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05/10/09, 10:46 AM
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#2371
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King Hippo
Orc Hunter
Tarren Mill (EU)
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Originally Posted by Slappywag
The spreadsheet doesn't even put it in the top 10, which seems odd because other sites (and people) are telling me it's one of the best with the armor penetration change (at least, probably better than some 5-man trinket).
Which was why I was querying it.
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As someone already answered, if you can put the +hit to use it's a good trinket. However if it's really good is a complex question, especially when concerning hit. Hit is a stat you need to maximize and because you don't need that much of it, where you get it from becomes very important and is most likely the single most important decision in your gear layout. Having so much hit from one item is not that good, because it precludes you from using a lot of gear. This then dictates pretty much the rest of your gear layout and may force you into making gear decisions that are not so good. This touches on something I was talking about in this post.
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05/10/09, 11:03 AM
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#2372
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Von Kaiser
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Actually, on the Gear Planner tab, if you set "Assume 100% hit" to "No", you will get Grim Toll listed as #5. Same place with Wrathstone. Darkmoon Card: Greatness and Mjonir Runestone being the only ones with more than 20dps delta from it.
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05/10/09, 3:28 PM
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#2373
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Bald Bull
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I'm confused as to what exactly the "Assume 100% hit" option does. My best understanding is that if you are not hit-capped, this option will treat you as hit-capped for determining the value of hit on gear (and that is has no effect if you are actually hit-capped).
If this is accurate (and correct me, please, otherwise), would it be possible to get an opposite option. That is, an option that allows the spreadsheet to count hit towards an item's DPS value even if not hit-capped?
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05/10/09, 3:42 PM
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#2374
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Slappywag
Just curious, isn't [Grim Toll] a lot better with the new armor penetration changes? Surely at least decent enough to be on the top 10 list in Gear Planner? Or am I mistaken?
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I have Grim Toll equipped and in my sheet, it is rated as BiS in the second trinket slot because it is the thing that maximizes my hit. I do not have the assume 100% feature on either.
There is a bug in the second trinket slot however. Only a few of the trinkets will show the delta as a - from the one you have equipped. The rest of them that are sorted below the equipped one will show a delta number without a minus sign that seems to make no sense at all when compared to the delta given at the bottom for the equipped item (some will have a higher number). The first trinket slot works fine. The deltas given in both slots however do not translate over to the gear page when you plug the items in. you get very different changes than the planner suggests. The old system of having both trinkets in the same frame of the planner worked better.
Last edited by Dch48 : 05/10/09 at 3:56 PM.
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05/10/09, 4:19 PM
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#2375
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Great Tiger
Night Elf Hunter
Azjol-Nerub (EU)
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Originally Posted by Dch48
I have Grim Toll equipped and in my sheet, it is rated as BiS in the second trinket slot because it is the thing that maximizes my hit. I do not have the assume 100% feature on either.
There is a bug in the second trinket slot however. Only a few of the trinkets will show the delta as a - from the one you have equipped. The rest of them that are sorted below the equipped one will show a delta number without a minus sign that seems to make no sense at all when compared to the delta given at the bottom for the equipped item (some will have a higher number). The first trinket slot works fine. The deltas given in both slots however do not translate over to the gear page when you plug the items in. you get very different changes than the planner suggests. The old system of having both trinkets in the same frame of the planner worked better.
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The old system was limited in that it could sort only one way though. The 2nd trinket slot is currently reading the dps value from the wrong column (same as 1st trinket slot). Since it IS being sorted on the 2nd column in the background the values look strange. This will be fixed in the next version.
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05/10/09, 8:59 PM
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#2376
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Glass Joe
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I really can't see how any hunter could do without this sheet, it really is just absolutely amazing
One thing though (sorry it might have been covered but I have not read all 95 pages of thread) why are we not getting the +3% Crit from Meta Gem "Relentless Earthsiege Diamond"
I also seem to be loosing crit somewhere else as in game my crit is 28.32% with no buffs and on the sheet it only shows 23.52% Crit
EDIT: The sheet also shows that I have 16 gems socketed where in actual fact I only have 13
Last edited by Snaile : 05/10/09 at 9:06 PM.
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05/10/09, 9:45 PM
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#2377
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Banned
Blood Elf Hunter
Runetotem (EU)
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Originally Posted by Snaile
One thing though (sorry it might have been covered but I have not read all 95 pages of thread) why are we not getting the +3% Crit from Meta Gem "Relentless Earthsiege Diamond"
EDIT: The sheet also shows that I have 16 gems socketed where in actual fact I only have 13
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If I have understood you correctly you are asking why you don't get 3% crit from the meta, right? Well, that's how the meta is. It doesn't give you crit (aside from what the Agi gives), what it does provide you with is 3% critdamage. Think of it like Mortal Shots (only it isn't exactly like that, though it along those lines).
The number of gems mentioned can be misleading. But this is only because it tracks the three colours individually, so purple, orange and green all count as two colours each. And a prismatic counts as three. That is why the count seems higher.
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05/10/09, 10:45 PM
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#2378
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Glass Joe
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On the gear planner. Am i reading it right? the higher the delta the better the gear? I am seeing Lotrafen at 226.49 and my 2 1-handers at a total delta of 265.23, leading me to believe that they are superior to the polearm.
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05/10/09, 10:49 PM
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#2379
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Don Flamenco
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The delta is the difference in DPS. A positive delta means its a DPS gain and a negative means its a DPS loss. They are not the specific DPS value of the item.
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05/11/09, 3:30 AM
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#2380
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by KraxisSingular
If I have understood you correctly you are asking why you don't get 3% crit from the meta, right? Well, that's how the meta is. It doesn't give you crit (aside from what the Agi gives), what it does provide you with is 3% critdamage. Think of it like Mortal Shots (only it isn't exactly like that, though it along those lines).
The number of gems mentioned can be misleading. But this is only because it tracks the three colours individually, so purple, orange and green all count as two colours each. And a prismatic counts as three. That is why the count seems higher.
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Sorry looked again and noticed its 3% Crit Damage :s I have always read it as 3% Crit.
I am still loosing crit somewhere then as in game I have 28.32% and on the sheet I have 23.53%
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05/11/09, 3:55 AM
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#2381
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Great Tiger
Night Elf Hunter
Azjol-Nerub (EU)
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Originally Posted by Snaile
I really can't see how any hunter could do without this sheet, it really is just absolutely amazing
One thing though (sorry it might have been covered but I have not read all 95 pages of thread) why are we not getting the +3% Crit from Meta Gem "Relentless Earthsiege Diamond"
I also seem to be loosing crit somewhere else as in game my crit is 28.32% with no buffs and on the sheet it only shows 23.52% Crit
EDIT: The sheet also shows that I have 16 gems socketed where in actual fact I only have 13
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The gem count is more a color count, it shows how much gems match either Red, Yellow or Blue. So multi-color gems will add to both colors.
You're not losing crit, but there's a few factors involved:
a) Your in-game crit displayed is versus a level 80 mob, versus a level 83 you will suffer some. Testing revealed a crit depression of roughly 4.2%.
b) The displayed crit % in the sheet includes procs from talents and gear (i.e. Master Tactician).
c) It also includes buffs on the target
After adding/subtracting all this the sheet ends up at 23.52% _effective_ crit rate.
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05/11/09, 9:52 AM
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#2382
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Glass Joe
Dwarf Hunter
Moonglade (EU)
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Hi im noticing something in the spreedsheet that i canot explain.
When i check how much i benefit from stats i get this numbers:
Agility + 1 1,030 1,030
AP + 1 0,625 1,250
Crit + 1 0,618 0,618 Needed to cap Hit:
Hunter Hit + 1 0,000 0,000 1
Pet Hit + 1 0,000 0,000 1
Int + 1 0,656 0,656
ArP Rating+1 0,783 0,783
Haste + 1 0,499 0,499
Stamina+1 0,000 0,000
Mp5 0,000 0,000
Haste Cap+1: 0,499 Haste to Cap 0
But when i chancge my buffs Drenai aura to NO and food to Snapper Extreme i get these numbers
Agility + 1 0,791 0,791
AP + 1 0,384 0,767
Crit + 1 0,616 0,616 Needed to cap Hit: For Pet:
Hunter Hit + 1 0,000 0,000 -6 -32
Pet Hit + 1 0,000 0,000 -7 -33
Int + 1 0,417 0,417
ArP Rating+1 0,777 0,777
Haste + 1 0,495 0,495
Stamina+1 0,000 0,000
Mp5 0,000 0,000
Haste Cap+1: 0,495 Haste to Cap 0
I wuld like to know whay does the AP fall behind Aggi. As i am BM spec and whay do the numbers chancge so much. Thanks
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05/11/09, 4:04 PM
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#2383
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chiefly comprised of water
Tsook
Troll Hunter
No WoW Account
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I was thinking about how to design the UI so that it would be easier to make decisions around hit cap. The way the gear planner works currently, (assuming you are capped), it will nearly always recommend a new piece with hit for any slot that has hit in it already, and discourage a new piece with hit for any slot without hit in it already (because it simply looks at the DPS delta of subtracting the value of the stats on the current item and adding the stats of the new item). This makes it more difficult to make decisions that involve swapping more than one piece in order to stay hitcapped, or evaluate which of several hit-containing items is better in situations where you know you can maintain hit capped regardless with various banked items or gems.
"Assume 100% hit" is useful, and as was just suggested, "Assume 0% hit" could also be useful, but maybe we're thinking about the problem wrong. It doesn't matter where we get the hit from -- in some sense the dps value of hit on an item is interchangeable between items: 10 hit rating on your helm is the same DPS as 10 hit rating on your legs.
It seems like, in the gear planner, a breakdown could make this clearer: have two DPS numbers for each item. One number is how much DPS the item represents excluding the effect of hit, and the second number is just the amount of DPS that the hit on the item represents by itself (I suppose you might also want a third number which is just the total that we see today). So in a slot where you have a hit piece equipped, you can see at a glance that (e.g.) 20 of its DPS value is from the hit on it, and that other option that's 5 slots down in the list is actually much more DPS (if you can get hit capped elsewhere). I think it would still make sense to sort by the total DPS delta, just as it is today, as that's still an accurate representation of what would happen if you made that exact swap and only that swap.
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05/11/09, 7:03 PM
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#2384
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Glass Joe
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Gear-less stats at level 80
I'm working on the Rawr.Hunter update and am in need of the base stats for each race at level 80. There is some debate on the variance in base health values used on this sheet. If someone could point me to the source for these values or how they were arrived at that would be greatly appreciated.
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05/11/09, 7:29 PM
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#2385
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Banned
Blood Elf Hunter
Runetotem (EU)
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Originally Posted by Thuor
Hi im noticing something in the spreedsheet that i canot explain.
When i check how much i benefit from stats i get this numbers:
Agility + 1 1,030 1,030
AP + 1 0,625 1,250
Crit + 1 0,618 0,618 Needed to cap Hit:
Hunter Hit + 1 0,000 0,000 1
Pet Hit + 1 0,000 0,000 1
Int + 1 0,656 0,656
ArP Rating+1 0,783 0,783
Haste + 1 0,499 0,499
Stamina+1 0,000 0,000
Mp5 0,000 0,000
Haste Cap+1: 0,499 Haste to Cap 0
But when i chancge my buffs Drenai aura to NO and food to Snapper Extreme i get these numbers
Agility + 1 0,791 0,791
AP + 1 0,384 0,767
Crit + 1 0,616 0,616 Needed to cap Hit: For Pet:
Hunter Hit + 1 0,000 0,000 -6 -32
Pet Hit + 1 0,000 0,000 -7 -33
Int + 1 0,417 0,417
ArP Rating+1 0,777 0,777
Haste + 1 0,495 0,495
Stamina+1 0,000 0,000
Mp5 0,000 0,000
Haste Cap+1: 0,495 Haste to Cap 0
I wuld like to know whay does the AP fall behind Aggi. As i am BM spec and whay do the numbers chancge so much. Thanks
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It's rather simple. It is the bane of BM being so petcentric and not having enough stats that gets transfered to the pet.
Agility is a better scaling stat, however it doesn't beat AP initially due to the amount of damage the pet does in relation to the Hunter.
A newly raiding BM will gain a lot more from AP than Agility because his pet does the amount of damage it does. But he gains new and better gear the pet will slowly lose relative DPS compared to the Hunter. And then at some point it becomes more worthwhile to boost hte Hunter's damage than the pet's.
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