WotLK DPS spreadsheet - Page 101

Screechbythebell · 05/19/09, 9:39 PM

Just a small typo, when I was loading my gear from the armory, I had the argent tourney lance equipped and it gave me this error...

"Argent Lance not found, would you like to load it from Armpory," or something to that effect.

Whitemane · 05/20/09, 12:06 AM

As one poster earlier noted, my pet has never even approached the dps numbers that the spreadsheet says he should be putting out. Spreadsheet says somewhere around 1100 DPS but I have never even come close to that, I regularly see my pet around 800 DPS and I am fairly sure I've tuned the spreadsheet according to my real raiding conditions. Has anyone actually managed to to get that much? And of course WWS is down so I can't post any numbers myself.

http://wowwebstats.com/6wajxi5t3xs4a...4035ceeb000d0c

874 dps.

Lafali · 05/20/09, 12:24 AM

I'm sorry if this sounds like a dumb question, but I have never been able to import from the armory, and have always manually imported my gear. I use Excel 2007 if that makes any difference.

Rezdan · 05/20/09, 12:46 AM

Whitemane, there are quite a few things I noticed when looking through your pet's WWS.

1. Dash buff applied twice - means you changed targets at least once during the fight resulting in pet movement and lost pet dps
2. Low uptime on 10% AP TSA had 65% uptime, Unleashed Rage had 26%, Abominable Might had 10% - I didn't check to see if there was any overlap but it seems like your pet could possibly have spent some time without this buff.
3. 2min2sec presence with a 1.25 sec Pet global would be a maximum of 96 pet globals whereas your pet only did 45 claws and 7 rakes and 3 rabids
4. Rabid was only up for 45 seconds even though it was casted 3 times. It should at least be 3 * 20sec = 60sec of uptime even if it doesn't get refreshed.

Whitemane · 05/20/09, 1:28 AM

1. No, did not change targets - Steelbreaker is the ONLY target alive in this fight.

0:00'05.891 Damocles melee swing hits Steelbreaker for 1029 Physical. (Critical) #1471969
0:00'06.037 Damocles gains Dash. #1471987
0:00'06.113 Damocles gains 0 Pet Happiness from Bloodthirsty. #1472045
0:00'07.057 Damocles gains 0 Pet Happiness from Bloodthirsty. #1472270
0:00'07.057 Damocles melee swing hits Steelbreaker for 332 Physical. (Glancing) #1472273

I don't know why that happens, but it did for whatever reason. Possibly Steelbreaker moved slightly and dash was autocast when the pet moved? It meant nothing though, 1.2 seconds is approximately what the swing timer is. My assumption is that the second application of dash follows the exact same pattern.

Rabid seems a bit odd here. It seems to suggest that Rabid is not on the GCD but invokes GCD? Can't quite make sense of it.

0:00'24.477 Damocles Claw was dodged by Steelbreaker. #1476612
0:00'25.108 Steelbreaker suffers 182 Physical damage from Damocles Rake. #1476826
0:00'25.285 Damocles gains Rabid. #1476840
0:00'26.579 Damocles Claw hits Steelbreaker for 833 Physical. (Critical) #1477223

2. TSA, UR and AM does not just fall off - it was up, 100% of the time. Okay, maybe not 100% but at least 99.8%.

3. That could be true, but that would mean hunters should really get the second point in GftT.

Actually looking at the log, it seems there are periods where the pet is focus starved. My crit values seem slightly low for my gear, but still should reach the generally accepted values of where 1/2 in GftT is enough.

Wow Web Stats

4. Not if it dies shortly after applying Rabid Power for the third time. It gets despawned 5-6 seconds after the third rabid, which would make the uptime just what it is reported as being.

0:00'25.285 Damocles gains Rabid. #1476840
0:00'37.748 Damocles gains Rabid Power. #1479614
0:00'41.352 Damocles gains Rabid Power (2). #1480521
0:00'45.361 Damocles Rabid was removed from Damocles. #1481480
0:00'45.361 Damocles Rabid Power was removed from Damocles. #1481481
0:01'10.632 Damocles gains Rabid. #1486872
0:01'11.493 Damocles gains Rabid Power. #1487126
0:01'14.676 Damocles gains Rabid Power (2). #1487870
0:01'18.291 Damocles gains Rabid Power (3). #1488725
0:01'19.496 Damocles gains Rabid Power (4). #1488948
0:01'29.997 Damocles gains Rabid Power (5). #1491931
0:01'30.698 Damocles Rabid was removed from Damocles. #1492089
0:01'30.698 Damocles Rabid Power was removed from Damocles. #1492090
0:01'56.432 Damocles gains Rabid. #1498786
0:02'00.036 Damocles gains Rabid Power. #1499744

The only explanation I can see is that the pet was focus starved at times and that it didn't have the lvl 80 Kibler's bits. But even fixing that does not lead me to believe that a pet could reasonably do 1100 DPS, a 230 dps increase. I will however for next council, try to respec and get 2/2 GffT and see how much of a dps difference it does.

Rezdan · 05/20/09, 1:50 AM

Yeah, the second Dash looks like it only caused skipping one Pet special and not any lost melee damage.

I'm not suggesting that TSA fell totally off, just that possibly your pet became OOR. If you left him on Steelbreaker the whole time then its understandable that at some points he may have just been too far from you or the others providing the 10% AP buff and even at the same time that they stopped providing the buff.

Yes, your pet was not able to make full use of the final and third Rabid. You could also say that Rabid isn't casting as fast as it should or as early in the fight as possible since the first one casted 25seconds in. Casting it earlier would of course mean higher uptime but possibly that 25sec mark is when he first came in contact with his target.
5sec: Rabid 1 - until 25sec mark minimum
50sec: Rabid 2 - until 110sec mark minimum
135sec; Rabid 3 - until 155sec mark minimum

Please don't take my posts as criticism by the way, its just the nature of how the spreadsheet works that our pets will almost never match what it theoretically could especially with how GftT is hugely dependant on RNG.

Whitemane · 05/20/09, 2:00 AM

I'm not taking it as criticsm, we're just trying to find out why pets don't perform as per the spreadsheet aren't we?

Rabid was probably activated on Brundir and isn't ready yet. That will skew the results some. Also as I already mentioned, Steelbreaker was the only mob left alive and as such the range issues are non existant. 100% uptime on 10% AP.

Grummy · 05/20/09, 2:25 AM

Previous to today's patch, I noticed a significant DPS increase (200-300) for my pet when my spec had 2/2 in GFTT. I made this change for the same reason you seem to have discovered, which is that my pet was getting focus starved. For my current gear with 1/2 in GFTT and explosive shot ticks not generating focus, my pet does not get focus starved according to the spreadsheet, but he certainly does in raids. But, because of GFTT, there is an inherent relationship between the hunter and the pet. If I don't have full raid buffs, or I don't optimize my rotation, etc, then my pet suffers as well. This makes debugging the situation even more difficult.

Anyways, I took a point back out of GFTT today and plan to raid tomorrow with 1/2. Hopefully the changes to explosive shot tick is enough to keep the pet from getting focus starved in a raid. Using an extremely conservative estimate of 50% crit on explosive shot, you would expect to get 1 of your 2 explosive shot ticks to now crit. Assuming 1/2 in GFTT, this will provide our pet an extra 25 focus every 6 seconds, or ~16.7 focus per 4 seconds. That's a pretty good increase in focus generation.

Rezdan · 05/20/09, 2:32 AM

I believe Whitemane was running MM that raid, Grummy, so the ExShot GftT bug wasn't affecting his pet's DPS. But yeah Whitemane, other than those possible sources of lower dps i mentioned earlier, there's nothing else that comes to mind.

Dch48 · 05/20/09, 3:03 AM

Originally Posted by Whitemane

As one poster earlier noted, my pet has never even approached the dps numbers that the spreadsheet says he should be putting out. Spreadsheet says somewhere around 1100 DPS but I have never even come close to that, I regularly see my pet around 800 DPS and I am fairly sure I've tuned the spreadsheet according to my real raiding conditions. Has anyone actually managed to to get that much? And of course WWS is down so I can't post any numbers myself.

Wow Web Stats

874 dps.

My pet actually gets very close to the damage the sheet predicts, it's me that doesn't. I am BM specced so maybe that's why.

Dch48 · 05/20/09, 3:15 AM

The latest updated sheet will not import gear from v88c. It imports the names of the profiles and all the other settings from the exported file but says that an old version is detected and it can't import the gear.

Shandara · 05/20/09, 4:48 AM

Originally Posted by Dch48

The latest updated sheet will not import gear from v88c. It imports the names of the profiles and all the other settings from the exported file but says that an old version is detected and it can't import the gear.

This is intended. I removed the Quiver selection and this breaks on importing old profiles' gear. It should import everything else and you can use the gear string feature on the overview tab to move the gear (be sure to delete the quiver from that though).

Considering this; I have been thinking about changing the whole way profiles are stored, since old way Cheeky did it has it drawbacks and my way as well. The only difference was the speed in which it saved/loaded.

I'm probably going to change it to match the gear string export/import, but then in an expanded version. With each cell of data named properly so it's easier to make changes when loading it.

Something like pseudo-html/xml:

<Gear>
          <Head>name=Conqueror's Scourgestalker's Helm;enchant=None;gem1=Relentless Earthsiege Diamond;gem2=Delicate Scarlet Ruby;gem3=None</Head>
          <Neck>name=Necklace of the Monkey enchant=None gem1=None gem2=None</Neck>
          ...etc
</Gear>
<Settings>
          <Disable Averaging>No</Disable Averaging>
          ...etc
</Settings>

Saving the entire block of text as binary or plain text is fairly easy and quick and the parsing can be done very quick as well.

If anyone has any good suggestions or experience with this kind of parsing/configuration-file-like programming and/or knows a pre-built way of doing this I'd be glad to hear of it. The parsers in the sheet are all very simple and straightforward and this would be a step forward.

Khallas · 05/20/09, 6:10 AM

I have tried looking many different places for this information and noticed in the spreadsheet that no change is made when using it. Glyph of Chimera Shot: How does the serpent sting portion of this shot work with the glyph? Is the damage based on the TOTAL amount of serpent sting damage that the sting can deal or the damage that the sting has dealt since the last chimera? When using the glyph in the spreadsheet, I get a zero dps change, which doesn't make sense.

dssurge · 05/20/09, 6:13 AM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

Well, that was interesting. Pre the PS 'revelation' and weaponchange my Survspec was a healthy 90 DPS ahead of my MM (2 Focused Aim), now the MM is ahead by 80. If the T8 is ever changed to include Chimera Serpent MM is will be decidedly ahead. [EDIT] Changed Explosive Shot glyph to Steady Shot PS affected by Mangle amounts to no less than 110 DPS.

What is interesting isn't that MM can be better, this has been proven for some time in the Best DPS thread, but that the crossmark is much lower down the gearrank. I still run with 2T7 and have other lesser items (and lack a considerable amount of Hit at this time). I only have the Giant's Bane, Saronite Mesh Leggings and Belt of the Betrayed from Ulduar.

...and this is why spreadsheets are only good for theoretical data. The fact that you don't have to sting everything as SV in order to do reasonable damage puts it leaps and bounds ahead of MM in low-health multi-target situations. That said, there are also situations where the Barrage talent will give you much better numbers because of AOE.

Theres bosses who spend an eternity under 20% where SV will be inherently better because of KS glyph (regardless of what the sheet says, using KS over Chim/Steady/SrS glyphs as MM is stupid in the majority of cases.) Theres bosses who heavily favor magic DPS and since SV does a greater portion of non-physical damage it is preferred...

From personal experience, Ignis, Razorscale, XT-002 (non-hard mode), Iron Council, Thorim, and maybe Mimiron are better as MM, but there are extremely good selling points for SV on all of the other encounters in Ulduar. It's fairly convenient that the BiS gear set between the 2 specs is basically identical or very close to it.

DoomSpirit · 05/20/09, 8:30 AM

Originally Posted by Rezdan

I believe Whitemane was running MM that raid, Grummy, so the ExShot GftT bug wasn't affecting his pet's DPS. But yeah Whitemane, other than those possible sources of lower dps i mentioned earlier, there's nothing else that comes to mind.

I ran through my logs, and it seems that I also have focus starvation problems running MM.
The most valuable fight was ignis, where my pet just stick his ass from beginning to end.
Result is there : 194 (*1.25 = 242s) claws for 352s of active time

I just respeced and gonna see tomorrow if it changes something.
But it won't surprise me if his dps goes up for a lot (took a point out of Imp SS)

KergeKacsa · 05/20/09, 9:11 AM

I found a bug:
When i try to give a ranged weapon speed on Custom gear tab, it's automatically converted to date

KraxisSingular · 05/20/09, 9:24 AM

Originally Posted by dssurge

...and this is why spreadsheets are only good for theoretical data. The fact that you don't have to sting everything as SV in order to do reasonable damage puts it leaps and bounds ahead of MM in low-health multi-target situations. That said, there are also situations where the Barrage talent will give you much better numbers because of AOE.

Theres bosses who spend an eternity under 20% where SV will be inherently better because of KS glyph (regardless of what the sheet says, using KS over Chim/Steady/SrS glyphs as MM is stupid in the majority of cases.) Theres bosses who heavily favor magic DPS and since SV does a greater portion of non-physical damage it is preferred...

From personal experience, Ignis, Razorscale, XT-002 (non-hard mode), Iron Council, Thorim, and maybe Mimiron are better as MM, but there are extremely good selling points for SV on all of the other encounters in Ulduar. It's fairly convenient that the BiS gear set between the 2 specs is basically identical or very close to it.

I do not disagree, and I have no intention to change spec as it is. I like Survival once the cooldowns are rolling, but I disagree that MM is 'weaker' on low health mobs. Mostly you can be a bit faster with applying Serpent Sting, like when you see a tank moving towards the target. Personally being Main Assist most of the time I more or less have to change target ahead of the pack (generally after I fire a KS), this would give me a chance to apply Serpent Sting. If the mobs are so weak that it doesn't matter with Serpent Sting then it is normally Volleytime. There are indeed a few cases where it is different, but that's less of an issue than Imp Tracking and Sniper Training is for Survival (the similar loss for MM is relatively less). Also I would add Auraiya to the MM list due to the AoE going on and the fact that you only run for one GDC most of the time. This is of course not taking the obviously bugged Explosive Trap -> LNL procs into account. If that is never fixed Surv holds an edge of course. Thorim could be an MM fight if you are in the arena with heavy burst and reliance on AoE, in hte tunnel Surv holds a defiante advantage with better manapreservance. Freya is obviously Survival as is Hodir and General Vezax (possibly the most obvious of them).

And the Chimera Shot glyph is a downgrade for me given latency and Haste, I will simply not be able to fire Chimera often enough for it overcome other glyphs (I will fire it more, but not terribly much more). The Kill Shot glyph provides a given bonus every time, Chimera Shot depends on good latency in particular and luck with Quick Shots uptime. This is exactly the issue you talk about, theoretical data. Besides MM takes more advantage of the recent weapon DPS upgrade, especially for Kill Shot, so while the Survival Kill Shot is king, the MM Kill Shot has closed the gap somewhat.

Shandara · 05/20/09, 9:45 AM

Originally Posted by KergeKacsa

I found a bug:
When i try to give a ranged weapon speed on Custom gear tab, it's automatically converted to date

This sounds like a localisation issue. What locale is your Excel?

KergeKacsa · 05/20/09, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by Shandara

This sounds like a localisation issue. What locale is your Excel?

Hungarian.

And no, we are not using dates as 2,8 or 2.8

New: If I miss-type 2,8 and I write 2.8 in the cell, then it's converted to date, and after that I can't write 2,8 in the cell, because it's converted to "1900.01.02 19:12:00".
(I don't really understand the converting method btw.

)

Maybe you should force the cell as number.

paff1 · 05/20/09, 11:59 AM

Magnetized Projectile Emitter updated stats are 415 - 708 damage, 3.00 speed, 187.1 dps.

Kharthus · 05/20/09, 2:39 PM

Originally Posted by Whitemane

As one poster earlier noted, my pet has never even approached the dps numbers that the spreadsheet says he should be putting out. Spreadsheet says somewhere around 1100 DPS but I have never even come close to that, I regularly see my pet around 800 DPS and I am fairly sure I've tuned the spreadsheet according to my real raiding conditions. Has anyone actually managed to to get that much? And of course WWS is down so I can't post any numbers myself.

http://wowwebstats.com/6wajxi5t3xs4a...4035ceeb000d0c

874 dps.

I would recheck with the new patch. I saw numbers last night much closer to the spreadsheet now that GftT has been fixed.

Seoman · 05/20/09, 4:46 PM

The 2-hand vs. dual-wield comparison is not correct on the gear planner, right?

Apathy · 05/20/09, 7:05 PM

I am getting a HUGE jump in dps with PS, much more than before. I understand Mangle and PS works now but is it really like 600dps difference?

Or am I just insane? I couldn't find any other changes.

KraxisSingular · 05/20/09, 8:27 PM

I got 110 DPS from Mangle alone with a non-bleed pet.

I think you have to look at the recently buffed weapons on top of this. And it was only this build, you used the last build?