dssurge

I'm using boss parses from a large sample of fights, some of which have different mechanics and aren't just stand still encounters. Although the spreadsheet seems intended to be a Patchwerk test, it does influence how people gear themselves for all encounters, not just Patchwerk.

On our last Vezax, I have ~30-35% steady shot time (calculated/estimated by total steady shot cast time * cast speed / fight duration) by simply SSing in Viper between Shadow Crashes and keeping a normal rotation in the cloud and have ~10% uptime across over 20 log parses, all of which are over 4 minutes in duration.

For Ignis, of the 3 parses I can find (the guy who logs for us is late on Tuesdays now and then), all of which are sub 4-minutes, the average uptime is ~15%, but Ignis is almost an exception to the rule, and still below the 18% value the spreadsheet assumes. Aside from XT, it's the only real standstill fight in the instance (assuming you don't have trash control duty.)

Iron Council is the only other fight I can find with consistently good uptime on Precision Shots, hovering around 10% uptime, taken from logs with longer than 4:30 in duration.


Basically, what I'm getting at is the spreadsheet is working as a Target Dummy tester, so, what's the point of it? I get idiots logging on my server to put in their 2 cents about how my spec isn't the best on the spreadsheet or Hunters who apply who basically come here, rip a spec, and have no idea how or why it's the top DPS. Giving it a more realistic value, or even the option of adjusting it to be a more realistic rate, would be a better approach.

 

Shandara

Except it wouldn't. Making adjustments for fights would also need differentation for each separate fight. How do you quantify movement during fights? Or getting a damage buff in one fight but not another?

That said, the proc-rate should even out to an 18% uptime on a patchwerk-type fight, which is what the sheet models and probably the only thing it can model (Even Simulationcraft does this).

WotLK Hunter DPS Spreadsheet

 

Whitemane

If enough data was collected on it though, I don't see anything wrong with having the option of modifying the uptime of it. The problem is that if this can not be done and we all know that the uptime of the proc is quite a bit less than what the spreadsheet tells us, it devalues the set bonus quite a bit. Then all of a sudden the spreadsheet is not going to help us make the right choices, it's just going to deceive us into making the wrong ones.

Yes, there are limitation to what the spreadsheet can model but just because a lot of works like a Patchwerk type fight doesn't mean all of it has to. At least it'd be beneficial to know the actual benefit of the set bonus, should we go for it or gear around it? An important question that, in my opinion, the spreadsheet must not fail to answer.

 

Whitemane

I think the fight length was set to 300 seconds, which is a fair enough length for most hardmodes. Would it not be possible to make it work more precisely at these shorter fight lengths?

 

Lerastes

Not only is 3 WWSes incredibly small for collecting data down to fractions of a percent, Ignis is NOT a standstill fight. You're still being knocked up every few seconds, how many Steady Shots are you losing from that? That might account for the missing 3%. Until you have many many thousands of instances of data, simply saying "the proc rate is not as advertised, look at this WWS" means absolutely nothing. No, it's probably not going to be 18% all the time, just because any fight with any movement or downtime whatsoever will adversely affect that number.

Varying fights are simply not possible to model. The only fight that can be simulated is one that makes you stand still the entire time OR one where any downtime is /exactly the same every time across all raid groups and all players/. The only type that exists in the game like that is the former. It's simply not possible to say "your DPS will be like this on Patchwerk but it'll be like this on Grobbulus". Take the spreadsheet for what it's worth; a good indication of the worth of talents and gear. Don't trust it if you don't want to but it's the only method we can use to see DPS differences for things like gear and talent specs and saying you won't follow it just because of its nature is asinine.

 

dvorjak

Would it be possible to convert the spreadsheet into a program such as Rawr for people unable to access Excel? I understand that this would be a huge undertaking, perhaps a collaboration?

 

Nebelwerfer

Following the first cast, it's on a perfectly predictable cooldown, so it's possible to not lose a single cast as a result of it simply by ensuring you'll be firing an instant or two when the cast occurs.

 

Lerastes

Yes, but how many of your instant shots would you be losing by keeping your rotation in line with Ignis' cooldown just to gain a few more Steadies?

 

Shandara

If I disabled ISS and IAotHawk (small bug there that removing talent points from IAotH doesn't stop the rotation test from using it, fixing that as well) then the rotation remains constant and the DPS as well even with short fight lengths.

That should be as one'd expect. The variance is purely because of the simulated proc rates on ISS and IAotHawk.

EDIT:
After some deliberation I've decided to add an option to de-randomize the procs of ISS, IAoTH and Lock&Load on the rotation test. Instead it will just do a proc every XX times (depending on the proc rate, etc..) which should lead to a completely stable dps value.

WotLK Hunter DPS Spreadsheet

 

Nebelwerfer

Not many at all, and certainly not as much net dps lost as not being able to cast a thing through one or two GCDs.

 

hotmetal

On version 89b, under the Bufs tab: Greater Blessing of Kings has a 4/4 improvement modifier.
Wasn't this improvement removed? Standard is 10% increase of stats IIRC.

 

hotmetal

Delete please.

 

Shandara

Isn't the haste part purely for the warrior?

WotLK Hunter DPS Spreadsheet

 

Lerastes

What are you talking about? The haste buff is on the warrior only, the debuff applied increases bleed damage. That change doesn't affect us in any way.

 

Whitemane

Where did you add this? Is it in the current version? I can't seem to find it.

 

Shandara

It will be in the next version, naturally.

WotLK Hunter DPS Spreadsheet

 

CALMSTORM

Hello...
Many thanks for the huge effort. I have a question... Once my talents and shot rotation is set... Changing priority of shots never has any effect on calculating dps (ofcourse excluding errors such as putting steady to top so it never allows any other shot to be fired) ... Is this intended / natural (due to extreme hardship/impossibility ) or am I doing something wrong ??

Before you ask.. I think I tried everything to check... Still For example putting Explosive before or after Serpent sting, or changing priority of aimed never changes the overall dps...

Thanks in advance

 

Dralmoo

It would be interesting to have an option to 'miss' some steadyshots at a defined frequency to simulate movement fights. If I set the frequency to 10%, then 10% of steady shots that would be cast are just downtime where only autoshot is cast.

Wow Web Stats

there's a thorim hardmode attempt with a 17% uptime. I don't think I had to move at all once he came down, so it is reflective of some real world situations.

 

Slona

Is that just me or is the Pawn string on the Overview tab broken?

I finally got hit capped and expected the Pawn string to contain a "HitRating=0" now. Actually that did happen when I first clicked the "CalcAttributes" button. But now I see a negative value in "Needed to cap Hit" and I still get "HitRating=1.063" in my Pawn string.

Is that me clicking the wrong buttons or what???

 

Shandara

The value of +hit isn't 0 when you are hit-capped. The hit you have on gear at that moment is still worth dps (which you would lose if you lost hit). The sheet needs to know what hit is worth to determine upgrades/downgrades even when you are hit-capped.

Naturally any hit on items that takes you above the hit-capped is discounted.

WotLK Hunter DPS Spreadsheet

 

Iru

Use the rotation test if you want to see the affect of changing shot order. By default the spreadsheet uses a percentage model so it doesn't matter what order things are in.

 

Seoman

By default, the Settings tab assumes that the last 20% of boss health will last 20% of the time of the fight (Row 27). This overvalues Kill Shot and its Glyph since many classes have abilities (like Kill Shot) which are operative during this time, together with blowing cooldowns (like Heroism), which help to increase DPS and thus shorten the duration of the end of the fight.

Happily, Shandara has included the ability to modify this number. So if the default for a 6 minute fight is 1.2 minutes, we could say, for example, that the last 20% of Boss health goes down 50% more quickly than the rest of the fight and make the value 0.9.

This being a fairly arbitrary stab in the right direction, is it possible to calculate a more realistic estimate?

 

Whitefyst

It is not realistic for general use since not everybody's raid operates the same way nor does even the same raid use the same basic strategy for every boss. complicating factors include:

- How haste effects are used/procs
- Is Bloodlust/Heroism used early or late in the encounter
- When are other on-use haste effects (such as Rapid Fire) used
- The RNG on procing haste effects (such as QS)
- The raid make up. How many of each class that has extra damage under certain conditions do you have and how much that class increases average DPS when the conditions are met
- The nature of the fight.
- Is it a stand still fight where DPS is greater and abilities proc more or often? Or is it a movement fight with lesser DPS?
- Does the nature of the fight change during various phases that makes DPS larger or greater over the various phases?
- How does the fight affect resources for performing abilities? Is the raid resource defficient over the last part of the fight?
- Individual's play style/competence/gear level
- How many people are alive the full battle
- etc.

There are just two many variables to take into account for a global realistic estimate.

The spreadsheet is a very powerful and great tool that has been worked on very hard by certain individuals who have made being an effective hunter easier, but it does not perform miracles. The spreadsheet does a great job of modeling the ideal situation. It even has some additional configuration features that allows you to tailor it more specifically for your situation, but there is only so much that can be realistically done, especially if the people working on the spreadsheet want to actually enjoy playing WoW too instead of just theorycrafting it.

The spreadsheet does a lot for us, but we are still responsible for some of the work ourselves, such as how to interpret what the spreadsheet is telling us for the ideal cases and then trying to extrapolate the results to your specific play style and raid situation to determine the decisions that are best for your situation.

If someone wants a more realistic estimate of the % of Kill Shot available time for bosses in their raids, then it is up to you to determine that value from data from your raids and use the configuration options available in the spreadsheet to see how it affects the results.

However, I wouldn't want the results from your raids in my spreadsheet since it may not be applicable to my situation.

 

Seoman

@Whitefyst I agree with all of the things you said, do not believe that the spreadsheet can perform miracles, do believe that we are responsible for much of the work ourselves, and most of all am thankful that the spreadsheet exists in all of its glory due to the hard work and dedication of a bunch of people, most of all Shandara.

However, if we all agree that the last 20% of a Boss' health will almost never - on average - last 20% of the length of a fight, then it makes sense to throw the question out, asking for some consensus on what a more reasonable assumption might be.

Put another way, if the spreadsheet best models a Patchwerk-style fight, would you think it likely that the last 20% of Patchwerk takes 20% of the time, on average?

 

Whitefyst

Sorry, my complete post was not necessarily a response to you. I just happened to be replying to your post and expressed some concerns I had from comments that several people have made recently about the spreadsheet. Your request was much more reasonable than some others I have read.

I agree that for most guilds that the last 20% of a Patchwerk type fight takes less than 20% of the time.

My first point is how much lesser of a percentage of the time is very dependent on the particular situation. If this precentage was hardcoded into the spreadsheet, I would readily agree that the value should probably be modified to some more average value but only as long as how the value was derived was plainly defined and understood so that each hunter could extrapolate the results for their particular situation.

My second point is that I do not think that doing so is necessary. The spreadsheet allows us to tailor the Kill Shot available time percentage however it suits us for our particular situation. As such, I think a very reasonable default is that the last 20% of the boss health takes 20% of the time. Any other estimate would have to have knowledge of how different classes work and make assumptions of the competence, gearing, strategy, and raid composition of the average raid while the 20% assumption is pretty clear and straightfoward. Now it is just a matter of a hunter entering a more realistic non-default value for their situation or extrapolating from the 20% default.