WotLK DPS spreadsheet - Page 19

Mathorli · 10/06/08, 5:31 PM

I think the point, is that the spell your casting is Bestial Wrath, which only effects the pet. Its a different talent that sends us into the rage too. But all in all, it is most likely to keep our BM dps in balance.

Hellraza · 10/07/08, 5:31 AM

First of all, you have done a really good job with the spreadsheet so far. Keep it up.

Now, I have posted like 1-2 times before on the EJ forums so I am sorry if the thing I am going to say has already been brought up. Tried searching the post quickly but couldn't find anything.
Anyway, I was playing around with the talents today and noticed that Rapid Recuperation is 3 points in the spreadsheet and it should be 2. Also, at the Rotation Test tab the number of Serpent Stings always remains 0, no matter where I put it in the priority list. I am sure I am missing something, but I cant figure out what.

Shandara · 10/07/08, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Hellraza

First of all, you have done a really good job with the spreadsheet so far. Keep it up.

Now, I have posted like 1-2 times before on the EJ forums so I am sorry if the thing I am going to say has already been brought up. Tried searching the post quickly but couldn't find anything.
Anyway, I was playing around with the talents today and noticed that Rapid Recuperation is 3 points in the spreadsheet and it should be 2. Also, at the Rotation Test tab the number of Serpent Stings always remains 0, no matter where I put it in the priority list. I am sure I am missing something, but I cant figure out what.

Most oftenly people put the shots in the wrong order. You want Steady Shot as the _lowest_ priority, so put Serpent Sting and any other shots above it.

Thanks for catching the Rapid Recuperation thing. It's not implemented at the moment so I hadn't really kept up with the talent points involved.

Ravenfire · 10/07/08, 1:35 PM

Shandara,

There appears to be an error in the calculation of Scorpid Poison on the pet calculation tab. It looks like the dps of the ability is calculated as (damage modifier / duration) leaving out the actual damage of the ability and giving a 5 stack of Scorpid poison a dps of less then 1.

Edit: Found another error; Delicate Cardinal Ruby's are counted as yellow gems instead of red gems.

KraxisSingular · 10/07/08, 2:21 PM

Originally Posted by Mathorli

I think the point, is that the spell your casting is Bestial Wrath, which only effects the pet. Its a different talent that sends us into the rage too. But all in all, it is most likely to keep our BM dps in balance.

This has been argued in many other places. Readiness affects Kill Command and Master's Call which can hardly be called different from Bestial Wrath or Intimidation. The semantics are useless as this is most likely an intended exeption from the rule of Hunter abilities. All of the above are after all Hunter spells that affect the pet, not pet spells, hence Bestial Wrath and Intimidation should be affected. You can see this in the wording of Longevity, Bestial Wrath, Intimidation and pet specials. That sets the pet abilities apart from the two Hunter abilities. And the fact that Longevity doesn't affect Kill Command or Master's Call.

Obviously the need to balance something required the difference. You can then argue if it is fair or not, but that is an entirely different issue.

Shandara · 10/07/08, 2:57 PM

Originally Posted by Ravenfire

Shandara,

There appears to be an error in the calculation of Scorpid Poison on the pet calculation tab. It looks like the dps of the ability is calculated as (damage modifier / duration) leaving out the actual damage of the ability and giving a 5 stack of Scorpid poison a dps of less then 1.

True, it's been messed up by various changes over time. I'll have it fixed for next version.

On another note, what's the scaling on it now? 42.875% like the other 'magical' abilities?

Update:

- You can now select the pet's GCD on the Pet tab. Use either 1.25s (tested) or 1.5 (assumed) or your own value
- Rapid Recuperation is now 2 ranks
- Various fixed to items/enchants, added a few missing ones
- Explosive Shot affected by Mortal Shots again
- Hunter's Mark rank 5 is now level 76 (instead of 68)
- Fixed Delicate Cardinal Ruby

zoujin · 10/08/08, 9:31 AM

Originally Posted by Shandara

That sort of logic doesn't often count with Blizzard though. It's probably intentional and intended to curb BM dps/PvP.

Except that 52/14/5 does similar dps, or 1-2 points moved to invigoration it has better longevity.

I have a few suggestions regarding mm and sv setups. The BM's gear seems to be better for the other two specs, and these marksman and survival builds give me better dps. An aspect of the hawk or tsa glyph is more appropiate than than bestial wrath, too.

I realize it's something everyone should do for themselves, but I think mm and sv looks a bit nicer with 5-600 extra dps. (Sv went from 5.1k to 5.7k and mm from 5.5k to 6.1k.) Plus the spreadsheet is a tool for finding the best dps specs, and those above are better than the current ones.

Using a raptor (because rake is broken) also reduces the gap a little more, but somehow I doubt they are finished with pet damage.

One last thing. Now that with viper we have practically infinte mana pool (unless they nerf it back to uselessness), could it be useful to calculate weighted dps? (dps in viper*time in viper to full mana + dps in hawk*time in hawk till oom)/(hawk + viper time) On paper it doesn't change things that much, just shows how good viper is.

Shandara · 10/08/08, 11:23 AM

I haven't really been updating the pre-set specs/gear sets, so it's likely out of whack.

The Viper weighted DPS thing has been on my mind for a while. I'll get around to it one of these days.

EDIT:
Made a quick addition of the Aspect of the Viper thing, it's on the Shot Rotation tab. Same button as the 'Calculate Averages'.

I'll probably integrate both the Kill Shot logic and the Aspect of the Viper into one soonish, so you can see what your DPS is in a boss fight of XX minutes long.

Indora · 10/09/08, 8:50 AM

I dislike the 'Calculate Average' button.
It's result doesn't effect the calculations.

I think it would be a better idea to add 3 options to the aspect selection:
-always the same
-viper: mana regen
-viper: time to oom

The first option will set the uptime of the selected aspect to 100%.
The other two calculate the needed uptime of the viper aspect to regenerate all the mana lost / regenerate enough mana to be oom at the end of the fight (after 10 minutes in the default settings) and fills the remaining time with Hawk.

Examples:
-Viper: mana regen:

Time to oom: 500 seconds
Time to full: 15 seconds
Viper uptime: 15 / (15 + 500) = 2,9%
Hawk uptime: 1 - 0.029 = 97,1%

-Viper: time to oom:

Fight length: 10 minutes
Mana: 12.000
Mana used per second: 160
Mana regen per second: 100
Mana used in 10 minutes: 36.000
Viper mana regen per Second: 1.000
Needed Seconds of Viper: (36.000 - 12.000) / 1.000 = 24
Viper Uptime: 24 / (10*60) = 4%
Hawk Uptime: 1-0.04 = 96%

Now include the uptime of each aspect to it's effect (Hawk ap = previous ap * uptime) and your calculations are again a bit more precise.

In addition, it would be nice to compare mana regen through aspect of the viper to mana regen through Chimera + Vipern Sting. I thought of something like:

Aspect of the Viper Mps per Dps =
(Mps regen through Viper) / (Dps with Hawk - Dps with Viper)

Viper Sting Mps per Dps =
(Mana regen through Chimera_Viper / Chimera frequency) / (Serpent Dps + (Chimera dmg with serpent - Chimera dmg with viper) / Chimera frequency)

As it's hard to define the Dps loss of using the Viper aspect / sting without VBA, I would recommend using it.
This isn't a problem as this calculation is just for comparison's sake and doesn't effect the calculations (unlike the aspect's uptime)

edit:
Now that I think of it, you may add the option to use Viper Sting for mana regen, too, as it's most likely better than using Aspect of the Viper (it wouldn't make any sense at all if it doesn't). With the calculated uptime of Aspect of the Viper / Viper Sting, Talents like efficiency can be included to actual dps calculations as decreasing the manacost increases the Aspect of the Hawk / Serpent Sting uptime and thus dps.

zoujin · 10/09/08, 9:26 AM

Originally Posted by Shandara

EDIT:
Made a quick addition of the Aspect of the Viper thing, it's on the Shot Rotation tab. Same button as the 'Calculate Averages'.

Wow, that was fast, thank you!

(The button tries to modify protected cells, I assume it's work in progress. But I found out I can play with macros too.)

Shandara · 10/09/08, 4:53 PM

Originally Posted by Indora

I dislike the 'Calculate Average' button.
It's result doesn't effect the calculations.

I think it would be a better idea to add 3 options to the aspect selection:
-always the same
-viper: mana regen
-viper: time to oom

The first option will set the uptime of the selected aspect to 100%.
The other two calculate the needed uptime of the viper aspect to regenerate all the mana lost / regenerate enough mana to be oom at the end of the fight (after 10 minutes in the default settings) and fills the remaining time with Hawk.
<snip>

Now include the uptime of each aspect to it's effect (Hawk ap = previous ap * uptime) and your calculations are again a bit more precise.
<snip>

As it's hard to define the Dps loss of using the Viper aspect / sting without VBA, I would recommend using it.
This isn't a problem as this calculation is just for comparison's sake and doesn't effect the calculations (unlike the aspect's uptime)

edit:
Now that I think of it, you may add the option to use Viper Sting for mana regen, too, as it's most likely better than using Aspect of the Viper (it wouldn't make any sense at all if it doesn't). With the calculated uptime of Aspect of the Viper / Viper Sting, Talents like efficiency can be included to actual dps calculations as decreasing the manacost increases the Aspect of the Hawk / Serpent Sting uptime and thus dps.

I'm going to re-do it like you suggested. This was just a quick hack to see if I could come up with something. I had something like you suggested in mind, but getting the right values for both regen and expenditure in both Hawk/Viper was a bit tricky.

Update:

- Reworked the AotV calculations to not require macros. 
- Hunter vs Wild now correctly adds AP to the pet
- Rapid Fire and Beast Within cooldowns modified to reflect the discussion in http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t28573-hunter_wotlk_talents_abilities_discussion/
- With the aspect you can select the behavior of Viper. "Always On" means never switch to Viper but stay in the selected Aspect. "Viper to OOM" means to use Viper as a means to last the duration of the boss fight (length selectable below). "Viper - Regen" means to use Viper to regen to full every time before continuining (i.e. indeterminate fight lengths)
- Added Viper Sting as a selectable shot. Exported profiles will not load correctly because of the added spells.

I've removed the Kill Shot logic for the moment, since it wasn't really easy to integrate into the AotV logic.

samfisher · 10/10/08, 6:43 AM

Hmm, I'm not sure how the new pull down menu in the shot rotation works. Viper to OOM and Viper - Regen? In the Aspect section it's Hawk, and only the Usage part is confusing me a little.

This is how I understand it:

Viper to OOM - Hawk and then Viper when you're OOM.

Viper - Regen, Viper when low, but not necessarily out of mana yet?

Both sound similiar so I don't really know =)

Shandara · 10/10/08, 7:24 AM

Originally Posted by samfisher

Hmm, I'm not sure how the new pull down menu in the shot rotation works. Viper to OOM and Viper - Regen? In the Aspect section it's Hawk, and only the Usage part is confusing me a little.

This is how I understand it:

Viper to OOM - Hawk and then Viper when you're OOM.

Viper - Regen, Viper when low, but not necessarily out of mana yet?

Both sound similiar so I don't really know =)

I'll quote from the change log:
"With the aspect you can select the behavior of Viper. "Always On" means never switch to Viper but stay in the selected Aspect. "Viper to OOM" means to use Viper as a means to last the duration of the boss fight (length selectable below). "Viper - Regen" means to use Viper to regen to full every time before continuining (i.e. indeterminate fight lengths)"

I know the names are clunky, but that's what Indorra was talking about above. Feel free to suggest a better naming scheme.

Viper - OOM = use Viper just enough so you're OOM at the end of the fight
Viper - regen = use Viper to regen mana to full every time you have to switch

Miya Mirage · 10/10/08, 11:37 AM

In the Pet Calculations Tab hunter to pet hit transfer is still marked as (NYI) and also calculated as such. I think its safe to assume it'll stay the way it is in beta right now and you can allow that to work

Rokh · 10/10/08, 11:48 AM

Can you check over the Blood Fury numbers? When I put it in the shot rotation tab my DPS goes down.. Don't tell me it's not worth the GCD to activate it, I'll cry.