WotLK DPS spreadsheet - Page 108

Tsook · 02/11/09, 5:02 PM

Originally Posted by Seoman

Do the pet's regular attacks get in the way of the Special Ability pet GCD?

Why would they? Just like for players, autoattacks do not incur any kind of GCD.

As for the rest of your conclusions, they look about right to me in theory. Remember that relying completely on GftT for focus regen is subject to two problems:
1) crit strings/droughts: 30% crit rate does not mean every third attack will crit. You will get strings of no crits at all, starving your pet, and you will get strings of crits right next to eachother, over-capping your pet and wasting focus.
2) movement/other responsibilities: Focus regen from BD functions perfectly regardless of what you are doing. If you rely on GftT, your pet may well be starved when you have to move or trap or any of the other various things you might do during a boss.

Seoman · 02/11/09, 5:18 PM

Good points, which are all the more reason for me to switch from 2/2 GftT and 0/2 BD to 1/2 BD and 1/2 GftT.

But more than that seems like a waste - many people, I think, waste a point or two in these talents.

Nagisamuro · 02/11/09, 7:37 PM

Originally Posted by Tsook

If you have points in longevity, your pet will use slightly less focus (since Rake will be more frequent and it's cheaper than Claw). 3/3 Longevity brings Rake cooldown down to 7 seconds. That doesn't divide evenly by 1.25, so part of longevity is wasted here in a situation where your pet always has enough focus for Claw. You'll get 6 Claws followed by a Rake with this rotation, which takes 8.75 seconds of GCD. During those 8.75 seconds you use 6*25 + 1*20 focus, or 19.43 focus per second.

Wouldn't the 3/3 Longevity rotation work out to 5 Claws + 1 Rake per 7.50 seconds of GCDs?

Elapsed	Ability	Cost	Next Rake CD
0.00	Rake	20	7.0
1.25	Claw	25
2.50	Claw	25
3.75	Claw	25
5.00	Claw	25
6.25	Claw	25
7.50	Rake	20	14.5
8.75	Claw	25
10.00	Claw	25
11.25	Claw	25
12.50	Claw	25
13.75	Claw	25
15.00	Rake	20	22.0
16.25	Claw	25
…	…	…

(5 x 25 Focus) + (1 x 20 Focus) = 145 Focus / 7.5 Seconds = 19.3333333 focus/sec

Tsook · 02/11/09, 8:13 PM

Originally Posted by Nagisamuro

Wouldn't the 3/3 Longevity rotation work out to 5 Claws + 1 Rake per 7.50 seconds of GCDs?

Yep, you're right.

Thelynas · 02/12/09, 3:28 AM

I get this to work finally and apparently i have the trial version of Office on this laptop and i can't "unprotect" the sheet so i can actually modify the values, keeps asking for a pswd i don't have LOL. Oh well it looks nice..

Vitaro · 02/12/09, 4:52 AM

The password is built into the sheet on purpose. You will not get it unless you are co-developing it.

There are a great number of fields that are editable by you though: usually indicated in light-yellow.

sevla · 02/12/09, 6:13 AM

Originally Posted by Seoman

Good points, which are all the more reason for me to switch from 2/2 GftT and 0/2 BD to 1/2 BD and 1/2 GftT.

But more than that seems like a waste - many people, I think, waste a point or two in these talents.

To be honest, it's not like you have much to choose besides 2/2 BD to go further on to the upper Tiers of the BM tree.
You have 2/2 Imp Mend Pet which is not really a good talent: the reduced mana cost is not a big problem with the mana regeneration you have available on raids nowadays and the dispel mechanic is awful ( having to wait 3 secs before it does the 1st check and even then you have a 50% chance to not dispel and have to wait another 3 seconds).

With 2/2 BD and 1/2 GftT you should be fine according to your calculations, and BD has the advantage pointed above that it's a reliable focus source.

You may also check somewhere on this forum the calculations about how may points are needed on Frenzy to have high uptime with 3/3 Cobra Strikes, probably 3/5 is enough, freeing 1 point to cap Animal Handler.

Bloodleaf · 02/12/09, 7:58 AM

Originally Posted by Thelynas

I get this to work finally and apparently i have the trial version of Office on this laptop and i can't "unprotect" the sheet so i can actually modify the values, keeps asking for a pswd i don't have LOL. Oh well it looks nice..

AFAIk You can't edit even the unprotected cells with the trial version of office.
It's nothing more than a documentviewer.

@Spreadsheet
In v84 Agi lost another 7% in value, now it's down to 1,19 DPS per point (down from 1,26 in last 83ish version and 1,36 before that).
Does anyone know why?
I can't see any reason for that in the changelog.

also [Armguard of the Tower Archer] and [Wristwraps of the Cutthroat] should be from "25-man Token" not just "WotlK-Token"

Innersakura · 02/12/09, 1:17 PM

Originally Posted by Seoman

Postscript: On the Pet Calculations tab, I'm not sure I completely understand how the spreadsheet derives the "CrittingShotsPerSecond" number in F32, labeled "Hunter Shots per Sec" or the "CompositShotCritRate" in F33 labeled "Critical Hit chance". Maybe someone can explain? Also, the second number differs from what shows up on the Gear tab, since it seems to include Survival Instincts. I'm not sure why the number on the Gear tab doesn’t include Survival Instincts. Anyone know?

I was initially confused about it as well, which led to an erroneous assumption in one of my previous posts.

"CrittingShotsPerSecond" actually means the number shots per second that are able to crit. The "TotalShotsPerSecond" value on the Shot Rotation sheet includes stings in it's calculation. If you remove Serpent Sting from the rotation, you will see that the "CrittingShotsPerSecond" is now exactly the same as "TotalShotsPerSecond"

As for "CompositeShotCritRate", yes it includes "Survival Instincts", "Imp Barrage", "T.N.T", "Sniper Training"(Pre-3.1), "Glyph of Trueshot Aura", and Rift Stalkers 4-piece set bonus. The Gear tab only shows the base Crit Chance. I do agree that the Composite Crit Chance as well as the individual crit rates of each shot should be more visible in the sheet.

Seoman · 02/12/09, 1:27 PM

@ Nagisamuro - thanks for keeping us honest

@ sevla

I do currently have 2/2 IMP, and you make a good point about the flimsy IMP mana benefit.

To put numbers to it, 2/2 IMP saves 20% of 9% base mana each time MP is cast, which is 1.8% of base mana. I have 14355 mana right now, so without IMP, MP costs me 1292, with it it costs me 1034. It saves me 258 mana - basically, one Steady or Arcane - each time I cast MP, which is how often - on average once or twice per boss fight max? Still, the dispel is probably good for a few saves (or Heart of the Phoenix cooldowns, however you look at it), since healers (rightfully) cleanse pets last, if at all.

Anyone else have an opinion on IMP?

In terms of what the options for the points are, in order to get to 35 points and advance further down the tree, you essentially have to spend 4 talent points between 0/2 Animal Handler, 0/2 Improved Mend Pet, 0/2 Bestial Discipline, upgrading Frenzy from 3/5 to 4/5, and I guess upgrading Endurance Training up from 1/5. (The other options - Pathfinding, Catlike Reflexes, ImpAoM and Thick Hide (white damage only) are all non-starters for me. Anyone find PvE value in any of them?)

From the whole analysis above, I'm certainly seeing the DPS value to putting at least 1 point in BD. Using the spreadsheet, nothing that is left has any direct impact on DPS other than 2/2 Animal Handler. (The spreadsheet has the 4th point in Frenzy as a minor increase.) Then the last point. I guess it comes down to what's more valuable - the second point in BD, a point in IMP for the cleansing chance, another point in Endurance Training for general survivability, or the 4th point in Frenzy for a seemingly slight DPS boost. I think for me it would come down to BD or Frenzy. Endurance Training is a nice idea but the health boost is really tiny. I wish I didn't have to put the first point in there.

I will check out 3/5 Frenzy vs. 4/5 Frenzy on the forum and report back, but I think I'd go with the Frenzy. I can't think of too many fights where I'm occupied for solid chunks of time doing things other than shooting, such that the extra point in BD would be important to keep my cat from becoming focus starved.

Seoman · 02/12/09, 1:32 PM

@ Innersakura

Good info - thanks. Makes a lot of sense.

Originally Posted by Innersakura

"CrittingShotsPerSecond" actually means the number shots per second that are able to crit. The "TotalShotsPerSecond" value on the Shot Rotation sheet includes stings in it's calculation. If you remove Serpent Sting from the rotation, you will see that the "CrittingShotsPerSecond" is now exactly the same as "TotalShotsPerSecond"

So, even though stings can crit, and are ranged attacks, they can't cause GftT to give the pet focus? I'd be happy if they did it just on the initial crit, not each tick.

TrevvyTrev · 02/12/09, 1:50 PM

Originally Posted by Seoman

@ Innersakura

So, even though stings can crit, and are ranged attacks, they can't cause GftT to give the pet focus? I'd be happy if they did it just on the initial crit, not each tick.

No, they can't crit, which is why he was saying that the "crittingshotspersecond" will equal "totalshotspersecond" if you remove stings from the rotation. If you leave them in, then total shots increases while critting shots stays the same, because you are adding more shots that can't crit.

Esoth · 02/12/09, 1:51 PM

Originally Posted by Seoman

So, even though stings can crit, and are ranged attacks, they can't cause GftT to give the pet focus? I'd be happy if they did it just on the initial crit, not each tick.

Serpent sting cannot crit.

Edit - too slow to beat Trevy, sigh.

Seoman · 02/12/09, 2:12 PM

Got it now - thanks Esoth and Trevvy

According to the spreadsheet, 1/2 BD to 2/2 BD is no help to me at all, since I have 1/2 GftT. 3/5 Frenzy to 4/5 Frenzy is a small DPS boost. Very small.

We are sure Frenzy is modeling correctly, right? I haven't seen a hue and cry about it, I don't think. And this whole analysis of focus regen confirms for me that the spreadsheet knows its stuff.

What to do with that talent point! Suggestions?

Faerdael · 02/12/09, 2:32 PM

Originally Posted by Seoman

Got it now - thanks Esoth and Trevvy

According to the spreadsheet, 1/2 BD to 2/2 BD is no help to me at all, since I have 1/2 GftT. 3/5 Frenzy to 4/5 Frenzy is a small DPS boost. Very small.

We are sure Frenzy is modeling correctly, right? I haven't seen a hue and cry about it, I don't think. And this whole analysis of focus regen confirms for me that the spreadsheet knows its stuff.

What to do with that talent point! Suggestions?

While on the spreadsheet it may not indicate any value, don't be so quick to judge focus regen issues based completly on that. It is, after all, averaging out Go for the Throat focus regen. As pretty much anyone who raided with a windserpent in TBC can attest to, focus regen doesn't really work in practice how the spreadsheet averages it out. You will end up with more focus regen than you can hold at some points, and dry spells at others, so be careful there.