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Old 06/03/09, 7:32 AM   #2716
Shandara
Great Tiger
 
Shandara's Avatar
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Azjol-Nerub (EU)
Originally Posted by Whitemane View Post
Where did you add this? Is it in the current version? I can't seem to find it.
It will be in the next version, naturally.


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Old 06/03/09, 10:51 AM   #2717
CALMSTORM
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Silvermoon (EU)
Hello...
Many thanks for the huge effort. I have a question... Once my talents and shot rotation is set... Changing priority of shots never has any effect on calculating dps (ofcourse excluding errors such as putting steady to top so it never allows any other shot to be fired) ... Is this intended / natural (due to extreme hardship/impossibility ) or am I doing something wrong ??

Before you ask.. I think I tried everything to check... Still For example putting Explosive before or after Serpent sting, or changing priority of aimed never changes the overall dps...

Thanks in advance

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Old 06/03/09, 11:53 AM   #2718
Dralmoo
Don Flamenco
 
Orc Hunter
 
Shadowmoon
It would be interesting to have an option to 'miss' some steadyshots at a defined frequency to simulate movement fights. If I set the frequency to 10%, then 10% of steady shots that would be cast are just downtime where only autoshot is cast.

Wow Web Stats

there's a thorim hardmode attempt with a 17% uptime. I don't think I had to move at all once he came down, so it is reflective of some real world situations.

Last edited by Dralmoo : 06/03/09 at 12:05 PM.

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Old 06/03/09, 11:57 AM   #2719
Slona
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Dragonblight (EU)
Pawn string

Is that just me or is the Pawn string on the Overview tab broken?

I finally got hit capped and expected the Pawn string to contain a "HitRating=0" now. Actually that did happen when I first clicked the "CalcAttributes" button. But now I see a negative value in "Needed to cap Hit" and I still get "HitRating=1.063" in my Pawn string.

Is that me clicking the wrong buttons or what???

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Old 06/03/09, 12:23 PM   #2720
Shandara
Great Tiger
 
Shandara's Avatar
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Azjol-Nerub (EU)
Originally Posted by Slona View Post
Is that just me or is the Pawn string on the Overview tab broken?

I finally got hit capped and expected the Pawn string to contain a "HitRating=0" now. Actually that did happen when I first clicked the "CalcAttributes" button. But now I see a negative value in "Needed to cap Hit" and I still get "HitRating=1.063" in my Pawn string.

Is that me clicking the wrong buttons or what???
The value of +hit isn't 0 when you are hit-capped. The hit you have on gear at that moment is still worth dps (which you would lose if you lost hit). The sheet needs to know what hit is worth to determine upgrades/downgrades even when you are hit-capped.

Naturally any hit on items that takes you above the hit-capped is discounted.


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Old 06/03/09, 12:37 PM   #2721
Iru
Don Flamenco
 
Iru's Avatar
 
Draenei Hunter
 
Muradin
Originally Posted by CALMSTORM View Post
Hello...
Many thanks for the huge effort. I have a question... Once my talents and shot rotation is set... Changing priority of shots never has any effect on calculating dps (ofcourse excluding errors such as putting steady to top so it never allows any other shot to be fired) ... Is this intended / natural (due to extreme hardship/impossibility ) or am I doing something wrong ??
Use the rotation test if you want to see the affect of changing shot order. By default the spreadsheet uses a percentage model so it doesn't matter what order things are in.

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Old 06/03/09, 3:55 PM   #2722
Seoman
Von Kaiser
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Kirin Tor
By default, the Settings tab assumes that the last 20% of boss health will last 20% of the time of the fight (Row 27). This overvalues Kill Shot and its Glyph since many classes have abilities (like Kill Shot) which are operative during this time, together with blowing cooldowns (like Heroism), which help to increase DPS and thus shorten the duration of the end of the fight.

Happily, Shandara has included the ability to modify this number. So if the default for a 6 minute fight is 1.2 minutes, we could say, for example, that the last 20% of Boss health goes down 50% more quickly than the rest of the fight and make the value 0.9.

This being a fairly arbitrary stab in the right direction, is it possible to calculate a more realistic estimate?

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Old 06/03/09, 5:44 PM   #2723
Whitefyst
Great Tiger
 
Orc Hunter
 
Draenor
Originally Posted by Seoman View Post
By default, the Settings tab assumes that the last 20% of boss health will last 20% of the time of the fight (Row 27). This overvalues Kill Shot and its Glyph since many classes have abilities (like Kill Shot) which are operative during this time, together with blowing cooldowns (like Heroism), which help to increase DPS and thus shorten the duration of the end of the fight.

Happily, Shandara has included the ability to modify this number. So if the default for a 6 minute fight is 1.2 minutes, we could say, for example, that the last 20% of Boss health goes down 50% more quickly than the rest of the fight and make the value 0.9.

This being a fairly arbitrary stab in the right direction, is it possible to calculate a more realistic estimate?
It is not realistic for general use since not everybody's raid operates the same way nor does even the same raid use the same basic strategy for every boss. complicating factors include:

- How haste effects are used/procs
- Is Bloodlust/Heroism used early or late in the encounter
- When are other on-use haste effects (such as Rapid Fire) used
- The RNG on procing haste effects (such as QS)
- The raid make up. How many of each class that has extra damage under certain conditions do you have and how much that class increases average DPS when the conditions are met
- The nature of the fight.
- Is it a stand still fight where DPS is greater and abilities proc more or often? Or is it a movement fight with lesser DPS?
- Does the nature of the fight change during various phases that makes DPS larger or greater over the various phases?
- How does the fight affect resources for performing abilities? Is the raid resource defficient over the last part of the fight?
- Individual's play style/competence/gear level
- How many people are alive the full battle
- etc.

There are just two many variables to take into account for a global realistic estimate.

The spreadsheet is a very powerful and great tool that has been worked on very hard by certain individuals who have made being an effective hunter easier, but it does not perform miracles. The spreadsheet does a great job of modeling the ideal situation. It even has some additional configuration features that allows you to tailor it more specifically for your situation, but there is only so much that can be realistically done, especially if the people working on the spreadsheet want to actually enjoy playing WoW too instead of just theorycrafting it.

The spreadsheet does a lot for us, but we are still responsible for some of the work ourselves, such as how to interpret what the spreadsheet is telling us for the ideal cases and then trying to extrapolate the results to your specific play style and raid situation to determine the decisions that are best for your situation.

If someone wants a more realistic estimate of the % of Kill Shot available time for bosses in their raids, then it is up to you to determine that value from data from your raids and use the configuration options available in the spreadsheet to see how it affects the results.

However, I wouldn't want the results from your raids in my spreadsheet since it may not be applicable to my situation.

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Old 06/03/09, 6:10 PM   #2724
Seoman
Von Kaiser
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Kirin Tor
@Whitefyst I agree with all of the things you said, do not believe that the spreadsheet can perform miracles, do believe that we are responsible for much of the work ourselves, and most of all am thankful that the spreadsheet exists in all of its glory due to the hard work and dedication of a bunch of people, most of all Shandara.

However, if we all agree that the last 20% of a Boss' health will almost never - on average - last 20% of the length of a fight, then it makes sense to throw the question out, asking for some consensus on what a more reasonable assumption might be.

Put another way, if the spreadsheet best models a Patchwerk-style fight, would you think it likely that the last 20% of Patchwerk takes 20% of the time, on average?

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Old 06/03/09, 6:38 PM   #2725
Whitefyst
Great Tiger
 
Orc Hunter
 
Draenor
Originally Posted by Seoman View Post
@Whitefyst I agree with all of the things you said, do not believe that the spreadsheet can perform miracles, do believe that we are responsible for much of the work ourselves, and most of all am thankful that the spreadsheet exists in all of its glory due to the hard work and dedication of a bunch of people, most of all Shandara.

However, if we all agree that the last 20% of a Boss' health will almost never - on average - last 20% of the length of a fight, then it makes sense to throw the question out, asking for some consensus on what a more reasonable assumption might be.

Put another way, if the spreadsheet best models a Patchwerk-style fight, would you think it likely that the last 20% of Patchwerk takes 20% of the time, on average?
Sorry, my complete post was not necessarily a response to you. I just happened to be replying to your post and expressed some concerns I had from comments that several people have made recently about the spreadsheet. Your request was much more reasonable than some others I have read.

I agree that for most guilds that the last 20% of a Patchwerk type fight takes less than 20% of the time.

My first point is how much lesser of a percentage of the time is very dependent on the particular situation. If this precentage was hardcoded into the spreadsheet, I would readily agree that the value should probably be modified to some more average value but only as long as how the value was derived was plainly defined and understood so that each hunter could extrapolate the results for their particular situation.

My second point is that I do not think that doing so is necessary. The spreadsheet allows us to tailor the Kill Shot available time percentage however it suits us for our particular situation. As such, I think a very reasonable default is that the last 20% of the boss health takes 20% of the time. Any other estimate would have to have knowledge of how different classes work and make assumptions of the competence, gearing, strategy, and raid composition of the average raid while the 20% assumption is pretty clear and straightfoward. Now it is just a matter of a hunter entering a more realistic non-default value for their situation or extrapolating from the 20% default.

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Old 06/03/09, 6:59 PM   #2726
Lerastes
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Hunter
 
Cenarion Circle
Originally Posted by Whitefyst View Post
Sorry, my complete post was not necessarily a response to you. I just happened to be replying to your post and expressed some concerns I had from comments that several people have made recently about the spreadsheet. Your request was much more reasonable than some others I have read.

I agree that for most guilds that the last 20% of a Patchwerk type fight takes less than 20% of the time.

My first point is how much lesser of a percentage of the time is very dependent on the particular situation. If this precentage was hardcoded into the spreadsheet, I would readily agree that the value should probably be modified to some more average value but only as long as how the value was derived was plainly defined and understood so that each hunter could extrapolate the results for their particular situation.

My second point is that I do not think that doing so is necessary. The spreadsheet allows us to tailor the Kill Shot available time percentage however it suits us for our particular situation. As such, I think a very reasonable default is that the last 20% of the boss health takes 20% of the time. Any other estimate would have to have knowledge of how different classes work and make assumptions of the competence, gearing, strategy, and raid composition of the average raid while the 20% assumption is pretty clear and straightfoward. Now it is just a matter of a hunter entering a more realistic non-default value for their situation or extrapolating from the 20% default.
In cases when comparing something like Kill Shot, whose value can vary greatly depending on the fight and when you Bloodlust or something, to Chimera Shot, whose value is largely the same through the entire fight, I'd probably go with the more constant one even if it's a small DPS loss. If it's rather large, in the 100+ range, I'd have to do some experimenting. This is just the nature of the spreadsheet. Just like you can't model a fight like Razorscale, you can't model individual raid groups and player performance; it's up to you to figure out what's best for your raid group and play style when confronted with something like Glyph of Kill Shot vs Chiimera Shot because the spreadsheet simply can not do it for you.

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Old 06/04/09, 1:20 AM   #2727
Kharthus
Piston Honda
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Deathwing
delete

Last edited by Kharthus : 06/04/09 at 1:25 AM.

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Old 06/04/09, 10:31 AM   #2728
Bikiniwax
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Laughing Skull
Originally Posted by Shandara View Post
@Bikiniwax:
I've had reports of this bug but I have been unable to reproduce it as yet Can you see what steps you did to make it bug out? Merely changing the latency to 250 ms and re-running the test works normally for me.
Shandara,

I am not sure why I still get the error. If I enter latencies of 234, 235, 250, 264, 290 I get the error. These are just some of the latencies that I have tested. For example, 230-233 all work as does 265.

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Old 06/04/09, 10:44 AM   #2729
Shandara
Great Tiger
 
Shandara's Avatar
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Azjol-Nerub (EU)
Originally Posted by Bikiniwax View Post
Shandara,

I am not sure why I still get the error. If I enter latencies of 234, 235, 250, 264, 290 I get the error. These are just some of the latencies that I have tested. For example, 230-233 all work as does 265.
Any particular rotation? I.e. did you change the default?


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Old 06/04/09, 12:12 PM   #2730
Bikiniwax
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Laughing Skull
I never changed the SV default shot rotation.

1. I entered in my name and server info.
2. I renamed the profiles and talent spec on the Overview tab.
3. I loaded my gear via Armoury
4. I loaded my 15/56 spec via Armoury
5. I did touch anything on the Rotation tab (latency still set to 200) and went to the Shot Rotation tab and ran that. It worked fine.
6. I went to the Overview tab and clicked the Calculate button
7. I went to the gear planner tab and clicked the Ranged Weapon button and then the Gear Sort button
8. I went back to the Rotation tab and changed the latency to 250 ms (which is about where I raid at)
9. Then I went to the Shot Rotation tab and ran that and I keep getting the error. The last shot is ALWAYS Steady Shot at 7 sec, then the error pop-up is displayed.

After that, changing the latency back to 200 will not fix the problem. I have to exit the spreadsheet and re-open it to get it to work again at 200 ms.

This was happening for both SV 5/56 and MM 7/57/7 specs, always showing Steady Shot at 7 sec then getting the error.

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