WotLK DPS spreadsheet - Page 12

Shandara · 10/07/08, 3:57 PM

Originally Posted by Ravenfire

Shandara,

There appears to be an error in the calculation of Scorpid Poison on the pet calculation tab. It looks like the dps of the ability is calculated as (damage modifier / duration) leaving out the actual damage of the ability and giving a 5 stack of Scorpid poison a dps of less then 1.

True, it's been messed up by various changes over time. I'll have it fixed for next version.

On another note, what's the scaling on it now? 42.875% like the other 'magical' abilities?

Update:

- You can now select the pet's GCD on the Pet tab. Use either 1.25s (tested) or 1.5 (assumed) or your own value
- Rapid Recuperation is now 2 ranks
- Various fixed to items/enchants, added a few missing ones
- Explosive Shot affected by Mortal Shots again
- Hunter's Mark rank 5 is now level 76 (instead of 68)
- Fixed Delicate Cardinal Ruby

zoujin · 10/08/08, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by Shandara

That sort of logic doesn't often count with Blizzard though. It's probably intentional and intended to curb BM dps/PvP.

Except that 52/14/5 does similar dps, or 1-2 points moved to invigoration it has better longevity.

I have a few suggestions regarding mm and sv setups. The BM's gear seems to be better for the other two specs, and these marksman and survival builds give me better dps. An aspect of the hawk or tsa glyph is more appropiate than than bestial wrath, too.

I realize it's something everyone should do for themselves, but I think mm and sv looks a bit nicer with 5-600 extra dps. (Sv went from 5.1k to 5.7k and mm from 5.5k to 6.1k.) Plus the spreadsheet is a tool for finding the best dps specs, and those above are better than the current ones.

Using a raptor (because rake is broken) also reduces the gap a little more, but somehow I doubt they are finished with pet damage.

One last thing. Now that with viper we have practically infinte mana pool (unless they nerf it back to uselessness), could it be useful to calculate weighted dps? (dps in viper*time in viper to full mana + dps in hawk*time in hawk till oom)/(hawk + viper time) On paper it doesn't change things that much, just shows how good viper is.

Shandara · 10/08/08, 12:23 PM

I haven't really been updating the pre-set specs/gear sets, so it's likely out of whack.

The Viper weighted DPS thing has been on my mind for a while. I'll get around to it one of these days.

EDIT:
Made a quick addition of the Aspect of the Viper thing, it's on the Shot Rotation tab. Same button as the 'Calculate Averages'.

I'll probably integrate both the Kill Shot logic and the Aspect of the Viper into one soonish, so you can see what your DPS is in a boss fight of XX minutes long.

Indora · 10/09/08, 9:50 AM

I dislike the 'Calculate Average' button.
It's result doesn't effect the calculations.

I think it would be a better idea to add 3 options to the aspect selection:
-always the same
-viper: mana regen
-viper: time to oom

The first option will set the uptime of the selected aspect to 100%.
The other two calculate the needed uptime of the viper aspect to regenerate all the mana lost / regenerate enough mana to be oom at the end of the fight (after 10 minutes in the default settings) and fills the remaining time with Hawk.

Examples:
-Viper: mana regen:

Time to oom: 500 seconds
Time to full: 15 seconds
Viper uptime: 15 / (15 + 500) = 2,9%
Hawk uptime: 1 - 0.029 = 97,1%

-Viper: time to oom:

Fight length: 10 minutes
Mana: 12.000
Mana used per second: 160
Mana regen per second: 100
Mana used in 10 minutes: 36.000
Viper mana regen per Second: 1.000
Needed Seconds of Viper: (36.000 - 12.000) / 1.000 = 24
Viper Uptime: 24 / (10*60) = 4%
Hawk Uptime: 1-0.04 = 96%

Now include the uptime of each aspect to it's effect (Hawk ap = previous ap * uptime) and your calculations are again a bit more precise.

In addition, it would be nice to compare mana regen through aspect of the viper to mana regen through Chimera + Vipern Sting. I thought of something like:

Aspect of the Viper Mps per Dps =
(Mps regen through Viper) / (Dps with Hawk - Dps with Viper)

Viper Sting Mps per Dps =
(Mana regen through Chimera_Viper / Chimera frequency) / (Serpent Dps + (Chimera dmg with serpent - Chimera dmg with viper) / Chimera frequency)

As it's hard to define the Dps loss of using the Viper aspect / sting without VBA, I would recommend using it.
This isn't a problem as this calculation is just for comparison's sake and doesn't effect the calculations (unlike the aspect's uptime)

edit:
Now that I think of it, you may add the option to use Viper Sting for mana regen, too, as it's most likely better than using Aspect of the Viper (it wouldn't make any sense at all if it doesn't). With the calculated uptime of Aspect of the Viper / Viper Sting, Talents like efficiency can be included to actual dps calculations as decreasing the manacost increases the Aspect of the Hawk / Serpent Sting uptime and thus dps.

zoujin · 10/09/08, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Shandara

EDIT:
Made a quick addition of the Aspect of the Viper thing, it's on the Shot Rotation tab. Same button as the 'Calculate Averages'.

Wow, that was fast, thank you!

(The button tries to modify protected cells, I assume it's work in progress. But I found out I can play with macros too.)

Shandara · 10/09/08, 5:53 PM

Originally Posted by Indora

I dislike the 'Calculate Average' button.
It's result doesn't effect the calculations.

I think it would be a better idea to add 3 options to the aspect selection:
-always the same
-viper: mana regen
-viper: time to oom

The first option will set the uptime of the selected aspect to 100%.
The other two calculate the needed uptime of the viper aspect to regenerate all the mana lost / regenerate enough mana to be oom at the end of the fight (after 10 minutes in the default settings) and fills the remaining time with Hawk.
<snip>

Now include the uptime of each aspect to it's effect (Hawk ap = previous ap * uptime) and your calculations are again a bit more precise.
<snip>

As it's hard to define the Dps loss of using the Viper aspect / sting without VBA, I would recommend using it.
This isn't a problem as this calculation is just for comparison's sake and doesn't effect the calculations (unlike the aspect's uptime)

edit:
Now that I think of it, you may add the option to use Viper Sting for mana regen, too, as it's most likely better than using Aspect of the Viper (it wouldn't make any sense at all if it doesn't). With the calculated uptime of Aspect of the Viper / Viper Sting, Talents like efficiency can be included to actual dps calculations as decreasing the manacost increases the Aspect of the Hawk / Serpent Sting uptime and thus dps.

I'm going to re-do it like you suggested. This was just a quick hack to see if I could come up with something. I had something like you suggested in mind, but getting the right values for both regen and expenditure in both Hawk/Viper was a bit tricky.

Update:

- Reworked the AotV calculations to not require macros. 
- Hunter vs Wild now correctly adds AP to the pet
- Rapid Fire and Beast Within cooldowns modified to reflect the discussion in http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t28573-hunter_wotlk_talents_abilities_discussion/
- With the aspect you can select the behavior of Viper. "Always On" means never switch to Viper but stay in the selected Aspect. "Viper to OOM" means to use Viper as a means to last the duration of the boss fight (length selectable below). "Viper - Regen" means to use Viper to regen to full every time before continuining (i.e. indeterminate fight lengths)
- Added Viper Sting as a selectable shot. Exported profiles will not load correctly because of the added spells.

I've removed the Kill Shot logic for the moment, since it wasn't really easy to integrate into the AotV logic.

samfisher · 10/10/08, 7:43 AM

Hmm, I'm not sure how the new pull down menu in the shot rotation works. Viper to OOM and Viper - Regen? In the Aspect section it's Hawk, and only the Usage part is confusing me a little.

This is how I understand it:

Viper to OOM - Hawk and then Viper when you're OOM.

Viper - Regen, Viper when low, but not necessarily out of mana yet?

Both sound similiar so I don't really know =)

Shandara · 10/10/08, 8:24 AM

Originally Posted by samfisher

Hmm, I'm not sure how the new pull down menu in the shot rotation works. Viper to OOM and Viper - Regen? In the Aspect section it's Hawk, and only the Usage part is confusing me a little.

This is how I understand it:

Viper to OOM - Hawk and then Viper when you're OOM.

Viper - Regen, Viper when low, but not necessarily out of mana yet?

Both sound similiar so I don't really know =)

I'll quote from the change log:
"With the aspect you can select the behavior of Viper. "Always On" means never switch to Viper but stay in the selected Aspect. "Viper to OOM" means to use Viper as a means to last the duration of the boss fight (length selectable below). "Viper - Regen" means to use Viper to regen to full every time before continuining (i.e. indeterminate fight lengths)"

I know the names are clunky, but that's what Indorra was talking about above. Feel free to suggest a better naming scheme.

Viper - OOM = use Viper just enough so you're OOM at the end of the fight
Viper - regen = use Viper to regen mana to full every time you have to switch

Miya Mirage · 10/10/08, 12:37 PM

In the Pet Calculations Tab hunter to pet hit transfer is still marked as (NYI) and also calculated as such. I think its safe to assume it'll stay the way it is in beta right now and you can allow that to work

Rokh · 10/10/08, 12:48 PM

Can you check over the Blood Fury numbers? When I put it in the shot rotation tab my DPS goes down.. Don't tell me it's not worth the GCD to activate it, I'll cry.

Namarus · 10/10/08, 1:03 PM

I've been trying to get lock and load modeled in the shot rotations, along with setting serpent sting to go off everytime it is used up.

Is there something that I am missing?

Shandara · 10/10/08, 1:16 PM

@Miya:
It's just the label that still says NYI I think, it is actually using the +hit.

@Rokh:
Blood Fury is automatically calculated already, so adding it to the shot rotation takes up a GCD and lowers DPS. I haven't changed it yet like I did Rapid Fire/Bestial Wrath.

@Namarus:
I'm not sure what you mean there. Lock & Load is already calculated automatically and there's no way I can model specific shots going off in response to procs. This spreadsheet averages such things and only a simulation could model specific shot rotations who adapt to procs.

I think you mean you want to reapply Serpent Sting every time Lock & Load has proc'ed and you have used up the charges? I.e. before Serpent Sting would fall off normally.

Miya Mirage · 10/10/08, 1:30 PM

Originally Posted by Shandara

@Miya:
It's just the label that still says NYI I think, it is actually using the +hit.

Yeah got a bit confused and having fever i just ignored the -4% adjustment for bosses and didn't think any further. Sorry about that.

One other thing, is there an option anywhere to tell the spreadsheet, that there's a Serpent Sting from another Hunter so it applies the Bonus Damage from the Steady Shot Glyph without having to put the Sting into our rotation? I couldn't find anything like that.

Shandara · 10/10/08, 1:43 PM

Originally Posted by Miya Mirage

One other thing, is there an option anywhere to tell the spreadsheet, that there's a Serpent Sting from another Hunter so it applies the Bonus Damage from the Steady Shot Glyph without having to put the Sting into our rotation? I couldn't find anything like that.

There isn't yet. I remember this, but never got around to testing it myself. It's confirmed that's the way it's supposed to work then?

I'll take it along for the next version.

Miya Mirage · 10/10/08, 1:52 PM

Actually I haven't tested it yet. Everytime I think of it and log on, somehow the beta server just doesn't work, so I never got around to it yet. I'll go on and test it out for you as soon as the servers allow me to log on and I'll let you know.

In that line, can anyone give me a headsup on a ranged weapon with a fixed or extremely small damage range that's still available on beta? My crossbow has been changed to have a pretty large weapon range and thus doesn't cut it for testing such things anymore.

Shandara · 10/10/08, 1:59 PM

Originally Posted by Miya Mirage

Actually I haven't tested it yet. Everytime I think of it and log on, somehow the beta server just doesn't work, so I never got around to it yet. I'll go on and test it out for you as soon as the servers allow me to log on and I'll let you know.

In that line, can anyone give me a headsup on a ranged weapon with a fixed or extremely small damage range that's still available on beta? My crossbow has been changed to have a pretty large weapon range and thus doesn't cut it for testing such things anymore.

Did they change the Fine Light Crossbow then? Still my staple for testing and available from vendors near you!

Miya Mirage · 10/10/08, 3:23 PM

No they didn't. I had some other crossbow which I ditched since the damage range changed. I bought one of them Fine Light Crossbows in Undercity, got someone to make me the glyph and found another hunter to test it with, and here we go:

Steady Shot with no Serpent Sting:

Steady Shot with Serpent Sting active from another Hunter who was in my group:

Steady Shot with my own Serpent Sting active:

I was untalented to not have any talentprocs and I removed all items I wore that had any procs to not scew the results. I also have only the Glyph of Steady Shot and no other glyphs.

So no need to put that option in I asked for

huntcaudata · 10/10/08, 3:54 PM

I'm seeing something strange, and I cannot figure it out. My non-auto shot dps increases with haste, even when I am already GCD capped. I've checked everything I can think of, from talents to equipment with procs, that might increase steady-shot dps because of auto-shot hitting more, but I can't find anything. Is the haste calculation doing anything funky to come up with results?

Shandara · 10/10/08, 4:01 PM

Originally Posted by huntcaudata

I'm seeing something strange, and I cannot figure it out. My non-auto shot dps increases with haste, even when I am already GCD capped. I've checked everything I can think of, from talents to equipment with procs, that might increase steady-shot dps because of auto-shot hitting more, but I can't find anything. Is the haste calculation doing anything funky to come up with results?

More auto shots is more crits/hits is more procs from various things that proc off hits or crits. It should have a fairly minimal effect on Steady DPS though.

Steady Shot is only really affected by procs through your AP. Depending on what gear you have that procs +AP you should notice a tiny increase in uptime through more auto-shots and hence slightly more AP. The same goes for Expose Weakness if you're SV.

huntcaudata · 10/10/08, 4:06 PM

Originally Posted by Shandara

More auto shots is more crits/hits is more procs from various things that proc off hits or crits. It should have a fairly minimal effect on Steady DPS though.

Steady Shot is only really affected by procs through your AP. Depending on what gear you have that procs +AP you should notice a tiny increase in uptime through more auto-shots and hence slightly more AP.

This is exactly what I thought and I took pains to avoid it. No GfTT, no Wild Quiver or EW, and finally just no talents at all. No equipment with any proc on it (I originally had the SSO neck, but even without it, I still see a dps increase from haste).

Aha, I just figured it out. It's because of the new automatic calculation of AotH utilization. So, hey, that code works.

Miya Mirage · 10/10/08, 10:11 PM

Something odd I noticed in the Viper-Calculation:

How exactly do I interpret the "Viper Time needed to last fight: -0,26"

Edit: Viper setting is "Viper - Regen"

KraxisSingular · 10/10/08, 11:54 PM

Originally Posted by Miya Mirage

Something odd I noticed in the Viper-Calculation:

How exactly do I interpret the "Viper Time needed to last fight: -0,26"

Edit: Viper setting is "Viper - Regen"

Sounds like you have set te fight to be done in Viper, so it will naturally compute how much time you need to run OOM and then go Viper... and I guess you see the point since you are already in Viper. You can never run out.

Shandara · 10/11/08, 4:06 AM

It is a case I haven't made an exception for yet. With a 6 minute fight it takes 366 secs (or 6min 6s) for him to run OOM, naturally he doesn't need to spend time in Viper at all then. Hence the figure is slightly negative. This would apply for the Viper - OOM, i.e. be OOM at the end of the fight setting.

But since his setting his Viper - regen (i.e. indeterminate fight length and regen to full every time) the Viper uptime is still calculated.

So it's just a visual bug, I'll correct it for the next version.

TheIceMan · 10/11/08, 7:05 AM

Why is there no lvl 73 boss avaible @ target options ?
Is it not intendent to use the spreadsheep @ lvl 70 with 3.0.2 patch?

Shandara · 10/11/08, 7:10 AM

Originally Posted by TheIceMan

Why is there no lvl 73 boss avaible @ target options ?
Is it not intendent to use the spreadsheep @ lvl 70 with 3.0.2 patch?

Use a custom target and set the level to 73 and armor to what you want. But no, the sheet is primarily targetted at level 80 raiding.

But it should be working for level 70 as well.