WotLK DPS spreadsheet - Page 197

Rivkah · 06/29/09, 4:43 PM

Originally Posted by VRoscioli

I agree that (1) KC mana should be included in our expended mana and (2) we should have the option to turn it off, as not using it could provide a DPS increase if AotV must be used.

I added in the mana cost for KC in my web version of the spreadsheet (should be ready for public beta in a few days). I ran a dps check with it on and off in my standard gear and raid buffs, with judgement of wisdom turned off (since with it on I don't run out of mana). I found that there was about a 1dps gain from having KC turned off in that particular situation. Obviously it's going to vary based on many factors, but for survival at least it doesn't seem to play a very significant dps role one way or the other.

Domo · 06/30/09, 4:35 AM

I notice that for marksman shot priority "Arcane Shot" is actually decreasing 100 or so DPS on the latest spreadsheet. Can someone please enlighten me, if arcane shot is still neccessary or I can simply ignore it according to the latest spreadsheet's shot rotation test?

Rezdan · 06/30/09, 5:05 AM

I've explained how Arcane Shot may end up being a DPS decrease for certain MM specs with ArP focused gear in the Marksmen thread.

Shandara · 06/30/09, 8:19 AM

Update:

- Limited effect of ArP procs to to amount that can actually be used
- Mixology affects ArP Elixir now
- Sonic Blast now costs 80 focus
- Hunting Party now regenerates 0,2% mana per second (1% total mana over 5 seconds).
- Catlike Reflexes now reduces Kill Command Cooldown by 10/20/30 seconds.
- Lock & Load now has a 22 second internal cooldown
- Nitro Boosts feet enchant now is +12 hit/crit, Hyperspeed Accelerators lasts 12 seconds and Hand-mounted Pyro Rocket deals 1654-2020 damage, Flexweave Underlay is 23 agility.
- Inscription shoulder enchant now is +120 AP/+15 Crit
- Fur Lining - Attack Power now 130 AP, Fur Lining - Stamina now 102 stamina.
- Mining Skill benefit now 60 stamina at highest rank
- Skinning benefit now 40 crit rating
- Swordguard embroidery +400 AP (up from +300)
- Enchant Ring - Assault now +40 AP
- Troll Berserking is now +20% haste for 10 seconds (2min CD)
- Tier9 2-piece bonus implemented (Serpent Sting can crit). Assumptions: Talents/Meta affect it and it has a 100% base critical damage bonus. THIS NEEDS TO BE TESTED.
- Tier9 4-piece bonus implemented (chance on all hits to proc +600 AP for pet for 15 seconds, assumed 10 or 15% chance, 45 sec ICD for now). ALSO NEEDS TESTING
- Tier8 2-set bonus now additive instead of multiplicative
- Gear Planner now considers any +hit over the cap and determines how much of it can be re-gemmed for Agility/AP/Crit. Option on Settings tab to select what to replace excess +hit with.
- Added tier9 sets. 232 assumed to be 10-man, 245 25-man/10-man Heroic, 258 25-man Heroic
- Added new JC gems

Previous version may be downloaded from the link on the first page of this thread.

Some caveats:
Tier9 bonuses are just assumptions so far since we can not test it yet. The Gear Planner now converts any excess +hit on items to either agility, AP or crit (selected on Settings tab) to a maximum of what you have gemmed (not counting gems in the item that is being replaced).

This is a bit beta-quality since I made a lot of changes to the gear planner to facilitate this. Let me know if it works as I imagined.

EDIT:
I meant tier9 yes, thanks.

KraxisSingular · 06/30/09, 8:37 AM

-issue fixed

• VRoscioli · 06/30/09, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Shandara

The Gear Planner now converts any excess +hit on items to either agility, AP or crit (selected on Settings tab) to a maximum of what you have gemmed (not counting gems in the item that is being replaced).

/cheer!

I still question why we should necessarily limit this to the amount that we have gemmed, as we can still replace things like hit enchants, Focused Aimed, etc to get DPS gain from excess hit. But this is definitely a step in the right direction.

Iru · 06/30/09, 11:58 AM

While it would be nice to have, extending as you suggest is likely to be major surgery from a SS perspective. Gems are already dealt with differently to support the use of preferred gemming of new gear in the gear planner. Extending that to enchants, or worse talents, would be a massive undertaking.

Kathucka · 06/30/09, 12:50 PM

About hit rating translation.....

While a full extension of the hit rating translation might be pretty complex, considering the glove enchant might be worthwhile. It's a straight trade-off of either 44 AP, 20 AGI, or 20 HR. So, if you go over the hit cap by too much and the hit rating glove enchant is present, the planner could translate to 20 AGI or 44AP.

After that, it gets a lot more complex, with with things like the icewalker boot enchant and the precision weapon enchants, which combine multiple stats. It's do-able, but it gets ugly fast.

For now, though, I'm seeing much more accurate comparisons. This is a great improvement. Thank you.

Re-iterating my earlier example, the gear planner now shows the [Surge Needle Ring] as a 21.5 DPS upgrade over the [Ring of Invincibility]. Manually swapping them and re-gemming shows an 18.0 DPS upgrade. So, it's off by only 3, instead of 22, and correctly showing an upgrade as an upgrade. Much better.

On the other hand, since I'm so far over the hit cap with that ring, I can (manually) swap out my Icewalker for Superior agility, and get a total DPS increase of 31, leaving it off by 9.5. So, that's how much you stand to gain by getting into the messy business of swapping enchants.

• VRoscioli · 06/30/09, 1:04 PM

Originally Posted by Kathucka

About hit rating translation.....

While a full extension of the hit rating translation might be pretty complex, considering the glove enchant might be worthwhile. It's a straight trade-off of either 44 AP, 20 AGI, or 20 HR. So, if you go over the hit cap by too much and the hit rating glove enchant is present, the planner could translate to 20 AGI or 44AP.

After that, it gets a lot more complex, with with things like the icewalker boot enchant and the precision weapon enchants, which combine multiple stats. It's do-able, but it gets ugly fast.

For now, though, I'm seeing much more accurate comparisons. This is a great improvement. Thank you.

I agree that the situation would get quite complicated if we were to start trying to decide exactly how much bang we can get for the leftover hit rating. This is especially true if we start trying to consider the ramifications of being able to change a point in Focused Aim out for something else.

Because of this, I can still see the usefulness of counting all excess hit as Agility (or whatever stat), and assuming that we can find something to replace to increase our DPS by about that value. (e.g. maybe I don't actually have any +hit gems, but a piece with +30 hit rating allows me to move a point in Focused Aim to something else, increasing DPS by about as much as +30 agi would -- I'm not saying that it is possible to find such DPS-gaining swaps in every case, but I'd imagine that humans are a bit more wily than the spreadsheet, and will find some way to benefit from the "excess" hit, so why not just assume that we'll get some use out of all of it?)

Rivkah · 06/30/09, 1:22 PM

It looks like this latest PTR version added in support for the pet expertise inheriting from hit. I did some tests and it seemed to be working although I'm not sure of the scaling, but for now probably an estimated 3.25 expertise per 1% hit is probably a reasonable figure to work with if you want to include it in the spreadsheet.

My tests weren't very long but they indicated it's possible that they may have also fixed the pet hit rounding down issue that currently exists- I'll try to find some time to run tests for a longer period to see if it's really changed.

Kathucka · 06/30/09, 1:44 PM

Originally Posted by VRoscioli

I'd imagine that humans are a bit more wily than the spreadsheet, and will find some way to benefit from the "excess" hit, so why not just assume that we'll get some use out of all of it?)

Because we won't, always.

First of all, if you're way over the hit cap, with no hit enchants or gems left to swap out, nothing you do will help, short of swapping in different pieces of gear.

Second of all, the enchants are not all created equal. For instance, on boots, you can get +12Crit/+12Hit, +16AGI, or +32AP. The first one gives you 24 item points, but only 12 of them are for hit. The second two give you 16 item points, each in a single stat.

There's a similar situation for weapons, where you have a choice between +25Hit/+25Crit or 110 AP. Then, consider that you can dual-wield. Even messier.

It might be useful to ignore the hit cap as an option when you're considering swapping a lot of gear around, but having the option to consider it is important.

• VRoscioli · 06/30/09, 1:59 PM

Originally Posted by Kathucka

Because we won't, always.

First of all, if you're way over the hit cap, with no hit enchants or gems, nothing you do will help.

Second of all, the enchants are not all created equal. For instance, on boots, you can get +12Crit/+12Hit, +16AGI, or +32AP. The first one gives you 24 item points, but only 12 of them are for hit. The second two give you 16 item points, each in a single stat.

There's a similar situation for weapons, where you have a choice between +25Hit/+25Crit or 110 AP. Then, consider that you can dual-wield. Even messier.

It might be useful to ignore the hit cap as an option when you're considering swapping a lot of gear around, but having the option to consider it is important.

I agree that there are situations where you truly could have nothing to do with extra hit. But I do feel like these situations are likely rare, and think that we should at least have the option, as you said, to ignore the hit cap. I agree that maybe it should not be a default behavior, as it does produce consequences, like requiring the user to understand that he'll need to be able to do something with the extra hit. But I think the option should be there for the users that do understand the ramifications of this.

• VRoscioli · 06/30/09, 2:01 PM

Originally Posted by Rivkah

My tests weren't very long but they indicated it's possible that they may have also fixed the pet hit rounding down issue that currently exists- I'll try to find some time to run tests for a longer period to see if it's really changed.

This would have some very interesting consequences, most notably causing the last couple of points of hit rating to not be worth as much as they are now.

TrevvyTrev · 06/30/09, 6:31 PM

Originally Posted by VRoscioli

I agree that there are situations where you truly could have nothing to do with extra hit. But I do feel like these situations are likely rare, and think that we should at least have the option, as you said, to ignore the hit cap. I agree that maybe it should not be a default behavior, as it does produce consequences, like requiring the user to understand that he'll need to be able to do something with the extra hit. But I think the option should be there for the users that do understand the ramifications of this.

I'm not sure it's that rare. If you have hit rating that comes in sizeable chunks, then this situation will occur. For example, I'm hit capped without using any talents, gems or enchants. I have a huge chunk of hit (+83) coming from the trinket slot. I also have 40 here, 39 there, etc. As a result I have 10 slots with no hit on them. Neck, shoulders, back, Main hand, Ranged, one trinket, both rings, legs and gloves.

Upgrading any of these slots with hit results in wasted hit, with nothing to do about it except change out entire slots, which goes beyond the spreadsheet's prediction capabilities. It wouldn't make any sense for the spreadsheet to assume I could do something with the extra hit.

Zeuxis · 06/30/09, 10:40 PM

Originally Posted by Rivkah

It looks like this latest PTR version added in support for the pet expertise inheriting from hit. I did some tests and it seemed to be working although I'm not sure of the scaling, but for now probably an estimated 3.25 expertise per 1% hit is probably a reasonable figure to work with if you want to include it in the spreadsheet.

My tests weren't very long but they indicated it's possible that they may have also fixed the pet hit rounding down issue that currently exists- I'll try to find some time to run tests for a longer period to see if it's really changed.

Rivkah: good to hear. Did you notice if heroic presence is translating as pet expertise? If it's not, Alliance hunters might see a return to the bad old days of trying to calculate the value of hit beyond our personal cap- something we'd certainly rely on the sheet to help us with.