WotLK DPS spreadsheet - Page 110

Lerastes · 06/03/09, 7:59 PM

Originally Posted by Whitefyst

Sorry, my complete post was not necessarily a response to you. I just happened to be replying to your post and expressed some concerns I had from comments that several people have made recently about the spreadsheet. Your request was much more reasonable than some others I have read.

I agree that for most guilds that the last 20% of a Patchwerk type fight takes less than 20% of the time.

My first point is how much lesser of a percentage of the time is very dependent on the particular situation. If this precentage was hardcoded into the spreadsheet, I would readily agree that the value should probably be modified to some more average value but only as long as how the value was derived was plainly defined and understood so that each hunter could extrapolate the results for their particular situation.

My second point is that I do not think that doing so is necessary. The spreadsheet allows us to tailor the Kill Shot available time percentage however it suits us for our particular situation. As such, I think a very reasonable default is that the last 20% of the boss health takes 20% of the time. Any other estimate would have to have knowledge of how different classes work and make assumptions of the competence, gearing, strategy, and raid composition of the average raid while the 20% assumption is pretty clear and straightfoward. Now it is just a matter of a hunter entering a more realistic non-default value for their situation or extrapolating from the 20% default.

In cases when comparing something like Kill Shot, whose value can vary greatly depending on the fight and when you Bloodlust or something, to Chimera Shot, whose value is largely the same through the entire fight, I'd probably go with the more constant one even if it's a small DPS loss. If it's rather large, in the 100+ range, I'd have to do some experimenting. This is just the nature of the spreadsheet. Just like you can't model a fight like Razorscale, you can't model individual raid groups and player performance; it's up to you to figure out what's best for your raid group and play style when confronted with something like Glyph of Kill Shot vs Chiimera Shot because the spreadsheet simply can not do it for you.

Kharthus · 06/04/09, 2:20 AM

delete

Bikiniwax · 06/04/09, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Shandara

@Bikiniwax:
I've had reports of this bug but I have been unable to reproduce it as yet Can you see what steps you did to make it bug out? Merely changing the latency to 250 ms and re-running the test works normally for me.

Shandara,

I am not sure why I still get the error. If I enter latencies of 234, 235, 250, 264, 290 I get the error. These are just some of the latencies that I have tested. For example, 230-233 all work as does 265.

Shandara · 06/04/09, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by Bikiniwax

Shandara,

I am not sure why I still get the error. If I enter latencies of 234, 235, 250, 264, 290 I get the error. These are just some of the latencies that I have tested. For example, 230-233 all work as does 265.

Any particular rotation? I.e. did you change the default?

Bikiniwax · 06/04/09, 1:12 PM

I never changed the SV default shot rotation.

1. I entered in my name and server info.
2. I renamed the profiles and talent spec on the Overview tab.
3. I loaded my gear via Armoury
4. I loaded my 15/56 spec via Armoury
5. I did touch anything on the Rotation tab (latency still set to 200) and went to the Shot Rotation tab and ran that. It worked fine.
6. I went to the Overview tab and clicked the Calculate button
7. I went to the gear planner tab and clicked the Ranged Weapon button and then the Gear Sort button
8. I went back to the Rotation tab and changed the latency to 250 ms (which is about where I raid at)
9. Then I went to the Shot Rotation tab and ran that and I keep getting the error. The last shot is ALWAYS Steady Shot at 7 sec, then the error pop-up is displayed.

After that, changing the latency back to 200 will not fix the problem. I have to exit the spreadsheet and re-open it to get it to work again at 200 ms.

This was happening for both SV 5/56 and MM 7/57/7 specs, always showing Steady Shot at 7 sec then getting the error.

Shandara · 06/04/09, 1:59 PM

Originally Posted by Bikiniwax

I never changed the SV default shot rotation.

1. I entered in my name and server info.
2. I renamed the profiles and talent spec on the Overview tab.
3. I loaded my gear via Armoury
4. I loaded my 15/56 spec via Armoury
5. I did touch anything on the Rotation tab (latency still set to 200) and went to the Shot Rotation tab and ran that. It worked fine.
6. I went to the Overview tab and clicked the Calculate button
7. I went to the gear planner tab and clicked the Ranged Weapon button and then the Gear Sort button
8. I went back to the Rotation tab and changed the latency to 250 ms (which is about where I raid at)
9. Then I went to the Shot Rotation tab and ran that and I keep getting the error. The last shot is ALWAYS Steady Shot at 7 sec, then the error pop-up is displayed.

After that, changing the latency back to 200 will not fix the problem. I have to exit the spreadsheet and re-open it to get it to work again at 200 ms.

This was happening for both SV 5/56 and MM 7/57/7 specs, always showing Steady Shot at 7 sec then getting the error.

Cheers. I was able to reproduce it now and fix it. Had to do with specific amounts of haste triggering some logic which was bugged (but rarely reached).

alienangel · 06/04/09, 2:34 PM

Question, likely a dumb one, about the Rotation test test: do other people actually see it producing different DPS from the DPS calculation displayed by the frequency model?

I have to be missing some setting somewhere, but every time I run the rotation test, I get exactly the same DPS from it as is see on the Gear page, down to the decimal values. Changing shot priorities like swapping arcane/aimed as MM makes no difference. Each run I see things like ISS procs and LnL procs occuring at different times, but the resulting DPS works out the same somehow. Am I supposed to be looking somewhere other than near the top of the tab for the DPS produced from that run of the test?

I do have macros enabled.

alienangel · 06/04/09, 2:43 PM

Originally Posted by Shandara

After some deliberation I've decided to add an option to de-randomize the procs of ISS, IAoTH and Lock&Load on the rotation test. Instead it will just do a proc every XX times (depending on the proc rate, etc..) which should lead to a completely stable dps value.

Could this not lead to some unrealistic coincidence issues? Like ISS always being applied to an arcane shot, or ISS always being applied to a chimera shot?

edit: or even LnL always proccing while Black Arrow is/isn't on the target

Esoth · 06/04/09, 4:57 PM

Originally Posted by alienangel

Question, likely a dumb one, about the Rotation test test: do other people actually see it producing different DPS from the DPS calculation displayed by the frequency model?

I have to be missing some setting somewhere, but every time I run the rotation test, I get exactly the same DPS from it as is see on the Gear page, down to the decimal values.

That number doesn't appear to be the sum of your special shots divided by time (plus auto and pet DPS); it looks like it will always show the same number here as elsewhere. Instead what you have to do is go into Settings row 13 and set this to yes. This will change the frequencies used in the table in Shot Rotation!E29:N40 to be based on what you see in the Rotation Test, and this will in turn change your total DPS.

Azlannagh · 06/04/09, 5:53 PM

EDIT: I failed to see the obvious.
Delete please.

Iru · 06/04/09, 6:06 PM

Originally Posted by alienangel

Question, likely a dumb one, about the Rotation test test: do other people actually see it producing different DPS from the DPS calculation displayed by the frequency model?

Esoth has pointed out why you're not seeing a difference but yes, with the test enabled, I always see a difference. The rotation test approach is always less DPS.

Shandara · 06/04/09, 6:58 PM

Originally Posted by alienangel

Could this not lead to some unrealistic coincidence issues? Like ISS always being applied to an arcane shot, or ISS always being applied to a chimera shot?

edit: or even LnL always proccing while Black Arrow is/isn't on the target

It will only count proc possibilities when it is actually possible of course. But yes, with that option enabled the rotation will be exactly the same every time (provided all other variables stay the same between tests). Of course if you change the rotation the proc locations will shift.

Best example is Black Arrow. The sheet will have L&L proc after (with 6% proc chance per tick) 16,67 ticks, regardless of whether the Black Arrow applications are consecutive (i.e. up for 15 secs out of every 30 secs) or with longer periods between applications.

The problem with the sheet is multi-fold.

a) The frequency-based calculations are deterministic, but do not account for shot cooldowns clashing and thus delaying shots. It is however best suited for determining stat values for the Gear Planner. It is probably the least accurate in predicting our dps though.
b) The simulation with random procs has the benefit of matching an actual fight and the rotation better, but is non-deterministic. The output will fluctuate based on the amount of procs and when they occur. So it is least suited to calculate the value of individual stats for the Gear Planner.
c) The new option added will give us a third possibility: simulated shot rotation with fixed procs like described above. It has the benefit that it accounts for shots colliding on cooldowns and produces the same output for equal input every time. Which makes it possible to use it for the Gear Planner values.

Each method has its drawbacks and I'm not sure which should be the 'standard'. However method a) is getting outdated since it produces values of DPS that are far higher than would be actually possible (since with complex MM and SV rotations involving many shots there will be a great many collisions in the rotation).

alienangel · 06/04/09, 7:05 PM

If I'm reading your use of the word "option" correctly, would the new deterministic mode of the shot rotation tab be toggled on and off via a setting somewhere? That sounds quite nice, since you could use that for quick checks and let the gearplanner/calcattributes work off it, but once you've settled on something you want to investigate carefully, you could turn the option off, use the existing fields on the tap to run the shot rotation test 50 times, and take the average of them as input to calcattributes.

This is of course getting to the point where we should really be using simcraft, but since you've already worked at putting in the shotrotations tab and options for iterating the test, might as well keep the option of having them be random as well.

edit: and thanks Esoth, that's probably exactly what I'm missing, will try it when I get home

Shandara · 06/05/09, 6:52 AM

Update:

- Troll base health adjusted
- Fixed Silencing Shot on rotation tab not doing damage
- Greater Blessing of Kings now has only 1 rank and no modifiers
- Calculate Attributes now also works with the rotation test tab.
- Added Hand Adjust line to target debuffs
- Rotation test now uses the Settings tab value for boss fight length and % at which Kill Shot will be used.
- Disabling IAotH as a talent now also disables it in the Rotation Test
- There is now an option on the Settings tab which disables randomisation of proc chances in the rotation test. Instead they will go off at fixed intervals, making the rotation test static in it's results. This includes Improved Steady Shot, Lock And Load and Improved Aspect of the Hawk procs.

Slona · 06/05/09, 7:53 AM

Originally Posted by Shandara

The value of +hit isn't 0 when you are hit-capped. The hit you have on gear at that moment is still worth dps (which you would lose if you lost hit). The sheet needs to know what hit is worth to determine upgrades/downgrades even when you are hit-capped.

Naturally any hit on items that takes you above the hit-capped is discounted.

thanks for the clarification! /bow

BUT this "any hit on items that takes you above the hit-capped is discounted" logic does not really transfer over to PAWN - right? So I can manually zero the HitRating when I copy&paste the Pawn string?

After all I am capped now and don't want Pawn to value +hit anymore. Or do I miss something?

Strange thing is, I saw this spreadsheet (sometimes and in an earlier version) calculate the pawn string with HR=0 a few times. But I can't repro anymore :-(

Joheltro · 06/05/09, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by Slona

t
After all I am capped now and don't want Pawn to value +hit anymore. Or do I miss something?

Well the item you are replacing might tick you under the hitcap, so its nice to have it there anyway. The way I make it is that I import the pawn numbers, then copies that pawn setting to a second setting where i have hit=0. That way I get up 2 dps numbers on items to see dps value while capped, and not.

Conditioned · 06/05/09, 1:56 PM

Looks like the shotrotation of 'Best sv dps' is fubared. It takes Multishot and then Aimed Shot, they share the cd. I wouldnt have mentioned it but the dps changes when I remove ms.

Shandara · 06/05/09, 2:24 PM

Originally Posted by Conditioned

Looks like the shotrotation of 'Best sv dps' is fubared. It takes Multishot and then Aimed Shot, they share the cd. I wouldnt have mentioned it but the dps changes when I remove ms.

Hmm, I forgot to remove multi-shot from that after testing it. It doesn't add dps for frequency based calculations but the rotation test isn't accounting for the shared cooldown. Thanks, I'll fix it.

Drakbak · 06/05/09, 2:51 PM

Couple things I noticed while putting together an ArP build.

1) Hearty Rhino (+40 ArP, +40 Stam Food) appears to not be implemented properly. When i select it, it shows 280 ArP in the column (which is obviously incorrect), yet it has zero effect on my DPS calc.

2) Elixir of Armor Piercing (+45 ArP Battle Elixir) seems to be missing from the list of battle elixirs.

I've account for these buffs through the manual adjustments, but would be nice to see them corrected on the worksheet. As always, thanks for all the hard work you put into this project!

Shandara · 06/05/09, 2:58 PM

Originally Posted by Drakbak

Couple things I noticed while putting together an ArP build.

1) Hearty Rhino (+40 ArP, +40 Stam Food) appears to not be implemented properly. When i select it, it shows 280 ArP in the column (which is obviously incorrect), yet it has zero effect on my DPS calc.

2) Elixir of Armor Piercing (+45 ArP Battle Elixir) seems to be missing from the list of battle elixirs.

I've account for these buffs through the manual adjustments, but would be nice to see them corrected on the worksheet. As always, thanks for all the hard work you put into this project!

Hearty Rhino appears to use the pre-rating value, strange I forgot to adjust it. Thanks for the report.

Conditioned · 06/05/09, 3:02 PM

Originally Posted by Shandara

Hmm, I forgot to remove multi-shot from that after testing it. It doesn't add dps for frequency based calculations but the rotation test isn't accounting for the shared cooldown. Thanks, I'll fix it.

Np, glad to help.

Cattiebrie · 06/05/09, 3:05 PM

Been playing around with the Shot Rotation tab more, as it is showing dps numbers more in-line with what I see in reality. One question though: testing my MM rotation, there is a "(J 0)" notation to the side. What is that?

Edit: It only appears by Chimera Shot, and it doesn't appear by every instance of Chimera Shot.

Shandara · 06/05/09, 3:11 PM

Originally Posted by Cattiebrie

Been playing around with the Shot Rotation tab more, as it is showing dps numbers more in-line with what I see in reality. One question though: testing my MM rotation, there is a "(J 0)" notation to the side. What is that?

Edit: It only appears by Chimera Shot, and it doesn't appear by every instance of Chimera Shot.

It means the rotation waited for that amount of seconds for the CD on Chimera Shot (instead of casting another shot first and thus delaying CS). I can't remember why I used J for that, I'll rename it to something more obvious.

alienangel · 06/05/09, 3:19 PM

Does it display such notation for all cooldown collisions?

On that note, it would be rather neat if the rotation test would highlight in some way (either by colour or by some notation like the above) when two shots collided and it delayed one. Would that be difficult to add?

Shandara · 06/05/09, 3:26 PM

Originally Posted by alienangel

Does it display such notation for all cooldown collisions?

On that note, it would be rather neat if the rotation test would highlight in some way (either by colour or by some notation like the above) when two shots collided and it delayed one. Would that be difficult to add?

It only does it for Chimera Shot and Explosive Shot at the moment ,but it would be possible to add it for all shots easily enough. Plus it could do a quick and dirty calculation to see whether waiting is actually worth it damage wise.