The balance team did a sweep of the talents and made modifications they felt necessary to keep the talents and abilities in budget. We've since done a second pass of what they came up with (which you see in this build) and made further changes. Our latest changes are not in this build you have now.
Some of the changes will stay, some will be reverted, and some will be re-designed. Lock and Load was just too much burst with 3 charges, and the balance guys changed it to 1. We're going to up it to 2. Also going to make it have a chance to proc from Sting periodic ticks rather than the initial hit.
If you have feedback on specific changes please provide that.
They're balancing things based on point budget rather than the impact to the class for this patch. Next patch some of these will change, but we don't know what or when.
Lock and Load seems very questionable now. You use explosive shot, wait 1.5 seconds, use a sting which procs LnL, wait another 1.5 seconds, and now you've shaved off 3 seconds, one time, on a 6 second cooldown ability. That seems more than a little harsh.
Given that the Serpent Sting glyph is basically mandatory for PvE, and it will be the only sting we use 99% of the time, the expected proc-rate of LnL is once every 120 seconds. It's worth remembering that LnL procs don't give you a free ES/AS... they allow you to replace a Steady with one. So once every two minutes, we'll get to replace a Steady with an Explosive. Making some fairly reasonable assumptions, I calculate the return in PvE DPS from Lock'n'load to be approximately equal to Planck's constant.
I think it's safe to say that if LnL wasn't a PvP-only talent before, it sure is now.
Which leaves us, at tier 3, having to put 7 points into talents that have little or no direct effect on DPS (assuming 3/3 Surefooted), although 5 of those need to put dropped into Survivalist to unlock HvW.
Edit: Okay, so they're making it proc on a per-tick basis for two shots. However, unless the proc rate is very high, the small damage-gain from swapping a few extra Steadies for Explosives every minute still seems a little weak given the rule-of-thumb target of +1% damage per talent point.
I'll be the first to say that doesn't make me happy. Perhaps no longer beside myself, but it's still only a 50% snare and a shadow of it's former self.
A thought about the new AotV: Perhaps this is their veiled attempt to get hunters to want haste rating. It's based on base weapon speed, so haste essentially increases our mana regen with AotV up.
I'll be the first to say that doesn't make me happy. Perhaps no longer beside myself, but it's still only a 50% snare and a shadow of it's former self.
A thought about the new AotV: Perhaps this is their veiled attempt to get hunters to want haste rating. It's based on base weapon speed, so haste essentially increases our mana regen with AotV up.
A) That would require them to make slow enough weapons to take advantage of that
B) Wouldn't that then make it better for itemization if they took off the Haste Rating and invested it in Intellect with the original AotV?
Hey guys I really hate to be doing this but I just got my beta key and search results of the thread looking for the primary builds right now are leading me to a mess of nothing of full relevance. Was just wondering if someone could point me in the direction of some of the staple builds for the 3 trees right now. Planning on getting the client installed and working on getting the feel for the class and the builds then trying naxx out. But I am just so out of the loop on all the intricacies of the talents that I am really at a loss... Any help is appreciated and I really did hate doing this but thanks.
The way I see it (raid-buffed): 12k mana pool, 5k base, BM spec
Auto shot (say 2,9 base speed = 1,5 speed after all haste effects, which is not unrealistic): 1/1,5 = 0,67 per second
Steady Shot (say every 1,5 sec after all haste) = 1/1,5 = 0,67 per second
Total shots per second = 1,33
12k * 2,9/100 * 1,33 = 452 mana per second
At the same time you gain roughly 110 mana per second from buffs/talents (Invigoration, JoW) and spend 130 mana per second on shots (Steady Spam, 4% base of 5000 on a 1,5 sec frequency = 5000*0,04/1,5 = ~130).
Given that the Serpent Sting glyph is basically mandatory for PvE, and it will be the only sting we use 99% of the time, the expected proc-rate of LnL is once every 120 seconds. It's worth remembering that LnL procs don't give you a free ES/AS... they allow you to replace a Steady with one. So once every two minutes, we'll get to replace a Steady with an Explosive. Making some fairly reasonable assumptions, I calculate the return in PvE DPS from Lock'n'load to be approximately equal to Planck's constant.
I think it's safe to say that if LnL wasn't a PvP-only talent before, it sure is now.
Which leaves us, at tier 3, having to put 7 points into talents that have little or no direct effect on DPS (assuming 3/3 Surefooted), although 5 of those need to put dropped into Survivalist to unlock HvW.
Edit: Okay, so they're making it proc on a per-tick basis for two shots. However, unless the proc rate is very high, the small damage-gain from swapping a few extra Steadies for Explosives every minute still seems a little weak given the rule-of-thumb target of +1% damage per talent point.
I dont think this is an unreasonable change. Four explosive shots in a row, from a PvP perspective, is very powerfull. I think that two free shots (meaning you can chain three in a row) seems fitting. Especially with the chance to proc off a sting, which surely is a buff, if the 15% chance is retained. That means that during a 18 second serpent sting (glyphed) you have 6 chances of proccing LaL, giving you a 90% chance to proc at some point during the 18 second duration - and if the initial shot can proc it aswell, you get a theoretical 105% chance to proc LaL each 18 seconds. Disregarding that, going per tick, you have a 5% chance to proc LaL each second, giving you 3 procs per minute - on paper, ofcourse.
Still, its a lot better than to have it proc only on the initial hit.
I dont think this is an unreasonable change. Four explosive shots in a row, from a PvP perspective, is very powerfull. I think that two free shots (meaning you can chain three in a row) seems fitting. Especially with the chance to proc off a sting, which surely is a buff, if the 15% chance is retained. That means that during a 18 second serpent sting (glyphed) you have 6 chances of proccing LaL, giving you a 90% chance to proc at some point during the 18 second duration - and if the initial shot can proc it aswell, you get a theoretical 105% chance to proc LaL each 18 seconds. Disregarding that, going per tick, you have a 5% chance to proc LaL each second, giving you 3 procs per minute - on paper, ofcourse.
Still, its a lot better than to have it proc only on the initial hit.
Firstly, I sincerely doubt they'll keep the proc-rate the same, only changing it to 'per tick'.
Secondly, from a PvE perspective, LnL just allows you to replace one special with a slightly higher damage one. From a PvP perspective, however, it allows you to replace a 1.5-second cast with an instant... as I said, in the case of LnL, I'm just not sure that there's a middle ground where it's useful in both, but not OP in either.
LnL as it stood was a tad too powerful in my opinion (and that of many others). AotV was a tad bit too much, but the size of the nerf they gave it was OTT. Somewhere between where it was and where it is now should be okay. Really glad that they're staying with the damage gimp + huge mana leech mechanic, that way aspects really feel the way they should IMO -- like warrior stances or druid forms, its a different tool and it does things in a different way, rather then now where it's just AP+haste proc vs mp5.
Wing Clip is being balanced by people on drugs.
With the new change to LnL (it proccing off sting ticks as well), my earlier question of Chimera Shot's sting reapplication counting as a sting for purposes of proccing LnL has become less relevant. Consider the following level 80 build. I put surefooted there to keep options open, obviously it depends on what WotLK itemization will end up being, most likely it is not required and even people who casually PVP may consider silencing shot.
As it stands now RWS is probably a better talent than Imp SS, even though LnL's change may get us extra arcane shots (with the potential of hurting more), but I took it anyway because I'm convinced they'll buff it up just a little. For endgame hunters right now, remember, that proc chance should be about the same as your Ashtongue trinket is right now (a bit less because SS will have a longer casting time), and it only increases the damage done on one extra shot.
Basically, LnL procs cause free arcane shots, and the MM tree is there to make sure they hurt.
This is, of course, entirely dependent on what they make the proc chance off sting ticks. I'd have to see what they end up making it and then run the numbers to figure out if it competes with IAoTH/ImpKC/ImpRP (I know that isn't a pure DPS talent, but I sure as hell don't mind having it in my build as BM atm).
EDIT: As the person above me said while I was writing this post: the odds of LnL staying 15% off ticks are slim. Considering the SSting glyph is a requirement for PvE anyway and we will be keeping SSting up 24/7, giving it 15% off SSting ticks would pretty much make it more powerful than it was previously in a raid setting.
The alternative is only partially going into SV and picking up FF, IAotH and Aspect Mastery as Shenlong said earlier. I guess a fuzzy factor we can't really model yet without seeing the raids is how much our pets die. Thankfully it seems like we can get HoTP/BT anyway so as long as it doesn't die all the time (10 minute CD) we should be OK. Bloodthirsty basically reduces it to a mana issue anyway (and a DPS issue because you're spending 10 seconds casting).
The one i linked has the better stats and higher ilevel. I cannot explain why the setbonus says 10 man but i guess they are still working on both sets since the current 10 man set has no setbonuses. Also notice the setbonus saying cryptstalker armor not valourus crypstalker armor so W.I.P.
That'd mean ~16s to get to 60% mana. Compared to evocation that gives 60% mana for 8s of doing zero damage, that sounds pretty reasonable?
More than reasonable given (1) it's not on a CD (2)doesn't require 8s uninterrupted channeling and (3)you do more than 50% of your DPS while channeling (I assume pet's DPS doesn't halve).
The added bonus of applying it as many times as you like for whatever duration you need is definitely a plus; on long-winded multi-add bosses you could even work it into your cycles: Switch it on whenever a new add comes to avoid pulling, regen a little, back off again. Or, say you get a FD resist, turn to mana-battery mode instead of switching off attack; you still throttle TPS but keep at least a modicum of DPS and regen to boot.
Or, say you get a FD resist, turn to mana-battery mode instead of switching off attack; you still throttle TPS but keep at least a modicum of DPS and regen to boot.
That is a excellent idea indeed.
The only downside is since FD is a total aggro wipe, in most fights a resisted FD is only critical in the start of the fight(first 30 seconds) and during that period we have 80%+ mana pools anyways. If i FD at brutallus at the 3 minute mark there is no more reason to waste a gcd on FDing. But okay 100%>80%.
09/11/08, 1:44 AM
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