WotLK DPS spreadsheet - Page 193

Dormonag · 06/18/09, 1:26 PM

Originally Posted by Desperada

I've been going over the spreadsheet and can't figure something out. The magnetized projectile emitter from 10man XT hard mode has the same dps as sirens/giants from 25man ulduar, good stats, red socket with a decent bonus, 3.0 speed, and the 27 hit rating is used to cap me for hit. But, the spreadsheet still shows it as a large downgrade from giant's bane and siren's cry, 38 and 44dps losses respectively. I can't figure out why the spreadsheet would be telling me that its such a large downgrade when everything in my 4+ years of playing a hunter tells me that it should be at least on par if not an upgrade because of the hit rating and slower speed boosting chim/aimed damage. According to the spreadsheet its even a downgrade from envoy of mortality from KT, and this is on the latest version of the spreadsheet. Anyone know whats going on here?

Click on the shot rotation button under the shot rotation tab and then the ranged weapon button under the gear upgrades tab and see if that doesn't resolve your issue. For all intents and purposes, if you are even utilizing the hit on the MPE in your setup it should be second only to the Skyforge.

• VRoscioli · 06/18/09, 1:41 PM

I know I've been harping on about this for a while, but I feel that it is important and something that would be useful for the spreadsheet, so here goes:

We currently have a setting on the Gear Planner tab which allows us to Assume 100% Hit (Yes/No). The behavior of this option, as I understand it, is that if this is set to Yes, all hit on all gear and gems is counted as 0 DPS, even if you are not at hit cap, whereas if this setting is set to No, you get the DPS benefit of hit on gear, gems, etc up to the point where you become hit capped. (So for instance, if you were 20 hit rating from cap and you are looking at a piece with 30 hit rating, 20 hit rating's worth of DPS is included in its DPS figure, not the full 30).

I feel that the spreadsheet should have another option, such as Ignore Hit Cap. Setting this option would allow the gear planner to fully value all of the hit rating on an item, regardless of how close or far you are from hit cap. (So, in the previous example, the item's DPS value would include all 30 hit rating worth of DPS, whether you had no hit gear, were hit capped, or were somewhere in between). This setting would be useful for many reasons, but I feel the most prominent of these is the fact that to some extent many of us can change some of our other sources of hit rating. Just because I am hit capped does not mean I do not value any hit on gear. If I get a piece with more hit rating than I currently have, I can regem or re-enchant something to provide a more useful stat. Or I could move a point out of Focused Aim and into another talent to increase my DPS.

For now, I suppose it is possible to emulate this behavior by setting a manual penalty to hit rating on the gear tab, but then this changes how much DPS I have displayed, and I'm not sure how it would interact with other aspects of the spreadsheet (as it basically tells the spreadsheet I am not hit capped when in actuality I am).

But that's just my 2 cents worth.

bobmarley753 · 06/18/09, 1:51 PM

Click on the shot rotation button under the shot rotation tab and then the ranged weapon button under the gear upgrades tab and see if that doesn't resolve your issue. For all intents and purposes, if you are even utilizing the hit on the MPE in your setup it should be second only to the Skyforge.

For someone that is over the hit cap from gear alone (as many of us are), the MPE will show up low on the gear planner, becuase the sheet counts the 27 hit on that gun as a zero dps increase. My current gear planner for SV, over hit cap, looks like this:

To get a better estimate of the relative value of the MPE you can equip it, then manually adjust your hit rating on the "gear" tab to 263. This assures that you are using all the hit rating from the gun. Doing this results in the planner looking like this:

So you can see the gun alone is not all that much an upgrade over either the Envoy or the Ulduar 25 weapons, if you can't use the hit rating. If you can grab a bunch of other items with no hit on them (boots, belt, rings, cloak, etc.) than it can edge them out in damage.

Seoman · 06/18/09, 1:55 PM

While it's true that setting a manual negative hit value on the gear tab will reduce your DPS, the point of the gear planner is to compare pieces of gear relative to each other, not necessarily related to your total DPS value (see how set bonuses skew things, for example).

Since each point of hit is worth the same regardless of which piece of gear it is coming from, setting a negative hit value is effective and would seem to be exactly what you want. For example, if you are "really" 20 hit away from the cap, but put in a negative hit value of -30, a piece with +60 hit should jump up in rank on the Gear Planner, since 50 hit can be used instead of only 20. You could also equip a new piece of gear which puts you over the cap, and run the calculation and check the gear planner for currently equipped pieces that have extra hit that is wasted, pushing them lower on the lists.

• VRoscioli · 06/18/09, 2:02 PM

Originally Posted by Seoman

While it's true that setting a manual negative hit value on the gear tab will reduce your DPS, the point of the gear planner is to compare pieces of gear relative to each other, not necessarily related to your total DPS value (see how set bonuses skew things, for example).

Since each point of hit is worth the same regardless of which piece of gear it is coming from, setting a negative hit value is effective and would seem to be exactly what you want. For example, if you are "really" 20 hit away from the cap, but put in a negative hit value of -30, a piece with +60 hit should jump up in rank on the Gear Planner, since 50 hit can be used instead of only 20. You could also equip a new piece of gear which puts you over the cap, and run the calculation and check the gear planner for currently equipped pieces that have extra hit that is wasted, pushing them lower on the lists.

While this is true, I just feel that it is less elegant than having an option that affects only the Gear Planner. I find it convenient to be able to look at my Gear screen and say "okay, it looks like I'm sitting at 100.03% to hit. Great." And not having to think "Okay it says I'm at 98.45% hit, but that manual adjustment accounts for X% of that and..."

Additionally, after actually trying it for myself, it seems to affect the weightings of other stats (even relative to each other, not just relative to Hit). Some of the amounts were fairly trivial, but some were as high as a 5 percentage point change from their previous relative values (compared to AP).

Cranch · 06/18/09, 7:13 PM

Shandara, would it be possible for the in-game character tab line (in the Gear tab) to also include displayed (buffed) AP and crit %?

Xeno · 06/18/09, 8:01 PM

89g 6/17/2009: When selecting blood fury in the shot rotation tab an error under calculations:B10 returns a dividing by 0 error. This translates through all attack power values.

Ufthak · 06/19/09, 5:25 AM

I have had that for a few versions and pushing F9 to force the sheet to calculate the cells fixed it for me.

Shandara · 06/19/09, 5:33 AM

Originally Posted by Xeno

89g 6/17/2009: When selecting blood fury in the shot rotation tab an error under calculations:B10 returns a dividing by 0 error. This translates through all attack power values.

Thanks, I'll fix this. In the meantime, hit the "Rotation Test" button to make it actually calculate the frequency of Blood Fury in the rotation test.

Midnight · 06/19/09, 6:28 AM

As far as I understand it the "Max time to wait for CDs" value applies to all shots with cooldowns. Now I think it´s save to assume that waiting for ES to come off CD at the expense of an Steady or even Multi-Shot is diffrent from waiting for Multi-Shot delaying a Steady Shot.
You mentioned a "quick and dirty calculation to see whether waiting is actually worth it damage wise.". Does that mean that the setting value is just the upper limit for waiting while there´s some spreadsheet logic trys to "guess" if waiting that long is actually worth it? If so I´d be very interested in understanding the details as this is something I´ve been pondering over for quite some time.

Also concerning the wait delay, it´d be nice if it was saved with the profile (propably as part of the rotation).

Shandara · 06/19/09, 7:30 AM

Originally Posted by Midnight

As far as I understand it the "Max time to wait for CDs" value applies to all shots with cooldowns. Now I think it´s save to assume that waiting for ES to come off CD at the expense of an Steady or even Multi-Shot is diffrent from waiting for Multi-Shot delaying a Steady Shot.
You mentioned a "quick and dirty calculation to see whether waiting is actually worth it damage wise.". Does that mean that the setting value is just the upper limit for waiting while there´s some spreadsheet logic trys to "guess" if waiting that long is actually worth it? If so I´d be very interested in understanding the details as this is something I´ve been pondering over for quite some time.

Also concerning the wait delay, it´d be nice if it was saved with the profile (propably as part of the rotation).

The setting on the rotation test is indeed the upper limit to what the sheet will wait for _any_ shot.

I still have to refine the 'quick&dirty' check a bit.

It is a bit of a logic exercise, I guess. Assume 200 ms latency, no haste gear/buffs. Each Steady Shot takes 1,74 seconds (thanks to quiver haste) to cast, so 1,94s to complete with 200ms latency.

Say you wait 0,42s for your next Explosive Shot
[ES][SS][SS] {... 0,42s..} [Explosive Shot][Steady Shot][etc..]

How much damage done is gained over
[ES][SS][SS][Steady Shot][Explosive Shot][SS] [etc..]

Midnight · 06/19/09, 9:25 AM

Originally Posted by Shandara

The setting on the rotation test is indeed the upper limit to what the sheet will wait for _any_ shot.

I still have to refine the 'quick&dirty' check a bit.

It is a bit of a logic exercise, I guess. Assume 200 ms latency, no haste gear/buffs. Each Steady Shot takes 1,74 seconds (thanks to quiver haste) to cast, so 1,94s to complete with 200ms latency.

Say you wait 0,42s for your next Explosive Shot
[ES][SS][SS] {... 0,42s..} [Explosive Shot][Steady Shot][etc..]

How much damage done is gained over
[ES][SS][SS][Steady Shot][Explosive Shot][SS] [etc..]

Looks a little bit like the formula I´ve already read here at the board. However as far as I understand it that forumla can only work on simimlar repeating cycles which won´t really be the case with some more CDs thrown into the mix especially concerning cooldowns that don´t align well with others.

GhostRoc · 06/22/09, 2:04 PM

Hi all,

I can't open the 87g version after I download it.

The error message I'm getting is "Hunter_DPS.xl cannot be accessed. The file may be corrupted, located on a server that's not responding, or read-only.

Any advice? I was opening the previous version fine.

Thanks!

Iroared · 06/22/09, 7:09 PM

Originally Posted by Midnight

Looks a little bit like the formula I´ve already read here at the board. However as far as I understand it that forumla can only work on simimlar repeating cycles which won´t really be the case with some more CDs thrown into the mix especially concerning cooldowns that don´t align well with others.

Wouldn't it be possible to modify the rotation test to automatically decide whether waiting for a cooldown is better than using steady shot?
It could be something like this: if explosive shot comes off CD in 1 second, and steady shot takes 1.5 seconds to cast, then we compare the damage done by steady shot to average DPS without autoshot * 0.5 (because we effectively delay all further shots by 0.5 seconds). That is assuming there are no other cooldowns, but I believe it wouldn't be too hard to make a more general algorithm.

Kathucka · 06/22/09, 8:48 PM

Originally Posted by VRoscioli

I feel that the spreadsheet should have another option, such as Ignore Hit Cap. Setting this option would allow the gear planner to fully value all of the hit rating on an item, regardless of how close or far you are from hit cap.

I'm with you. This would be a simple way to make the gear planner estimate the effects of re-gemming around the hit cap that always happens.

As it stands, the gear planner, regardless of which hit rating setting you use, will often fail completely on items with hit rating. It shows an item as a downgrade, when, with appropriate re-gemming and re-enchanting, it is actually a substantial upgrade. This makes it useless for its intended purpose.

If you have time to put in the work, an even more accurate technique would be to add two more options: "Translate Hit Rating and Agility" and "Translate Hit Rating and Attack Power". This would simulate the re-gemming that players always do.

These options calculate the hit rating difference between the equipped item and the new item, and subtract it from the current hit rating to get the un-adjusted total hit rating with the new item equipped. If this is over the cap, any excess hit rating on the item is removed and translated to agility (or attack power) on the item. If it's under the cap, the missing hit rating is added in and made up by subtracting agility (or attack power) from the item. The adjusted stats on the new item are used to perform its DPS calculation.

These options only work when the current hit rating is right around the cap. The other options are still required when well over or under the cap.

For now, though, the only way to accurately determine if an item is an upgrade is to save your current profile with your current gear and spec, create a new (experimental) profile, load in the new item, fiddle with the gems and enchants on the new profile, and then save the new profile. You can then compare two profiles on the overview page to see which has the bigger numbers. And no, you do not want to do that right after an item drops.