Shandara

Cheers, this would explain why Chimera seemed so awesome

 

Cheeky

I found the best way to handle this kind of error was to name as many cells as possible. This way it becomes quickly visible when you are referencing the wrong ones. And count me among those happy you're going through all this effort!

Cheeky of Havoc

 

Kindinos

I was thinking of starting work on a Web-based spreadsheet type app (PHP and MySQL) for WotLK. Unfortunately, I don't have a beta key, and have no idea how to start, given that I haven't looked into the formulas and models used to calculate DPS.

As a web developer, I would be willing to work with you to translate the excel formulas and functions into a PHP program that uses a MySQL database to store data on items, gems, enchants, etc. Also, it would be possible to save a hunter's configuration and "send" it to another person for looking at, comparing, etc. Could also make a sort of leaderboard to see who has the highest theoretical DPS.

 

brigwyn

Since Wertez and Indora took over with Cheeky's blessing, much of this may have already been incorporated.

Would it be possible we work together instead of having multiple flavors out there? Not saying it has to be held at The Hunting Lodge, here's fine, I just hate for the hunter community to get in an uproar over what is the "Official" Hunter DPS Spreadsheet.

Feel free to look at what we've been doing since Cheeky and Lactose retired.

(Hunter DPS Spreadsheet Forum)
(Hunter DPS Spreadsheet Download)


Like I said duplicate efforts and confusion might be a problem. But either way. Good luck!!

Kindinos.. did you receive your account info for hosting it at the Lodge?

 

Chul

I definately think Feeding Frenzy needs to be averaged over the fight rather than a snapshot in time. It's currently either a +40% or +0% dmg increase depending on what I select as the boss health.

Hopefully I can explain what I mean about Kill Shot a little better

Kill Shot doesn't beat most other shots, so it will have a low priority. In fact, it may never be cast at all since all the GCDs will be used by higher priority shots.

However, once the boss is < 20% health, Kill Shot is generally more damage and therefore it should be moved up higher in priority. How high the priority depends on talents and buffs. Currently the spreadsheet doesn't allow that. So what I was suggesting is to split the shot rotation in two (one for >20%, one for <20%) so we can change our rotation at that point and work out a new optimal shot rotation. The total damage would be averaged over the time spent in each % section.

 

Kindinos

Yes, I have the information. I will be uploading what I currently have, which is basically, just some of the page layout. Im trying to keep the same Tab style interface, that Cheeky used in his, as to avoid as much of the "newness" as possible.

Furthermore, we will need to coordinate on a single forum (either here or the Lodge), to prevent confusion.

As for the development/maintenance, one of the big advantages to using a PHP-MySQL system is that we (I) can create a simple, easy to use interface that allows anyone (with admin access) to add/modify items, gems, etc. As for changing core mechanics, formulas and models, Im almost certain there's someone else out there in the hunter theorycrafting community who would know php/mysql.

 

brigwyn

That's good. Just making sure since I haven't seen you on since then.

As for the site to develop on? My personal preference would be to keep it at the Lodge since that's where Wertez and Indora are working on the Excel version of the spreadsheet. Also you could use the Lodge's Vent, IrC and Developer forum. But it's up to you guys. (besides, I keep getting myself in trouble here so not sure how much longer I'll have posting priviledges.

As for the php/mysql expertise. I'm sure you can find it here or there. I can do some things myself and I know others on the site and in the nether also can code.

But Like I said before. Let's get to an agreement and work together on this. I agree with you, it doesn't make sense to add to the confusion out there. Let me know.

 

Kindinos

OK, so I've got the basic mockup done. It basically has the tabs laid out, and a few of the tabs have some form elements (text and check boxes) which don't do anything for the moment. Before we go ahead and start cranking out the math for it, I think we should talk a little bit about the UI.

The main thing we need to preserve (in my opinion) is the tabbed layout, which everyone is used to from Cheeky's. Secondly, with all the different options, it will have to be intuitive. Thus, I am thinking about making some sort of system of popups that lets users pick items, fill them with gems, enchants, etc. Coming as close to the ingame interface as possible.

The URL is

HuntarDPS :: Welcome!

let me know what you all think about it, ways to streamline it, etc. If Shandara has no objections, we ought to form a "team" to collaborate on it. I think a little extra work right now, could save us a lot of work in the future.

Also, the title is not a typo. In the mockup, i couldn't figure out a title, so I played around with the words a bit, and came up with "HuntarDPS" Let me know if you think that title is too silly or "leetspeek-ish"

Edit: The login and registration forms on the first page are dead forms. Just click "login" and it will redirect you to the main part of the site.

 

Shandara

Edit: merged with next post, please delete.

 

Shandara

@Kindinos:
I wouldn't mind turning the sheet into an online application. The math behind it is mostly straightforward and not really computationally heavy. The only downside to an online application is.. when it's down it's down.

@Brigwyn:
I had in fact seen your post that Wertez was picking it up, but at the time I didn't see any substantial work done on the sheet, apart from adding some obsolete gear and doing small fixes. Since the sheet is locked (even for viewing) I can't see what sort of WotLK has been done.
I'm not really interested in who has St. Cheeky's and Don Lactose's blessing, but welcome any and all help. Like Cheeky I mostly do this as a tool for myself, rather than specifically for the grand public

My point was that it's already possible to see with 1 button push what your dps is in the different Boss%. You can set the fight length yourself and the different times spent in the phases and then it'll calculate the dps for each.

I prefer this way to hardcoding the different phase lengths into the sheet and averaging out the effects of Feeding Frenzy and Kill Shot, the same way I haven't implemented Heroism/Bloodlust, since those are so fight-specific.

The Shot rotation tab uses the settings 'Boss HP%' and 'Use Kill Shot' to determine when to use Kill Shot already. To mimic real-world behavior set Use Kill Shot to Sub-20%, put it in your rotation and hit the 'Calculate Average DPS' button.

On that vein, maybe I should change the name of the 'Shot Rotation' tab since what the spreadsheet does is NOT modelling a shot rotation. It merely computes the frequency of use of your shots, given the priority you have set.

If you set it to:

Explosive Shot
Kill Shot
Multi-Shot
Arcane Shot
Steady Shot

With 'Use Kill Shot' set at 'Sub-20%' then you'll notice that for 'Boss HP%' at '35%' and '25%' Kill shot has a frequency of 0, which means it's not used at all, despite being in the rotation. Once you set the % to '15%' it'll be used and subsequently leave no room for Steady Shots and in fact eat up a few of your Arcane Shots as well.

The 'Calculate Average DPS' button checks your actual dps at 15/25/35% HP and the sheet automatically adjusts whether kill shot is used or not. Same for pet talents like Feeding Frenzy. It then averages out those 3 dps values based on the fight length/phase length you specified.

I standard set it to a 10 minute fight, 7mins spent going from 100%-30%, 1min from 30%-20%, 2mins from 20%-0%. Not quite realistic since most fights are over _faster_ once you hit sub-20% thanks to Bloodlust/Executes/Mages/etc..

It doesn't actually use the fight length, just the relative % of time spent at each phase. To reiterate, you don't need to fiddle with the Boss HP% setting if you just want to see your average dps over the total fight, just hit the button.

 

brigwyn

Kindinos -
Since you've made this over at the lodge I'm gonna close this discussion and bring it over to those forums. No need to have multiple conversations going on.

- Shandara
I've answered your post on the other forum. But as you said, there's not worried about which is "blessed" or not. What I"m more concerned with is that we work together in creating the best tool posible for the hunter class.

I appreciate your candor and effort thus far!

 

Shandara

Small update again:
Recalculating attributes should be much faster now.

With the un-linking of auto-shot there's (practically) no haste cap any more I assume. Haste also has deprecated in value because it basically only affects autoshot after a certain amount (once you get Steady Shot below the GCD).

Is there a maximum speed at which auto-shot can fire? I believe there was a minimum, but can't remember the source of that thought.

 

Ravenfire

Brigwyn,

Is there a WotLK spread sheet available for download at The Hunting Lodge? I've been looking and looking and while I've seen many a post regarding a WotLK spread sheet I haven't seen a single link for a download for it.

Edit: I believe that TBC version of the sheet has AS capped at 0.5 seconds with the reasoning being that haste doesn't effect the cast time of Auto Shot (whether true or not is debatable and I could do an experiment to test it), but with the unlinking of AS and it now being truely "instant" I'd say it no longer has any max cap.

 

Indora

I see a weakness of the priority system here.
A simple example with Arcane Shot > Steady Shot priority:

- Shot Rotation
0.0 arcane (0,16 frequency)
1.5 steady (0,5 frequncy)
3.0 steady
4.5 steady
6.0 arcane

- Priority system
25% arcane shot (0,16 frequency)
75% Steady Shot (0,5 frequency)

Each results the same frequencys.
But with 5/5 Improved Arcane Shot:

- Shot Rotation
0.0 arcane (0.2 frequency)
1.5 steady (0.4 frequency)
3.0 steady
4.5-5.0 wasted time
5.0 arcane

A priority system ignores the wasted time:
30% arcane shot (0.2 frequency)
70% (0.466 frequency)

Maybe using rotations for wotlk, too, is a good idea.



Another thing:
Assuming the gcd is 1.5 seconds doesn't represent the (virtual) reality.
Even when spamming a button, it takes you 50-150ms (on average) to click it.
Let's say you spam your button 10 times per seconds (fast!):
Your average gcd will be 1.55 seconds (1.5 + 1 / 10 / 2).
The 100ms are halfed, because sometimes you click just after the gcd ends, but sometimes you'll click the whole 100ms later - on average it's 50ms per gcd.

I suggest adding a cell named 'Clicks per Second'

 

brigwyn

I know that the one at the Lodge has a Haste cell to help change the AS cap (I believe anyways.. Indora or Wertez are better suited to answer the details. But I believe The Hunter DPS Sheet that's at the Lodge has the WoTLK info in it.

As Wertez has pointed out, most of the actual "development" effort is in preparing for the expansion. And as for the existing BC items, it's mostly bug fixes or missing gear, etc... I've posted the links to the discussion forum and download sites before and am afraid of receiving the wrath of the mods if I do so again. :P But if you do need more info feel free to drop me a line at the lodge or by email: brigwyn@brigwyn.com.

 

Shandara

You make a good point, but nothing that can't be dealt with.

Basically, an ability's cooldown has to be a multiple of the GCD + latency (both server-client and human reaction speed combined) to be 'exact'. Most of our abilities have a 6 second cooldown, which fits exactly with the 1.5 second cooldown. Unfortunately, most people don't play with 0 lag and inhuman reactions, even with the spell-queue that's in-game.

To solve the 'wasted' time problem, we just increase the 'perceived cooldown' to the correct amount and use that. This has the added bonus of (again) making improved Arcane Shot almost useless as it's supposed to be for raiding.

Although..

Imagine a 0,2 second latency/reaction penalty and a 5/5 improved Arcane shot:

0.0 Arcane
1.7 Steady
3,4 Steady
5,0 Arcane ready
5,1 Arcane fires

Wasted time only 0,1 second, same for 4/5 Improved Arcane Shot (but Arcane would fire at 5,2 then; instead wasting time after the GCD+latency is done instead of wasting CD time).

 

Indora

This is not true. Autoshot casttime is affected by haste.
It's very easy to test!

As we all know, Quartz can show the delay between the client & the server.
What Quartz does, is to count the seconds that elapse from the moment you click the steady shot button until the moment the cast starts.

Now all you have to do is to start an steadyshot with the following macro (we all know this one):
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot

You'll shoot an Auto Shot, instantly followed by the steady cast.
Because of the way the Auto Shot mechanics were changed in 2.3, the gcd will start instantly, while the steady cast will wait until the auto cast is completed. Thus, the time that elapse from the moment you click/the gcd starts until the steady cast begins is: Latency + Auto Shot Casttime.

Multiply test in our german wow-forums confirm: Auto Shot Casttime is reduced by haste.
In example, with no additional haste and BM specc, you're auto shot casttime is 0.5s / 1.15 / 1.2 = 362ms

edit:
The GCD is not affected by latency!
However, casts are.

Note: With a Steadycasttime of 1.5 Seconds and 0.2s lag, you can still shoot 1 steady per 1.5 seconds.

 

Ravenfire

I downloaded that sheet yesterday and looked around in it. At this time it does not contain ANY WotLK info/talents/skills that are visible to someone without mod privilages. As such, it is useless for me to log onto the beta and try and varify/improve any equations/questions regarding that particular sheet. Why the current mods decided to hide all WotLK related tabs is beyond me as I do know Cheeky himself had some wotlk tabs in his last revision and they were easily viewable along with Cheeky's initial wrath calculations. If I need to get modifier rights to even view the tabs I guess I need to know how to go about doing such. Personally I would MUCH perfer if Wertez would have two versions available for down load; A TBC version, kept as up to date and accurate as possible until the release of WotLK, and a WotLK version that is, like wise, kept as up to date to the beta as possible. Until I can see what Wertez's calculations are I'll help Shandara with his sheet and hope any mistakes/calculations/models that I can prove/disprove/improve also are found/fixed/changed in Wertez's work.

P.S. If you know how I can get mod rights so I can view the WotLK tabs in the spread sheet shoot me a PM via these forums.

Shandara wanted to know where he was getting the idea that AS was capped. I was mearly stating that Cheeky's Sheet version 52 ALWAYS had AS as a 0.5 second cast no matter how much haste you had and was suggesting that while I had known of no proof if haste effected AS cast time, I could test for it and that either way I thought it was a moot point due to the AS changes in WotLK.

By and by though I AM glad to see proof that AS is indeed effected by haste in Live TBC wow. Perhaps Wertez can figure out a way to incorperate that knowledge into the sheet.

 

Shandara

Maybe I am confused about what you mean.

You claim there's a 'spamming delay' which increases the GCD.

I agree on that. While you the GCD has not recovered your commands don't go through yet, but once it IS finished your next command will
a) Come late because of human reaction time even with spamming (i.e. spamming delay)
b) will have to reach the server (i.e. latency)

This is what you meant, no?

Doesn't it mean that even if you spam steady shot it will only fire every (1,5 + spamming delay + client-server latency) seconds?

 

Cheeky

I believe the same cast-queue system that allowed Mages/Warlocks to ignore latency should be in play for Hunters. It's easy enough to test that on Beta. If it is there, there is no need to model latency/lag/spamspeed or anything like that. (Man, they are eliminating all the crap that made writing the original spreadsheet such a pain in the ass. I picked a lousy time to retire. )

Cheeky of Havoc

 

Chul

One suggestion would be to add how much self healing a pet will be doing during a fight (i.e. with Improved Leader of the Pack and Loyalty).

 

brigwyn

I think you might be right on that point that the cast-queue system is in play. But not entirely sure abou that. But I think this is purely in the Beta and not the existing BC so I can't test it. I'll ask at the Lodge to see if anyone there can test it and report the findings.

As for he modeling latency/lag/spam speed.. Even with the cast-queue system wouldn't this still be someone it play? There might be a ton of shots that either clip or just don't get fired if the mob dies or goes los during the fight. not sure just a thought.

As for your retiring.. your right. that was a big mistake .but i'm sure you'd be welcomed back with open arms. ;P

 

Shandara

If someone in beta could test this then..?

I thought the cast-queue system affected spells with a cast time, so you could send the command to cast a spell slightly before the previous cast was done.

What I want to know is how much (if anything) latency adds after the GCD before a new instant or fast cast (like steady shot with enough haste) gets through.

It's easy enough to test on live, hit rapid fire and disable any UI error message addons. During steady shot cast you will get 'Another spell is casting' spammed in the combat log. After it has finished but before the GCD is done you will 'Not yet recovered', same as trying to start a steady shot right after an instant like Arcane Shot.

In short I want to know 2 things on beta:
a) The minimum time between 2 instants
b) The minimum time between steady shots

 

Indora

Here's an example with 200ms Latency, 50ms avg. SpamSpeed & 1.4 Seconds Steadycast:

0.0 click. The gcd starts.
0.2 steady cast starts
1.5 gcd ends
1.55 click2. The gcd starts, although the previous steady is still casting!
1.6 steady completed
1.75 Second steady starts

At the moment it's like that: (and I'm pretty sure it's the same in beta)
a) 1.5 seconds. Assuming inhuman SpamSpeed.
b) 1.5 seconds / casttime if it's >1.5 seconds. Assuming inhuman SpamSpeed and < ~500ms Latency.

edit:

You misunderstand point b. There is a delay until the information reaches the server, however, the gcd is controlled client-side and starts instantly, even if the client hasn't recieved the 'ok' message from the server.
(--> Spamming Steady Shot will result in 1,5 + Spamming Delay Seconds per Shot)

SpamSpeed is important, as it lengthens the gcd and thus reduces your Specials per Second.
Lag can be ignored, as long as it isn't extremely high. This is because you can't start the next gcd if a cast has more than ~500ms left (I don't know the exact value).

Another example with 200ms latency, 50ms SpamSpeed & 1.7 Seconds Steadycast:

0.0 click, gcd 1 start
0.2 Steadycast 1 start
1.5 gcd 1 end
1.55 click 2, gcd 2 start
1.75 steady 2 wants to start, but has to wait until the previous cast is over.
1.9 steadycast 1 end
1.9 steadycast 2 start (No delay! Neither because of lag, nor of SpamSpeed or anything else)
3.05 gcd 2 end
3.1 click, gcd 3 start
3.6 steadycast 2 end
3.6 steadycast 3 start
4.6 gcd 3 end
4.65 click, gcd 4 not starting yet, as there are more than 500ms left on previous cast
4.7 click, gcd still can't be started
4.75 click, gcd still can't be started
4.8 another click, <= 500 ms left, gcd 4 start
5.3 steadycast 3 end
5.3 steadycast 4 starts
6.3 gcd 4 end
6.35 click, gcd 5 can't start yet
6.4 click, gcd 5 can't start yet
6.45 click, gcd 5 can't start yet
6.5 click, <= 500ms until end of previous cast left, gcd 5 start
7.0 steadycast 4 ends
7.0 steadycast 5 start
....

The first 2-3 gcds look like you can still shoot with an 1.55 frequence, although the casttime is 1.7 seconds, what is somehow confusing. But once the 500ms buffer time is completely used, you're shooting one steady every 1.7 seconds. The 'saved' time from the beginning results in 500ms wasted time after the last gcd.

Maybe you can better understand this when I try to 'draw' it for you:
Fortunately there's a way to exploit this effect:
Having a > 1.5 seconds Steady casttime doesn't mean you have to shoot less than 1 Special every 1.5 Seconds.
All you have to do is to rotate steadys with instants.

This way, the casting time reaches into the next gcd, without delaying it. But as it isn't possible to buffer more than 500ms, you can't shoot more than one (or maybe two) steadys in a chain. Shooting a shot with <1 second casttime allows you to start using the buffer time again.



Even in german, it's difficult for me to explain these things, I hope you understand everything. :|

 

Shandara

Thanks for the clarification. It should basically mean latency is irrelevant if it's small enough not to eat up your spell-queue buffer.

The 500ms buffer you talk of is the spell-queue and indeed I believe it's around that size.

Unfortunately, the way the long cooldowns work it's not always possible to alternate steadies and instants. I'll have to think about it a bit and see if I can find a way to represent it without going back to a shot rotation (although implementing a shot rotation like Cheeky's is now much easier when we don't have keep track of the auto-shot timer.

Edit:
As an aside, the current model I have basically assumes you click right as the spell ends and not in the spell-queue, thus giving every shot +latency.