08/31/09, 5:35 PM   #3466
nedm
Glass Joe

Night Elf Hunter

Hyjal
For those interested, here's a complete explaination of Armor Penetration courtesy of Ghostcrawler.

 Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler Okay, here is a fairly technical explanation we put together for how armor pen works. We didn’t want Armor Penetration Rating to be too powerful against low armor targets, like it had been in BC. We also didn’t want Armor Penetration Rating to be too powerful against high armor targets. So, we decided on a system where there is a cap on how much armor the Armor Penetration Rating can be applied to. So, the first X armor on the target is reduced by the percentage listed in the Armor Penetration Rating tooltip, and all armor past that X is unaffected. Another way of understanding that is we multiply the percentage in the tooltip times the minimum of the two values: the cap, and the amount of armor on the target after all other modifiers. Computing the cap is a little tricky unless you are already familiar with how World of Warcraft armor works. There is an armor constant we’ll call C. C is derived as follows (in some pseudocode): If (level<60) C=400+85*targetlevel Else C=400+85*targetlevel+4.5*85*(targetlevel-59); For a level 80 target, C=15232.5. For a level 83, C=16635. The cap for Armor Penetration then is: (armor + C)/3. A level 80 warrior creature has 9729 armor. C=15232.5. So, the cap is (9729+15232.5)/3=8320.5. Let’s say a player has 30% armor penetration from armor penetration rating and no other modifiers that complicate the calculation (talents, Battle Stance, Sunder Armor, etc.). The game chooses the minimum of 8320.5 and 9729, so 8320.5. That is multiplied by 30% = 2496.15, and so that much armor is ignored. The effective armor on the target is 7232.85 (9729-2496.15). From a player point of view, the armor penetration rating didn’t ignore the full 30%, but instead ignored 25.66%. (85.5% as effective as expected). These equations should help you be able to test and verify that Armor Penetration Rating is working correctly and as we designed. The tooltip is not actually inaccurate, as it states: “Enemy armor reduced by up to 30.00%.” That "up to" is key. Please be sure to test without any other effects which modify the armor calculation (Battle Stance, Sunder Armor, Mace Specialization, etc.) as they may involve other systems that add additional complexity to the calculation.

09/01/09, 1:42 AM   #3467
Mustacheride
Glass Joe

Troll Hunter

Ner'zhul
 Originally Posted by nedm For those interested, here's a complete explaination of Armor Penetration courtesy of Ghostcrawler.
That explanation of ArP was pretty poor. The TC community had a lot of issues with it when he said it. At the time he was actually proven wrong on his math.

 09/01/09, 2:21 AM #3468 Neruse Piston Honda   Neruse Night Elf Hunter   Sargeras ArP has been slightly nerfed on the PTR; data in this link: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t29453-c...1/#post1371053 Edit: There's been no blue confirmation either way, so it's "wait-and-see" for now. Last edited by Neruse : 09/01/09 at 9:34 AM.
09/01/09, 6:32 AM   #3469
valiloramov
Banned

Night Elf Hunter

Chromaggus (EU)
 Originally Posted by Neruse ArP has been slightly nerfed on the PTR; data in this link: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t29453-c...1/#post1371053
I believe they've corrected the tool tip, that's all. Previously it displayed the figures relative to the maximum target armour (ignoring the cap) but now it's based on the cap. The mechanics haven't changed, just the way the information is displayed has been - it is now more accurate.

 09/01/09, 3:58 PM #3470 valiloramov Banned   Valilor Night Elf Hunter   Chromaggus (EU) 2 Quick questions: 1) Has the S/Sheet been updated to reflect the increased proc's we are seeing in Lock and Load? 2) Does that femaledwarf site match the spreadsheet? p.s. Good luck updating it for Cataclysm! My thoughts are with you...
 09/01/09, 5:20 PM #3471 Argg0 Von Kaiser   Tohsdaeh Troll Hunter   Warsong I was taking a look at the heroic 25 ranged weapon drops and I just can't understand, I trust it, but I can't understand. Fezzik's Autocannon vs Death's Head Crossbow (H) ArP is valued at 1.519 and Crit at 1.237 for me. Fezzik has 8 more agi than DHC, while DHC has 8 more haste. Sure, 8 Agi > 8 Haste, but 32 ArP >> 32 Crit. So, is Weapon speed that important? 40 DPS worth difference?
 09/01/09, 5:51 PM #3472 mugon86 Glass Joe   Tekishi Blood Elf Hunter   Whisperwind Since the gun is slower the spread on each shot is of course higher, which was the main difference between the projectile repeater and giant's bane. The larger base hits on shots that calculate based on avg weapon damage would then be higher with the gun vs DHC.
09/01/09, 10:07 PM   #3473
Drakbak
Von Kaiser

Troll Hunter

Kargath
 Originally Posted by mugon86 Since the gun is slower the spread on each shot is of course higher, which was the main difference between the projectile repeater and giant's bane. The larger base hits on shots that calculate based on avg weapon damage would then be higher with the gun vs DHC.
Except all special shots that utilize weapon damage are based on a normalized speed of 2.80s. Hell, even steady shot is normalized.

Edit: As a poster notes below me, it appears as if I am mistaken in this regard.

Last edited by Drakbak : 09/03/09 at 6:48 AM.

 09/01/09, 11:04 PM #3474 Tsook chiefly comprised of water     Tsook Troll Hunter   No WoW Account Normalized only refers to the AP contribution. Average weapon damage still affects the damage most special shots do, meaning that between two weapons of equal DPS, the slower one will do (somewhat) more damage with multi/aimed/chimera/kill. Slower weapons do maintain a lower uptime on Quick Shots, though, and other fixed proc percentage things like Master Tactician (and to a lesser extent, Thrill of the Hunt and Expose Weakness). Most shots' damage calculations look more or less like this: Weapon Damage + [ammo DPS * 2.8] + [AP/14 * 2.8] + [static amount] Notably, Explosive Shot doesn't have any weapon damage contribution, it's entirely based on your AP. Because so much of survival's damage comes from ES, it's somewhat less affected by weapon dps and sees only a very minor effect from average weapon damage increases. I would guess the reason Argg0 is seeing 40 DPS difference is that he's Marksmanship and the combination of a few DPS gain from higher average weapon damage and a few DPS gain from the agi and crit is enough to get there. Or else he's not recalculating correctly on the gear planner.
 09/02/09, 3:45 AM #3475 Kharthus Piston Honda   Kharthus Dwarf Hunter   Deathwing Minor regemmer issue: Running regemmer results in 5dps less than the gems I currently have. Couldn't find the post where you walked thru the logic it uses so I'm not sure if this is something that is easy to fix or even worth fixing.
 09/02/09, 10:20 AM #3476 areomas Glass Joe   areomas Night Elf Hunter   Blackhand The stats for this item on the spreadsheet don't match the ingame stats. [Cuirass of Calamitous Fate]
09/02/09, 10:58 AM   #3477
Shandara
Great Tiger

Night Elf Hunter

Azjol-Nerub (EU)
 Originally Posted by Kharthus Minor regemmer issue: Running regemmer results in 5dps less than the gems I currently have. Couldn't find the post where you walked thru the logic it uses so I'm not sure if this is something that is easy to fix or even worth fixing.
The problem arises from the fact it puts a yellow +hit/+agi gem in your legs, but later on it doesn't take the socket bonus. So it overvalues the yellow socket in your legs. It should put that +hit/+agi gem in your weapon instead. I'll have this fixed for the next version.

 09/02/09, 8:34 PM #3478 Mr Tazza Von Kaiser   Eltupì Dwarf Hunter   Sylvanas (EU) Since ArP is apparently getting nerfed on PTR, would it be possible to get a PTR version of the sheet with the new values? http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t29453-c...1/#post1371248 for numbers.
 09/03/09, 3:41 AM #3479 Murgli Glass Joe   Murgli Dwarf Hunter   Forscherliga (EU) infused dreadstone Hi Shandara, the infused dreadstone comes up with 15stamina and MP5, but it should be 20AP and MP5. There seems to be not many BM Hunters here Absolut graet work your sheet! Thank's a lot for your work.
09/03/09, 3:29 PM   #3480
Shandara
Great Tiger

Night Elf Hunter

Azjol-Nerub (EU)
 Originally Posted by moondo My question is: in the gear planner section most of my items are given a green suggestion to regem. The thing though, is I can't for the life of me figure out what regem option would translate into an actual dps upgrade. Is there a section in the spreadsheet that I'm not looking at that tells me what the regemming suggestions are? Or are we to figure out this by ourselves and just be thankful for the fact that it was even pointed out that we need regemming? /btw, thanks a million for the spreadsheet!
You click the button conveniently labeled 'Regem' on the Gear tab.