 

Havok

Additionally, now that Serpent Sting scales with RAP, I would think you'd want the MM to apply it when possible.

 

Asmolicious

Any MM hunter will be using Chimaera shot every 10 seconds while maintaining a serpent at all times. Serpent is an absolute must for them.

The ladies like the bestial wrath, they don't appreciate the rapid fire.

 

Houze

Adding crit and armor reduction and you will see how much is needed to make Steady stronger then Serpent.
For example, with 20% damage reduction from armor, we get: Steady 0.8*1451 = 1163
(1163*0.57)+(1163*2.3*0.43) = 1813 ~ 1810, so we need 43% crit before Steady becomes stronger then Serpent in this case.

Serpent has a good base damage and scale with AP rather good, but as it don't scale with weapon and ammo it will be passed by other shots when the hunter reaches a certain gearlevel (T8?).

Arcane shot scale with crit and have about the same AP-scaling as Steady (counting with 20% armor reduction you get 16% AP-scaling on SS) but Arcane has a low base damage (492) and don't scale with weapon+ammo. It seems like Arcane shot is worse then Steady even with rather low weapon damage, making it useless in anything above WotLK green gear. This somewhat asumes armor reduction after debuffs will be about the same as they are now.

Has anyone got any armor values for bosses in WotLK yet? If they are rather high, there maybe will be usage for Arcane shot after all when including the talented 15% plus the 13% from debuffs like Earth and Moon.

 

Asmolicious

The only thing that still makes me think twice about Serpent is that if you were to steady you have a chance to proc GFTT & Cobra Strikes. We know that we get a 10% bonus to steady damage too with the glyph, though counterbalancing that is the extra 20% per GCD by glyphing for serpent sting.

The T7 set bonuses could swing something towards Steady's way if there are any additional bonuses tied to steady.

The ladies like the bestial wrath, they don't appreciate the rapid fire.

 

KraxisSingular

Doesn't the Serpent Sting just prolong the damage it does? I mean 3 seconds more to do the same damage.

 

Asmolicious

One would assume it would function in a similar fashion to imp Shadow Word: Pain. Whereby the DPS of the sting remains the same (it will still tick for the same amount) but it adds an additional 3 seconds. If you are BM / SV this will mean that you get to reapply it after an extra 2 GCDs than you would normally by getting this glyph.

In short, for a 3 minute fight you would have to apply serpent sting 12 times normally. By having serpent sting last longer you would only need to apply it 10 times. So in place of those 2 extra reapplications you will have some form of instant damage shot instead.

So because you are able to get more special shots in per fight you will do more damage as a result.

The ladies like the bestial wrath, they don't appreciate the rapid fire.

 

huntcaudata

I know this is a abilities and talents discussion, not a gear discussion, so feel free to ignore me.

Is anyone else concerned about all of the haste rating present on mail gear showing up in beta, including every single piece of the T7 set? It looks like we're being screwed out of a whole lot of iLevel.

 

Rivkah

I'm concerned about the ridiculous amount of haste gear for everyone honestly. I haven't looked too closely at the epics but if you look at all the green quest rewards while leveling up it's just piles and piles of haste for all classes. Trinkets alone there's like 7 haste trinkets from quests. Blizzard's itemization team really has some strange issues.

 

TrevvyTrev

This is correct. I tested the glyph on beta and it doesn't add an extra full damage "tick" as we originally thought, it just spreads the same amount of damage over 18 seconds instead of 15. The idea seems to be to lower the amount of times you have to refresh it (for those effects that do something as long as a target is afflicted with your sting) instead of boosting its damage.

See above. The dps goes down with the glyph (it ticks for less than otherwise) but the overall damage stays the same.