WotLK DPS spreadsheet - Page 21

Shandara · 11/05/08, 7:26 PM

Originally Posted by Osse

I don't know how the spreadsheet calculates damage under aspect of the viper but with MM spec serpent stings damage will keep ticking for full damage even if you refresh the sting with chimera shot. Also, if you pop blood fury and AP trinket before putting a sting up it will keep ticking for that damage even after you refresh the sting with chimera shot.

The first is a case the sheet doesn't consider at the moment. But it should be easy enough to add an exception for MM builds.

The second is a bit harder because the sheet averages out trinket effects (and Blood Fury) and it's not possible to put the +AP effect at a specific time or trigger it for specific shots.

KraxisSingular · 11/05/08, 8:08 PM

Originally Posted by Sienna

Well it's not that. Assume your hit is 100. When you crit, without the gem, you crit for 230. So if the gem was really giving you 3% more critical damage, then you'd just multiply 230 with 1.03 and be done with it. But the gem doesn't work that way. It's just bugged, and 1.03 is being added before mortal shots.

I don't see the difference really. You assume the talent and gem bonus are applied equally, or the gem after the talent. But it doesn't work like that. Talents have an interesting tendecy to be applied after various gear bonusses, like that of the relics or glyphs. Heck even our own BW glyph is applied ahead of talents (64 second CD vs 70 secind CD).
That means the gem is always taken into account as a natural part before the talents are applied.

The damagebonus the talent then has to increase is the 106 of the 206. And that gives the 137.8 critbonus.
It might be somewhat convoluted, but it is only a matter of priority of application, and talents do come last.

That makes me wonder though... Beast-Tamers Shoulders. The bonus they apply should be applied ahead of the talentbonusses from Beast Mastery, the tree, or the pet talent tree. So in effect we have a rather more powerful bonus in it since the 2% damage is applied to the 100 rather than the added effect of the talents (149?). In effect that should mean with Spiked Collar and both Unleashed Fury and Kindred Spirits a BM pet should not hit for 151 but 151.98. That makes them almost a full percent better, and combined with the other talents and bonusses, it should amount to a total bonus that is quite a bit better.

• Tsook · 11/05/08, 9:45 PM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

That makes me wonder though... Beast-Tamers Shoulders. The bonus they apply should be applied ahead of the talentbonusses from Beast Mastery, the tree, or the pet talent tree. So in effect we have a rather more powerful bonus in it since the 2% damage is applied to the 100 rather than the added effect of the talents (149?). In effect that should mean with Spiked Collar and both Unleashed Fury and Kindred Spirits a BM pet should not hit for 151 but 151.98. That makes them almost a full percent better, and combined with the other talents and bonusses, it should amount to a total bonus that is quite a bit better.

Except [Beast-tamer's Shoulders] increase crit chance, not crit damage. In fact, since they changed Spider's Bite in beta, there's no way to influence the crit damage modifier of pet attacks.

KraxisSingular · 11/06/08, 12:20 AM

Originally Posted by Tsook

Except [Beast-tamer's Shoulders] increase crit chance, not crit damage. In fact, since they changed Spider's Bite in beta, there's no way to influence the crit damage modifier of pet attacks.

Ok, so I made a little mistake with the number but I thought it was clear that I was speaking about the +% damage since I mention Spiked Collar and the damage talents...

sihyunie · 11/06/08, 1:46 AM

I was toying around with the spreadsheet for lvl 80 and naxx 25 gears (44.7% crit... wtf) and devilsaur.
So, it seems that points in bestial discipline is completely useless and one point in GftT is plenty good enough for focus regeneration at such crit rate.
The spreadsheet shows 44.7% crit and 1.21 shots per sec, which would give 13.5 focus regened per sec through GftT, and with 6 from pet base regen, we have total of 19.5 focus/sec.
Pet uses MB every 7.5 sec (due to pet GCD) and 5 Bites in between, which gives 19.3 focus/sec spent, not counting free rabid every 45 sec, so the math agrees.
Now, there really isn't other talent to put points in instead of bestial discipline (other than say max mend pet and spirit bond to make pet survive longer in raid damage heavy fight), and the talent would provide a safer buffer for crit droughts. I just thought it's interesting that on average, bestial discipline is doing nothing.

Another thing is, 1 pt in invigoration gives me 100% hawk uptime. I can't seem to find what the boss fight length is, but I already expected invigoration to give good deal of dps boost by reducing viper uptime, I just don't know how many points I should put in it. With 0 points in invigoration, time to oom is 316sec, while w/ 1 point, it's 1136sec, which really should be enough for any reasonable fight. I'm not sure how the spreadsheet calculates replenishment

Improved tracking, while the talent sounds good, is worse than basically any talent you could take points off of for it (I dunno if it's trivial, so I figured I'd just mention it, since I can't remember if it was mentioned b4 or not).

So I ended up with 54/14/3 for my spec and 4702.99dps against lvl 83 boss w/ 10% more armor. I'd appreciate people's comment/opinion.

P.S. I can't use 2h weap from WotLK, and also ArP gems still are at ArP, not the rating.

EDIT: on buff page, if I turn on both TSA and Unleashed Rage, it correctly figures out that they don't stack and give only 10% ap boost for the hunter, but they stack on pet tab. Also, Horn of Winter overwrites Strength of Earth Totem regardless of which one is better.

Sienna · 11/06/08, 7:23 AM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

I don't see the difference really. You assume the talent and gem bonus are applied equally, or the gem after the talent. But it doesn't work like that. Talents have an interesting tendecy to be applied after various gear bonusses, like that of the relics or glyphs. Heck even our own BW glyph is applied ahead of talents (64 second CD vs 70 secind CD).
That means the gem is always taken into account as a natural part before the talents are applied.

The damagebonus the talent then has to increase is the 106 of the 206. And that gives the 137.8 critbonus.
It might be somewhat convoluted, but it is only a matter of priority of application, and talents do come last.

That makes me wonder though... Beast-Tamers Shoulders. The bonus they apply should be applied ahead of the talentbonusses from Beast Mastery, the tree, or the pet talent tree. So in effect we have a rather more powerful bonus in it since the 2% damage is applied to the 100 rather than the added effect of the talents (149?). In effect that should mean with Spiked Collar and both Unleashed Fury and Kindred Spirits a BM pet should not hit for 151 but 151.98. That makes them almost a full percent better, and combined with the other talents and bonusses, it should amount to a total bonus that is quite a bit better.

Yes that's basically the idea like I said, but I'd consider that a bug in the tooltip at least. Because you are in the end getting more than 3% more critical damage. And if you read my earlier post you are explaining the 137.8 exactly the way I explained. So I'm aware of how the gem reacts to the talent. It's just something I wouldn't have expected.

Nandei · 11/06/08, 8:13 AM

Elixir of Major Agility got nerfed in the latest patch. It now only gives 30 agility and 12 crit rating instead of 35 agility and 20 crit rating. The patch notes also say that the effect of Elixir of Mongoose was reduced. Instead of 28 crit rating, it now gives just 10. Agility remains the same.

Midnight · 11/06/08, 10:34 AM

I found it interesting that using Readiness for more Rapid Fire uptime always seems to hurt more than it helps because of the GCD it incurs. Even when using as few haste as possible to maximize the effect of Rapid Fire a rotation using Readiness comes out below the same one without it.

In other news, I wonder if there´s a bug with Thori'dal, AmmoDPS and Steady Shot because it keeps coming up more or less far above the next best ranged weapon Envoy of Mortality, which seems to be better in kind of all stats. As much as I´d like our first and only legendary to stay competitive at least until the middle of WotLK progression, I don´t believe this is correct.

Kajsa · 11/06/08, 12:26 PM

Has anyone else seen this?

When I checked the ashtongue talisman section in calculations it lists my steady cast at 1.73, but as a BM hunter my steady cast is really around 1.4, is it possible that the spreadsheet isn't taking the talented haste from serpent's swiftness into effect? I beleive my cast was around 1.7 when I was marks so this would seem to make sense.

Anyways this would make the talisman considerably higher ranked if the uptime really gets the kind of boost that .2 less cast time would bring.

But maybe it's just me or just a display bug so posting here.

Edit: Oh and shandara, how much trouble would it be to put an option in shot rotation tab that allows the use of rapid fire during aspect of viper period? I've been using it for regen and it seems like it would be a greater benefit, but thats just intuition.

Zeuxis · 11/06/08, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Midnight

I found it interesting that using Readiness for more Rapid Fire uptime always seems to hurt more than it helps because of the GCD it incurs. Even when using as few haste as possible to maximize the effect of Rapid Fire a rotation using Readiness comes out below the same one without it.

I can confirm this from actual testing. My dps is consistently higher when I mash readiness only if I'm on the move or switching targets or otherwise not shooting. Every time I use it in the middle of dps'ing to reset rapid, my dps drops like a rock, and the resultant extra rapid fire does not come even remotely close to making up for it. In fact, the extra chimera shot you get from readiness seems to be worth more than the extra rapidfire, especially if it crits. I'm not sure if the sheet is accounting for the chimera reset, but it is certainly correct in lowering dps despite the rapid-fire reset.

Midnight · 11/06/08, 1:02 PM

Originally Posted by Zeuxis

I can confirm this from actual testing. My dps is consistently higher when I mash readiness only if I'm on the move or switching targets or otherwise not shooting. Every time I use it in the middle of dps'ing to reset rapid, my dps drops like a rock, and the resultant extra rapid fire does not come even remotely close to making up for it. In fact, the extra chimera shot you get from readiness seems to be worth more than the extra rapidfire, especially if it crits. I'm not sure if the sheet is accounting for the chimera reset, but it is certainly correct in lowering dps despite the rapid-fire reset.

It is accounting for the chimera reset if you can believe the rotation test tab. I also try to save my readiness if I know i´m only getting one more until the mob is below 20% and I´ve just used Kill Shot. Still this came as something of a surprise when I first saw it at the spreadsheet.

Sienna · 11/06/08, 10:41 PM

Improved Aspect Of The Hawk uptime table

I don't know which AOTH uptime table you are using but I compared my results from theoretical calculation to Glaurong's. I'm preparing my own spreadsheet right now but I can send you the AOTH calculation part. (Mine doesn't use fixed coefficients, calculates the uptime for each point given in Improved AOTH talent and each bow speed/haste you enter, total probability calculation with no error rate.) I also found that pet focus regen modeling in Cheeky was a bit too optimistic, gonna remodel that one as well, also Master Tactician.

Shandara · 11/07/08, 8:01 AM

Update:

- Fixed 2 typos on the gem tab
- Glyph of Aimed Shot now reduces its mana cost by 20%
- Fixed some stacking issues with buffs
- Gems with ArP now use the corresponding rating value
- Fixed Thor'idal gear planner bug
- changed 2 elixirs to match nerfs in latest patch (Mongoose and Major Agi)
- A refreshed Serpent Sting now isn't affected by periods of time spent in Aspect of the Viper
- Added an option to the Settings tab to use the results from the Rotation Test instead of the predicted frequencies for all calculations
- Fix for Thunderstomp (deals physical damage)
- TSA (yours) and other +% AP buffs don't stack for your pet any more

@Kajsa:
The listed frequency is different from the casting time. Even if your Steady Shot has a 1.3 cast time it might not necessarily mean you do use it every 1.3 seconds. First there is the GCD preventing that and secondly there are other shots/abilities you use which use up GCDs as well. The calculations use the actual frequency at which you use Steady Shot so that's why it's listed as having a 1.73 frequency.

@Sienna:
If you have better models for IaoTH and Master Tactician, I would like to use them. I haven't really touched those portions of the old sheet so they're still (mostly) using the ones designed by Cheeky (with help from others). I'm no math wizard myself.

KraxisSingular · 11/07/08, 11:13 AM

- Fix for Thunderstomp (deals physical damage)

Have I missed something? As far as I understand it still deals Nature damage, can still get resisted, but instead of scaling off the pet AP it scales off the pet spellpower. Did it get a ninja 'fix'?

TrevvyTrev · 11/07/08, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

Have I missed something? As far as I understand it still deals Nature damage, can still get resisted, but instead of scaling off the pet AP it scales off the pet spellpower. Did it get a ninja 'fix'?

No, that is exactly how it works. The notes said it got changed to *not* use a physical *coefficient*, but did not change the type of damage it does. It's still nature. Besides, even if you misread the notes, it would make more sense to read them as saying it went *from* physical to spell damage anyway.

H0mez · 11/07/08, 12:09 PM

I was going over the sheet and realized as BM that haste was valued alot, even though in game I was at or below the 1.5 second threshold for steady shot.

Once I changed my latency to 0 I started getting correct numbers for haste.

It seems that when latency is added into the shot time of steady shot, the spreadsheet assumes you need more haste. But that isn't true, in a perfect world the cooldown of steady shot is 1.5, and with a latency of .1 that cooldown becomes 1.6, and regardless of how much haste you have you would never be able to get that below 1.6 because of the latency. Am I right on this?

So the haste cap should be determined for the shot time of steady shot(which includes latency) not 1.5 seconds.

KraxisSingular · 11/08/08, 2:02 AM

Originally Posted by TrevvyTrev

No, that is exactly how it works. The notes said it got changed to *not* use a physical *coefficient*, but did not change the type of damage it does. It's still nature. Besides, even if you misread the notes, it would make more sense to read them as saying it went *from* physical to spell damage anyway.

That's the point... I asked because Shandara's note indicated it does physical now, in the sense that all the other notes are post fix, so one would have to assume that note was also post fix, meaning what is says is what it does, not what it has been changed from. If it had said "dealt physical damage" then I would never have been unsure. "Deals" however means what it does now.

Typo?

Shandara · 11/08/08, 2:19 AM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

That's the point... I asked because Shandara's note indicated it does physical now, in the sense that all the other notes are post fix, so one would have to assume that note was also post fix, meaning what is says is what it does, not what it has been changed from. If it had said "dealt physical damage" then I would never have been unsure. "Deals" however means what it does now.

Typo?

I had Thunderstomp deal magical damage and be affected by magical coefficients and modifiers first, but I read a post about it on TKASomething where the poster reported it dealt physical damage in the combat log and 'seemed' to be affected by armor since the last patch.

I haven't had a chance to tame a Gorilla myself and really test it yet.

Azurei · 11/08/08, 6:18 AM

Found a new enchant in the AH tonight that is missing from the sheet.
[Scroll of Enchant Gloves - Precise Strikes]

Roywyn · 11/08/08, 7:31 AM

Originally Posted by Azurei

Found a new enchant in the AH tonight that is missing from the sheet.
[Scroll of Enchant Gloves - Precise Strikes]

Enchant Gloves - Spell Strike is the old name for it and it's in the list.
The list has BC recipies but is missing Enchant Gloves - Precision, +20 hit rating.
Might fix both in on strike.

MP5 to DPS conversion
I was looking for something complete different though.

Mana Regeneration from Improved Water Elemental. It restores some mana for the whole raid.
0.6% of your total mana every 5 seconds while the pet is up. It's up during the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th minute of the fight.
(1 minute duration, 2 minutes cooldown, an a talent to immediately reset the cooldown once.)

The sheet has 1Agi/2AP/1Int at about 1 DPS each, and "MP5 at 0.67 DPS".
It also has "MP5 at 0.67 DPS per item budget", also 1 mp5 = 2.5 agi/int/rating in budget.
Which one is the fluke? I hope the latter, but I'd love to make sure.

The second question then would be - do you know what that number would look like at 80 in Naxx gear?
The "DPS per MP5" mana conversion? And what mana pools are you looking at roughly?

I'm just trying to gauge how much you and others would get from raid wide mana talents.

Shandara · 11/08/08, 7:40 AM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

The sheet has 1Agi/2AP/1Int at about 1 DPS each, and "MP5 at 0.67 DPS".
It also has "MP5 at 0.67 DPS per item budget", also 1 mp5 = 2.5 agi/int/rating in budget.
Which one is the fluke? I hope the latter, but I'd love to make sure.

I forgot to change the 'per item budget' figure for that stat. So just divide 0,67 dps by 2,5 (i.e. 0,27 dps per item budget point).

At level 80, Mp5 is worth the following for raid-buffed hunters in a 15min fight:
BM - 0 (mana is not a problem - in theory)
MM - 0,66 (0,266 per item budget)
SV - 0 (again, mathematically mana should not be a problem)

Of course that's based on the hunter getting JoW/BoW/Replenishment.

Without Replenishment:
BM - 0,49 (0,196 per item budget)
MM - 0,66 (0,266 per item budget)
SV - same as above since they provide their replenishment.

I'm not happy with the current way I use replenishment in any case since I assume a 100% uptime at the moment.

Bainik · 11/08/08, 6:08 PM

I was playing around with the spreadsheet today and noticed that the orc racial Blood Fury Does not reflect the change making it not trigger global and thus it shows as a DPS loss in the spread sheet if you include it in your rotation. Also the readiness talent adds to your DPS if you don't add it to your rotation, and if you DO at readiness to your rotation your dps goes down.

Shandara · 11/08/08, 6:25 PM

Originally Posted by Bainik

I was playing around with the spreadsheet today and noticed that the orc racial Blood Fury Does not reflect the change making it not trigger global and thus it shows as a DPS loss in the spread sheet if you include it in your rotation. Also the readiness talent adds to your DPS if you don't add it to your rotation, and if you DO at readiness to your rotation your dps goes down.

Was this changed again not to trigger GCD? Because it's such a small effect over a fairly long cooldown it's almost not worth the GCD to pop (unless you use it front-load AP onto serpent sting to refresh it with Chimera Shot).

Bainik · 11/08/08, 6:33 PM

Yes, 3.0.3 took it off the GCD (tested on live).

Osse · 11/08/08, 6:48 PM

Originally Posted by Shandara

Was this changed again not to trigger GCD? Because it's such a small effect over a fairly long cooldown it's almost not worth the GCD to pop (unless you use it front-load AP onto serpent sting to refresh it with Chimera Shot).

Would it be possible to add some kind of "rolling ignite" option to the spreadsheet which would use the attack power you have with on use AP trinket, blood fury and drums of war throughout the fight for serpent sting sting and CS-S? As it's somewhere around 10-12% boost to serpent sting and CS-S proc assuming that the sting will never drop. (Which is very likely in a lot of fights)