Cranch

We haven't seen the 40 hit scopes yet (if any), which would be even better. I was in fact comparing 30 hit to 40 crit; 40 haste rating isn't in the running if you're at the 1.5 sec or better steady shot speed. Also, 1 hit rating has always trumped 1 crit rating until you are at your desired hit cap (using the spreadsheet models.)

 

Chul

New Beta build changes for Hunters (curtesy of WotlkWiki):

EDIT: Added more changes.

 

steamrice

Yep this recent patch is nerfs all across the board, and it's not just us.

Some more

Cobra Strikes - 2 special crits (was 3)
Invigoration - 50/100% chance for 1% mana (was 1/2% mana)

 

Bovii

So what is the point of LnL now? That is 3 talent points invested for next to no return. Granted, I realize that the impact with traps was obscene (with all of the vids, it was grotesque). But this change pretty much remodels the entire SV build concept as SS just lost a lot of steam.

 

Sartuk

From a raiding perspective, LnL has really been nerfed into the ground. It's really sad, because I was quite enjoying the boost in the few Naxx runs I've done on beta. Sadly, 1 extra shot just isn't enough.

For PvP, losing the chance to stun on explosive shot is a big hit too. Possibly (Re: probably) a necessary one, but a sad one nonetheless. Would've rather they just reduced the chance, or reduced the chance and made it just proc off crits. Oh well.

 

Kaejin

... what?

Wow. What?

They made Wing Clip even worse? Which classes do they expect us to get away from using a 30% snare? Seriously, what? Is this to help free up keybindings?

Glyph of Aimed Shot now half as effective. Good thing no one was going to use it anyway.

L&L I can understand from a PvP perspective. Three Explosive Shots in a row is extremely powerful. Side effect is that it's not extremely bad for PvE. I think they could have handled it better, like maybe making the three Arcane/Explosive Shots that use the L&L charges do reduced damage.

The crit chance reduction on T.N.T. upsets me a bit, but the change to the stun mechanic makes sense.

Kill Shot still knocks you down, right? I don't know if the change is going to boost or reduces damage (first glance makes it seem like a nerf), but it's still not going to get much use outside of 1v1 PvP.

Master's Call can't be used while stunned? So now you can only use it on party members and when you're snared, more or less. Gee wiz.

Way to nerf a talent only BM hunters were going to end up getting thanks to Careful Aim. How did they even figure it needed a nerf? BM hunters were doing the least amount of raid DPS last I heard.

This is just frustrating.

According to the official talent calc, Explosive Shot and Immo Trap still have the chance to stun. They just changed it from when they do damage to when they initially effect the target. That's not unreasonable, considering all of those skills deal damage multiple times.

 

Catalept

This looks like a case of PvP toxicity poisoning the PvE water-supply. At three shots, LnL offered significant (too much, apparently) on-the-move burst damage in PvP and a moderate increase in PvE DPS. Now it's been changed to a reasonable PvP ability and a very underwhelming PvE one. At that point in the SV talent tree, though, our options are extremely limited.

 

Kaejin

Armor Pen seems to have been changed to a rating now, as well. Not strictly hunter news, but still.

 

Chul

Some quick maths on the new AotV:

* Aspect of the Viper - Now each ranged attack regenerates a percentage of maximum mana equal to base ranged weapon speed, down from 100% of damage done. Still incurs 50% less damage.

Assume 10k mana, each shot will give us ~3% mana. Hunters will be firing around 1.2-1.4 shots per second, so that is 330-420 mana per second depending on spec and weapon speed. JoW gives ~50 mana per second.

 

Sartuk

If that's the case, then that's really not too bad. Perfectly reasonable change, I suppose, as it previously had, what, a ~39% chance per shot to proc the stun considering the extra 2 tics could proc it as well. That's a bit crazy in a PvP setting, absolutely, especially when combined with a LnL proc. For what it's worth, the reduction on crit doesn't bother me that much. Considering how much crit survival hunters have, I can deal with a lower %. Doesn't tick me off too much, really.

I assume the LnL change was with PvP in mind, as well. Totally destroys the fun of it in PvE, though, and that's a damn shame. With the proc chances for LnL from serpent sting the % it currently is, and with how easy it generally is to avoid a silly little trap in PvP, I'm not so sure I'd really want to even spend the 3 points there in a PvP build. Maybe that's just (slight) annoyance speaking over logic, but I dunno.

Agreed almost entirely. The extra shots in PvP was just far too much burst (1v1 it wrecked faces, and almost guaranteed you at least one two second stun in addition...in group PvP, you could just pop it on 3 different people, which again, was crazy) for us to have, especially, as you pointed out, that it was all mobile damage.

In PvE, the boost from the old LnL was decent, I felt. Maybe not even as good as I thought, since the biggest joy was seeing numbers and explosions. Still, as you said, the choices in the tree at that point in regards to PvE aren't outstanding. And they still aren't, even with the change. Although, strictly in terms of PvE, I might even take Improved FD over LnL now. The increase in raiding DPS it gives now is just completely awful (no, I haven't done the math, but with my *limited* experience on beta, that 1 extra shot really wont be much), and honestly, I wouldn't mind having FD's resist rate cut way down.

Edit: AotV was going to change. No surprise there. I don't think it will be too bad, at least not for BM/Survival who are mana efficient to all hell and back anyway.

The deterrence change-back makes me very, very, very, very, very sad though. I was quite excited when I saw there was a benefit to using it against casters finally. Maybe they'll bring that part of it back, but just nerf it from 60% to something lower. Even 20-25% would make me gleeful.

 

Cranch

The spreadsheet had a survival build with full raid buffs already doing 6k dps with just nax10/25/5 man instance gear, so it was clear that some kind of damage reduction was needed.

I am surprised at the Master's Call and Kill Shot change. I wonder if Blizzard saw something in their private pvp testing that made these appear overpowered. Any ideas what that might have been?

Well, at least we'll get the old Kill Shot damage back at ~12500 RAP...

As a general comment, hunter dps scaled from about 1K dps (wild guess) with the best level 60 gear to about 2.5K dps with the best level 70 gear, fully raid buffed (spreadsheet values.) Assuming an intentional quadratic scaling, we would expect max hunter dps at level 80 to be roughly 1.15*lvl^2 - 2600 = ~4800 (fitting to these 2 points), and we're already well past that with all three builds and current gear. So it's quite possible we will see further dps nerfs to bring the damage curve way down. (Yes, I know the curve doesn't match your dps at say level 50 -- I am looking at endgame gearing only, so the only useful lvl values are 60,70,80,...)

Personally, I don't mind if Blizzard does that, it's their game after all, but I will miss the fun of a really large kill shot crit. And I will definitely miss calling my pet over me to give me some stun-freeing loving.

 

Catalept

Hm.. the description says the mana return happens with "Each Ranged Attack"... does that include Volley hits? Rapid Fire would synergise nicely with this, too. It's certainly a relief to see they're sticking with the new mechanic.

 

Sartuk

I never noticed Kill Shot being that "imba" in PvP, but I could be totally off. It didn't feel overpowered to me, especially considering the very weak position it puts you in after using it. I suppose it might have scaled too well as gear got better, but as it was with the premade gear I hardly ever used it.

I agree hunters (notably survival, but really all of them) were due for a DPS nerf of sorts. That's one of the reasons I have absolutely no problem with the lowering of the crit chance on Explosive Shot. My only complain about LnL is that it's now an almost utterly useless PvE talent (again, unless they make it have a slightly better chance to proc off Serpent Sting.) Lowering our raid damage is one thing, but smashing a talent into the ground is another. I could be over-reacting....in fact, I probably am. But I'm tired and cranky, so I'm allowed to

 

Kaejin

I think they could "salvage" L&L by giving the chance to proc of stings a large boost. I certainly think that's reasonable now that it's not 3 shots anymore. Maybe 50% or so at 3/3? No one is going to spam stings just to get one extra Explosive Shot, and it will make it better for PvE. Not sure how that would effect PvP, but I guess that depends on how many targets you want to tab through and apply a sting to just to get a free ES.

AotV change seems fine. Not ridiculous like it was before, but not horrible like it is in live. Testing will provide better data than speculation, though.

Deterrence going back to a flat-out no spell damage reduction makes little sense to me. Why not cut it to 30% before doing away with it entirely?

 

Sartuk

I think your ideas (and numbers, for that matter) are just about spot on. The only problem with a 50% chance would be, again, PvP, where you might have hunters spamming it on the run solely for extra explosive shots. In a perfect world, I'd have the chance to proc LnL be based per tick of serpent sting, just a much much smaller chance. I'm not sure how doable that is, or any idea what the numbers would have to be to make it even out, though.

Right on about AotV, and definitely right about Deterrence. Why they scrapped it without a nerf first just doesn't seem right to me...it's a tool that I think hunters could *really* use, especially in arena's. Maybe I'm being greedy, but the way it was didn't seem *too* rigged to me, although it probably did need a reduction to 40 or 30% like you suggested.

 

Akston

It really doesn't seem like the massive 50% damage reduction with AotV is really warranted anymore. With a 3.0 speed weapon assuming you are hitting every second you are only getting about 300 mana per second. 300 mps really isn't the kind of regen that can be used reactively to regen mana especially when you are spending mana on shots while using it.

The previous iteration was probably overpowered but the concept was nice. A significant dps hit for a short amount of time while low on mana to refill your mana and get back in the game. With this version still having the damage reduction and no longer having the burst regen it really seems underpowered. It isn't going to get you out of a mana debt quickly, which means you are spending more time doing less damage for low regen.

Assuming you only switch to AotV when you run oom and assuming you have 3.0 speed bow and a 10k mana pool you will spend 33 seconds doing 50% damage to refill your mana pull if you are hitting ever second and this is without figuring in mana spent on shots during this time not to mention the 2s used on gcds to switch into and out of AotV.

 

Sartuk

I think the damage reduction should definitely stay in some form. But you're right, maybe the 50% is a bit too high. I'll see how it looks tomorrow when I can actually play. Maybe something along the lines of 25% would be more fitting.

 

Grogzor

The good thing about the Kill Shot change is now it scales much much better then previous.

I still do not see their thinking behind nerfing Wing Clip...its pretty much worthless now. Why waste the cooldown when I could instead cast Disengage that 1.5 second earlier? Or use a trap?

I hope they give comments on why they gave each change.

But when it comes time for me to remove your wings, and you, you must try to fly...

Click Here to see what makes me tic(k).

What Are You Going to Roll for Warhammer Online?

 

takel

Well, I hate being pessimistic and negative, but I will have to admit my spirits hit the floor when I saw some of these changes.

First, the changes I disagree with:
Wing Clip: Barely a snare. I'd say it's a secondary melee DPS ability with Mongoose Bite now.
Lock and Load: Not a very good way to handle it IMHO. Yes, it was making me giddy just thinking how it'll effect melee DPS trying to get in our faces. Numbers might be tweaked a bit up since Blizzard is fond of over nerfing then tweaking back up, but we'll see.
Master's Call: So the purpose of this ability is... ?
Aspect Mastery: Mixed on this. The change to the AotH section equates to 60 raw AP.
Imp. Steady Shot: I napkin mathed this talent to equate to a 9% mana reduction for 3 talent points for a 'standard' cycle and a bonus of slightly more DPS. A high-end replacement for Efficiency really. This halves it to 4.5%, which is worse than Efficiency. I don't think this is a worthwhile talent now.
Deterrence: Did the casters whinge again? Instead of resist, give us a damage reduction from spell damage and effects then.


I honestly cannot fathom the reasoning behind changing Imp. Steady Shot. The talent was barely worth the talent points as a DPS boost, and it was only really saved by the mana cost reduction. Given a 3 steady + 1 chimera cycle, you expect 3 chances to proc the talent. That's a 38.6% chance you will have the proc when your Chimera comes off CD. That equates to a 5.8% increase in Chimera Shot. Depending on what portion of our DPS Chimera will make up, this could be around a 1.8% overall increase assuming 40% personal comes from Chimera and Hunter/Pet is 80:20, which is a pretty stacked set of numbers. For three talent points.

In terms of mana, this is what the current Imp Steady provides:
Steady Shot costs 4% base mana. Chimera is 16%. As the standard cycle is three steadies and one chimera, this means you'll spend 28% of your base mana in one cycle. With a 38.6% up time, Chimera drops to around 13.5% base mana, which comes out to be a 9% drop in mana consumption for a standard cycle. 3% mana reduction per talent point versus 2% for Efficiency.

Halve that and you have a talent providing 1.5% mana reduction and 0.3-0.6% DPS per talent point. Maybe not quite as bad as you mgith think for a 'hybrid' talent, but it's still pretty piss poor for being so high up in the tree.

We've still got Concussive Barrage FFS and what does that do?

 

KraxisSingular

Nerf to Cobra Strikes and Invigoration?

Is it an attempt to force BM Hunters to take these talents. At 50% Invigoration won't be very interesting when it only does 1% mana. So if you want to be efficient, you need two points now. And with the nerf to Cobra Strikes you will see a lot less effectiveness. To get these points there is only one candidate, and that is Longevity. I don't like that idea. Well, perhaps BM won't need any internal manaregen in raids with JoW and Replenishment.
Cobra Strikes, weak for DPS before, weaker now. Regen less nice. What is the point anymore? Unless the new specials hit a lot harder.

I wonder if AotV will be worth casting shot in anymore. Would it be better to just sit back and Auto (perhaps pop Rapid now that it is a relatively weak DPS skill) than ontinue DPS spam... I'm leaning towards lazy-regen.

Aspect Mastery. Did it need a nerf? Well apparently it did. We still gain 90 AP (pretty weak at 80 honestly) and rthe Viper bonus. That btw is relatively little value due to the manaregen being unlinked from actual damage. 60% damage is still quite weak. If it increased the manareturn somehow, like "increases the mana returned by X%" then it would feel nicer. Or perhaps the wording should be "your weapon is now treated as X% slower."

The entire Survival deal just feels very unfortunate. The LnL idea is good, but once more PvP manages to screw up what was a good PvE ability. Soemthing needs to be returned as now LnL looks to be very weak. Looks like a good filler nothing more, and fillers is what Survival is full of.

 

Kaejin

You're definitely right about the 50% damage reduction on AOTV being overboard now. That's far too much of a DPS hit now that we're going to be spending more than a few moments with it up.


This nerf to Wingclip is probably the most mystifying thing Blizzard has ever done in recent memory. I hardly even cared about it after they changed it to 50%, but now I find myself most angry that they made it even more useless. It's like they're trying to bully us or something. I'm still having random fits of delirious laughter.

Looking forward to the inevitable 5-minute cooldown being added to Eagle Eye!

 

Nakari

They also nerfed Warlock's Curse of Exhaustion from 50% to 30%, so I assume they want ranged clasees to have much less powerful snares than melee classes...can't say I agree with that (especially when we can't use our ranged abilities in melee like warlocks can), but I guess we'll have to wait and see how it pans out.

About AotV: Doesn't the new implementation massively benefit slower weapons? If the mana restore is ranged weapon speed as percent, then it restores 1,15% mana/second for auto shots, but 1,5 (assuming one special shot per GCD) * WeaponSpeed for specials. Maybe I'm wrong (it's 5 o'clock in the morning here ), but that was my first thought when seeing it....

Edit: Typos... lots of 'em.

 

KraxisSingular

Exhaustion is 30% on live. 50% with Amplify Curse. So their's got boosted, then returned to normal. Ours got nerfed, then nerfed again and it is a melee ability. It is a most puzzling move. Does Disengage really work that well? Is that the thought behind it? Perhaps it is meant to be a real DPS ability in melee? It can't possibly be inteded to help us get out of melee any longer, right?

AoTV... No it is based on base weaponspeed. So a 3.0 speed weapon will always return 3%, a 2.0 speed will return 2% per shot. Yes, that benefits the slower weapon more due to the same amount of cast shots which aren't equal in return (or perhaps Steady is counted as a 2.0 speed weapon?).

 

Septus

Lock and Load seems very questionable now. You use explosive shot, wait 1.5 seconds, use a sting which procs LnL, wait another 1.5 seconds, and now you've shaved off 3 seconds, one time, on a 6 second cooldown ability. That seems more than a little harsh.

 

Berfert

It seems to me that this isn't any better than the current implementation. Assuming you stick to autoshot to get the values you list and out of AotV asap, you're looking at doing like 25-30% of your normal damage (50% damage, no AotH, no specials) for something like 45 seconds. Someone else will need to do the math with specials in the mix, but it just doesn't seem all that useful.

Honestly, the massive list of nerfs seems like they just went way overboard. I sincerely hope there's a round of balancing "back up" (ie, to make LnL at ALL useful in PvE).