Velladen

Mjolnir's Runestone is improperly calculating DPS on the spreadsheet for two reasons. Currently it is calculating the benefit from the proc by simply adding the average amount of ArP you would gain from the proc which is 129 ArP.

The first problem with this is that dps per point of ArP goes up the more ArP you get. As such, having 655 ArP 20% of the time is far better than having 129 ArP 100% of the time. I did a calculation of what the average dps would be if you had the proc up 20% of the time and then used the spreadsheet's to calculate Mjolnir's runestone and the difference was about 45 dps.

The second problem with simply adding the average ArP gained from the proc is that it doesn't take into account the cap on ArP. Currently on the spreadsheet you get full use of mjolnir's even if you go well over the cap. This causes the spreadsheet to always count ArP better than Agi even though Agi becomes the better stat at 567 ArP.

The way I was calculating dps for the Mjolnir's proc was to make the trinket slot empty then hand adjust in 102 crit rating. I would take that dps and multiply it by .8023 I would then hand adjust 655 ArP in and multiply the dps by .1977 then add the two numbers together. I believe this to be a much more accurate way to find the proper bonus from the proc because it handles both of the problems.


--Edit--

Ok i read some of the previous posts that showed why the first problem would be hard to fix, but I'm curious if it would be hard to fix the second problem. I would think that you could change the amount of ArP gained from the proc based off of the current ArP and then find the average ArP to add. I haven't done much with excel but I thought you could do simple conditionals such as this with it. I also read recently that the proc from mjolnir's is actually 665, but i'll assume that it has been brought to your attention already.

if (BaseArP < 567)
Proc = 665
else if (BaseArP > 1232)
Proc = 0
else
Proc = (1232 - BaseArP)

AverageArP = Proc*.1977


An example of what the above statements would do would be

BaseArP = 800
Proc = 1232 - 800 = 432
AverageArP = 85.41

This would give only 85 ArP instead of the full 129 when it puts them over the cap.

--Edit--

If for some reason you can't use conditionals I thought of a formula that would give you the same result. It accounts for values below 567, above 1232, and in between.

Proc = ((((567-BaseArP)-abs(567-BaseArP))/2 + 665) + abs(((567-BaseArP)-abs(567-BaseArP))/2 + 665))/2
AverageArP = Proc*0.1977

Examples

BaseArP = 800
Proc = ((((567-800)-abs(567-800))/2 + 665) + abs(((567-800)-abs(567-800))/2 + 665))/2 = 432
AverageArP = 432*0.1977 = 85.41

BaseArP = 500
Proc = ((((567-500)-abs(567-500))/2 + 665) + abs(((567-500)-abs(567-500))/2 + 665))/2 = 665
AverageArP = 432*0.1977 = 131.47

BaseArP = 1300
Proc = ((((567-1300)-abs(567-1300))/2 + 665) + abs(((567-1300)-abs(567-1300))/2 + 665))/2 = 0
AverageArP = 0*0.1977 = 0

 

Midnight

During my shot formula research, for which I used the spreadsheet calculations tab as main resource, I found a slight inconsistency with the Serpent Sting formula.
The 2pcT8 bonus doesn´t seem to be calculated multiplicative but additive after all the other damage bonuses have been multiplied.

SpS DMG = (1210 + rangedAP * 0.2) * (targetDebuffs * improvedStings + T8Bonus)

Example: Right now I´m standing in front of a target dummy if I cast a serpent sting it´s doing 596-597 dmg per tick. I´ve got 4601 RAP, 3/3 Improved Stings and 4/5 T8 and no spell damage debuffs on target.

SpS DMG = (1210 + 4601 * 0.2) * (1 * 1.3 + 0.1) = 2130.2 * 1.4 =
per Tick DMG = 2982.28 / 5 = 596.456

If I calculate it multiplicative it´d be:

SpS DMG = (1210 + 4601 * 0.2) * (1 * 1.3 * 1.1) = 2130.2 * 1.43 = 3046.186
per Tick DMG = 3046.186 / 5 = 609.2372

(CS-Serpent is calculated multiplicative though)

Feel free to verify my observations with diffrent combinations of talents/debuffs.

FaceShooter - a hunter shot recommendation AddOn
The optimism of action is better than the pessimism of thought.
- Greenpeace UK

 

agura

A couple of questions:

Does the spreadsheet take into account mana usage from Kill Command in the rotation? The mana usage calculations only seem to sum the mana usage from shots, from what I can deduce.

Could there be a setting made to remove KC dps from the pet? KC seems to be very mana inefficient, and for long fights it would be seem better to not use KC at all if you expect to ever use Viper.

 

Kioller

I have a question as to how the gear planner handles enchants. I know you can select MH and OH enchants that WOULD be on a peice of gear. but im having a hard time figuring out my gloves upgrade, because i do not think it is considering an enchant. as in - it consideres the Agil enchant on my current gloves into the total value, but does it auto consider the same enchant on all other gloves, or does it not consider an enchant at all? perhaps does it consider a certain enchant on gloves/pants or what not. since i dont know the value of the enchant, its hard to add or subtract that amount.
I would think it to be a nice option to figure enchants just like the MH, OH options, or perhaps simply include the same enchant. thank you for any information, or your welcome if you add the enchants option for all gear.
I hope i made myself clear, thank you.

 

Ritalian

Quick question form a regular user of this spreadsheet. Is anyone else having trouble with the Crit%?

I've only just noticed that my Crit% on the spreadsheet is LOWER than my Crit% on my armory screen. Does the armory take in to account buffs? I didn't think it did. Normally I would expect to see a HIGHER number on the spreadsheet to allow for our raid buffs etc

I believe it should show as 29.1%, instead I see 28.67%

From Wotlk calculations tab:
Base -1.53%
Agility 1481.3
Agility Ratio 83.33
Agility Crit 17.78%
Tooltip Agility Rate 16.25%
Gear Crit Rating 561
Gear on-proc 0.00
Crit Ratio 45.91
Gear Crit Adjustment 12.22%
Lethal Shots 5.00%
Killer Instincts 0.00%
Master Marksman 0.00%
Master Tactician 0.00%
Target Debuffs 0.00%

Crit Depression -4.80%
In-game Tooltip 33.25%
Total 28.67%

 

Midnight

Well according to your armory link that shows 29.1% crit you´ve got only 1118 agi not 1481 like the spreadsheet assumes. You´ll have to check the agi calculations to find the source of the discrepancy.

FaceShooter - a hunter shot recommendation AddOn
The optimism of action is better than the pessimism of thought.
- Greenpeace UK

 

Ritalian

Thanks for spotting that Midnight...although that would suggest the Spreadsheet should show a HIGHER number. Not sure where I mislaid 363 agility!

I've used the "Read from Armory option throughout the spreadsheet then double checked it to avoid exactly this problem. I'll go back to it and check again.

Thanks again.

EDIT: The extra agility is from raid buffs...if I remove these then my crit% should drop even lower. I will do this though to get a true reflection of the difference.

Problem found:

Base -1.53%
Agility 1118
Agility Ratio 83.33
Agility Crit 13.42%
Tooltip Agility Rate 11.89%
Gear Crit Rating 561
Gear on-proc 0.00
Crit Ratio 45.91
Gear Crit Adjustment 12.22%
Lethal Shots 5.00%
Killer Instincts 0.00%
Master Marksman 0.00%
Master Tactician 0.00%
Target Debuffs 0.00%

Crit Depression -4.80%
In-game Tooltip 29.11%
Total 24.31%

 

Midnight

It does suggest a higher number. Check the "In-Game tooltip" Line. The tooltip value is your crit chance against lvl 80 targets, when fighting against higher level mobs there´s a crit depression that´s also listed in the spreadsheet.

FaceShooter - a hunter shot recommendation AddOn
The optimism of action is better than the pessimism of thought.
- Greenpeace UK

 

• VRoscioli

Looks right to me. The spreadsheet shows you at 29.11% crit against a level 80 target. Due to crit depression aginst higher level targets, this number drops 4.8% to 24.31% against a raid boss.

 

• VRoscioli

So far as I can tell from looking at the spreadsheet, the gear planner does not take into account enchants on current gear or potential upgrades, with the exception of melee weapons. That is, it will not count any enchant you have on your gloves towards its DPS value, nor will it assume any enchantment on a potential upgrade.

 

• VRoscioli

Kill Command mana does not appear to be calculated into our mana expenditure. According to the spreadsheet, in my current gear, I get 822.78 damage from popping KC. It costs about 168 mana, which makes it about 4.9 DPM, which is indeed awful compared to our other options.

I agree that (1) KC mana should be included in our expended mana and (2) we should have the option to turn it off, as not using it could provide a DPS increase if AotV must be used.

 

• VRoscioli

AvgArPProc = 0.1977 * max(0,min(665,1232-BaseArP))

 

Ritalian

Thanks guys....I didn't know about the crit depression vs higher level targets.

 

TrevvyTrev

I would go a step further and say that (1) KC should be modeled in the rotation like shots, Rapid Fire, etc., and (2) that model should include the option to use KC with BW when BM specced. Using it every 60 seconds may not be as much damage as using it every 71 seconds with BW. The Catlike Reflexes changes on the PTR may exacerbate this issue, as BM hunters will want to see the dps implications of using KC with every BW and also squeezing another one in between.

 

Velladen

Didn't know about those max/min functions, that would make it a lot simpler.

 

Rivkah

I added in the mana cost for KC in my web version of the spreadsheet (should be ready for public beta in a few days). I ran a dps check with it on and off in my standard gear and raid buffs, with judgement of wisdom turned off (since with it on I don't run out of mana). I found that there was about a 1dps gain from having KC turned off in that particular situation. Obviously it's going to vary based on many factors, but for survival at least it doesn't seem to play a very significant dps role one way or the other.

 

Domo

I notice that for marksman shot priority "Arcane Shot" is actually decreasing 100 or so DPS on the latest spreadsheet. Can someone please enlighten me, if arcane shot is still neccessary or I can simply ignore it according to the latest spreadsheet's shot rotation test?

 

Rezdan

I've explained how Arcane Shot may end up being a DPS decrease for certain MM specs with ArP focused gear in the Marksmen thread.

 

Shandara

Update:
Previous version may be downloaded from the link on the first page of this thread.

Some caveats:
Tier9 bonuses are just assumptions so far since we can not test it yet. The Gear Planner now converts any excess +hit on items to either agility, AP or crit (selected on Settings tab) to a maximum of what you have gemmed (not counting gems in the item that is being replaced).

This is a bit beta-quality since I made a lot of changes to the gear planner to facilitate this. Let me know if it works as I imagined.

EDIT:
I meant tier9 yes, thanks.

WotLK Hunter DPS Spreadsheet

 

KraxisSingular

-issue fixed

 

• VRoscioli

/cheer!

I still question why we should necessarily limit this to the amount that we have gemmed, as we can still replace things like hit enchants, Focused Aimed, etc to get DPS gain from excess hit. But this is definitely a step in the right direction.

 

Iru

While it would be nice to have, extending as you suggest is likely to be major surgery from a SS perspective. Gems are already dealt with differently to support the use of preferred gemming of new gear in the gear planner. Extending that to enchants, or worse talents, would be a massive undertaking.

 

Kathucka

About hit rating translation.....

While a full extension of the hit rating translation might be pretty complex, considering the glove enchant might be worthwhile. It's a straight trade-off of either 44 AP, 20 AGI, or 20 HR. So, if you go over the hit cap by too much and the hit rating glove enchant is present, the planner could translate to 20 AGI or 44AP.

After that, it gets a lot more complex, with with things like the icewalker boot enchant and the precision weapon enchants, which combine multiple stats. It's do-able, but it gets ugly fast.

For now, though, I'm seeing much more accurate comparisons. This is a great improvement. Thank you.

Re-iterating my earlier example, the gear planner now shows the [Surge Needle Ring] as a 21.5 DPS upgrade over the [Ring of Invincibility]. Manually swapping them and re-gemming shows an 18.0 DPS upgrade. So, it's off by only 3, instead of 22, and correctly showing an upgrade as an upgrade. Much better.

On the other hand, since I'm so far over the hit cap with that ring, I can (manually) swap out my Icewalker for Superior agility, and get a total DPS increase of 31, leaving it off by 9.5. So, that's how much you stand to gain by getting into the messy business of swapping enchants.

 

• VRoscioli

I agree that the situation would get quite complicated if we were to start trying to decide exactly how much bang we can get for the leftover hit rating. This is especially true if we start trying to consider the ramifications of being able to change a point in Focused Aim out for something else.

Because of this, I can still see the usefulness of counting all excess hit as Agility (or whatever stat), and assuming that we can find something to replace to increase our DPS by about that value. (e.g. maybe I don't actually have any +hit gems, but a piece with +30 hit rating allows me to move a point in Focused Aim to something else, increasing DPS by about as much as +30 agi would -- I'm not saying that it is possible to find such DPS-gaining swaps in every case, but I'd imagine that humans are a bit more wily than the spreadsheet, and will find some way to benefit from the "excess" hit, so why not just assume that we'll get some use out of all of it?)

 

Rivkah

It looks like this latest PTR version added in support for the pet expertise inheriting from hit. I did some tests and it seemed to be working although I'm not sure of the scaling, but for now probably an estimated 3.25 expertise per 1% hit is probably a reasonable figure to work with if you want to include it in the spreadsheet.

My tests weren't very long but they indicated it's possible that they may have also fixed the pet hit rounding down issue that currently exists- I'll try to find some time to run tests for a longer period to see if it's really changed.