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01/08/10, 2:18 PM
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#4021
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Glass Joe
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I agree that it should still be in the sheet, as not only are there Deadly pieces in the spreadsheet, i251 is certainly better than many of the low end items. And with s8 coming out those will be far better for dps than things that are already on the list such as Warchief's Leggings of Foresight.
While far from optimal, the later pieces of arena gear will be a definite upgrade over a lot of gear that will be obtained by newly leveled or severely-unlucky-with-drops Hunters, especially season 8 pieces/whatever the new Wintergrasp piece(s) will be.
Last edited by AZen-LikeChill : 01/08/10 at 2:30 PM.
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01/08/10, 6:59 PM
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#4022
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Piston Honda
Troll Hunter
Ragnaros (EU)
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Feature request
As I see the next big step should be using actual haste at shot rotations, not just avarages.
It does matter that we have Steady at 1,5s or 1s half of time and 2s cast time in the other half.
(It should contain Bloodlust/Heroism, troll Berserking, Rapid Fire, and Speed potions (In shot priority?), maybe only with one settings: stack them or use only one at the time. The other on-procc haste items could mean more work than this 4 main ability.)
I know I doesn't too easy, but it would be more greatful.
And after that maybe some AP-calculating, but it's a minor problem given that we don't have an AP-cap.
Shandra, any thoughts about this?
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01/08/10, 11:01 PM
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#4023
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by Yukora
the dps on the gun is 255.0, while the dps on toc 10 guns is 212.2 or below. So it's clear that the weapon dps is significantly higher. My questions pertains to the how much the stat of ranged weapon dps is weighted. According to the spreadsheet on femaledwarf, the weapon is rated very highly; but on Shandara's spreadsheet the gun is ranked differently. This is why I am wondering about the stat weight used for Shandara's.
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You are clearly mistaken as to how that works. The stat given on the tooltip is only an average based on something nobody really cares about/pays attention to. When in reality the gun not only has horrible stats, but is simply too fast to be used. You would have terrible stat itemization with that gun (i.e. your attack power has less base damage to be applicable to), and it would probably be shooting below 1.5 when hawk procs, which is a waste. Although on an untalented/unglyphed/unmetaed shot it would be a higher average damage than a weapon with a lower white DPS, in the real world where all of these things apply that gun is horrid. I'd suggest DEing or vendoring it stat.
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01/09/10, 12:46 AM
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#4024
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Glass Joe
Tauren Death Knight
Durotan
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Originally Posted by nedm
You are clearly mistaken as to how that works. The stat given on the tooltip is only an average based on something nobody really cares about/pays attention to. When in reality the gun not only has horrible stats, but is simply too fast to be used. You would have terrible stat itemization with that gun (i.e. your attack power has less base damage to be applicable to), and it would probably be shooting below 1.5 when hawk procs, which is a waste. Although on an untalented/unglyphed/unmetaed shot it would be a higher average damage than a weapon with a lower white DPS, in the real world where all of these things apply that gun is horrid. I'd suggest DEing or vendoring it stat.
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Is femaledwarf's spreadsheet just wrong then? If so, that's fine. I just want to know the reasoning.
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01/09/10, 12:48 AM
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#4025
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Bald Bull
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Originally Posted by nedm
You are clearly mistaken as to how that works. The stat given on the tooltip is only an average based on something nobody really cares about/pays attention to. When in reality the gun not only has horrible stats, but is simply too fast to be used. You would have terrible stat itemization with that gun (i.e. your attack power has less base damage to be applicable to), and it would probably be shooting below 1.5 when hawk procs, which is a waste. Although on an untalented/unglyphed/unmetaed shot it would be a higher average damage than a weapon with a lower white DPS, in the real world where all of these things apply that gun is horrid. I'd suggest DEing or vendoring it stat.
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I'm pretty sure you guys are greatly exaggerating how bad the tank gun is, it's not that bad at all. It's worse than other 264 weapons for sure, but saying things like "The stat given on the tooltip is only an average based on something nobody really cares about" is completely incorrect, we care quite a lot about raw weapon DPS currently. How fast the gun fires while under AotH procs is also completely immaterial, the only thing wrong with a fast weapon is that it has lower mean damage for aimed, chimera, kill and silencing shot. In T10, the faster speed is actually quite a large boost to T10 2pc uptime - mine goes from 24.88% uptime (3.73% average damage bonus) using Zod's to 33.18% uptime (4.98% average damage bonus) - given how easy it is currently to get 2pc t10 whether you raid or not, and how good 2pc t10 is, this last point is a very significant point in the gun's favour.
The stats on the gun are mostly useless, but stats on a ranged weapon are so negligible that it doesn't even begin to outweigh the effect of the base damage difference between say a 245 weapon and a 264 weapon, or in this weapon's case the difference in 2pc uptime. On the spreadsheet as MM, I go from 10494.11 dps using a 245 weapon to 10593.78 dps using the 264 tanking rifle. The 251 bow from ICC10 clocks in at 10597.31 dps, while my normal 264 Zod's is 10860.52 dps. This is with all the hit on the gun being unused, if I actually needed the hit the gun would be higher (but so would the 251 bow). If you don't have 2pc T10 the gun loses a lot of it's power, but since all you need is 120 badges to get 2pc, I'm going to go ahead and assume most people have it already or will soon enough.
If for some reason a hunter ends up with the gun, it's a completely viable choice, albeit an expensive one. You can see how much DPS it is for yourself by entering its stats in on the Custom gear tab and selecting "Custom" for your ranged slot on the spreadsheet.
Last edited by alienangel : 01/09/10 at 1:01 AM.
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01/09/10, 12:52 AM
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#4026
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Bald Bull
Human Paladin
Frostmourne
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Originally Posted by KergeKacsa
As I see the next big step should be using actual haste at shot rotations, not just avarages.
It does matter that we have Steady at 1,5s or 1s half of time and 2s cast time in the other half.
(It should contain Bloodlust/Heroism, troll Berserking, Rapid Fire, and Speed potions (In shot priority?), maybe only with one settings: stack them or use only one at the time. The other on-procc haste items could mean more work than this 4 main ability.)
I know I doesn't too easy, but it would be more greatful.
And after that maybe some AP-calculating, but it's a minor problem given that we don't have an AP-cap.
Shandra, any thoughts about this?
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None of what you've described would affect the shot rotation simply because the hunter GCD cannot be lowered under 1.5s. A steady shot cast time can be reduced considerably below that, but you can't cast another one until the GCD is available.
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01/09/10, 1:10 AM
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#4027
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Bald Bull
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Originally Posted by Yukora
Is femaledwarf's spreadsheet just wrong then? If so, that's fine. I just want to know the reasoning.
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Femaledwarf is likely correct in estimating how much DPS the gun does when equipped, and Shandara's spreadsheet is likely correct in estimating this as well. Are you actually seeing major differences in what they claim your DPS will be with the gun equipped?
If instead of looking at DPS with the item equipped you are looking at the gear ranking on the Gear Planner tab, Shandaras' Spreadsheet is a bit wonky with how it ranks custom gear, primarily I think because it treats them as having ilvl 0 - make sure you don't have the page set to ignore items below ilvl 200 or something (set it to 0), then make sure the Ranged box is checked off under "Slots to Calculated DPS for" (you can uncheck the rest for now to massively speed things up) and click the Recalculate button. You should see the custom weapon receiving a more reasonable ranking now, although I think it still won't factor in set bonus uptime changes into the ranking.
Your previous questions about the DPS weight of weapon DPS is hard to answer, since I don't think that's how the spreadsheet ranks weapons, I believe it ranks them by equipping them and seeing what their effect is on final DPS.
It's a pity there isn't a heroic version of the gun actually, with the dramatic effect it has on 2pT10 uptime, a 277 version of it could have been an upgrade over 264 Zod's.
Last edited by alienangel : 01/09/10 at 1:25 AM.
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01/09/10, 5:50 AM
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#4028
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Piston Honda
Troll Hunter
Ragnaros (EU)
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Originally Posted by Nebelwerfer
None of what you've described would affect the shot rotation simply because the hunter GCD cannot be lowered under 1.5s. A steady shot cast time can be reduced considerably below that, but you can't cast another one until the GCD is available.
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That's the problem.
The spreadsheet overvalues the dynamic haste as Steady shots.
For example: The spreadsheet calculates the Bloodlust/heroism as a 103% and rapid fire as a 107% static haste modifier. This means your steady shot cast time (and your auto shoot timer too, but that doesn't matter since it doesn't got a gcd) is lower through the whole fight with a fix percentage. In my spreadsheet the cast time 1,51s which is almost the best, near to GCD.
But in real life we got Bloodlust when our Steady cast time goes under 1,5s, so part of it's wasted. This could be happed with troll racial, potion, or any on-procc haste.
Shortly: Every haste that lowers Steady cast time under 1,5s is partially wasted in real life, and it would be great thing if is could be in the spreadsheet.
(It's occurs only with Steady shot as none of our shots (except Steady ofc) are casted and could be limited by GCD.)
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01/09/10, 9:08 AM
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#4029
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Hunter
Dunemaul (EU)
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Could someone explain me why "Glyph of Chimera Shot" drops my dps theoretically? I believe it is a bug, but I would like to confirm, if not, please explain yourself.
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01/09/10, 9:16 AM
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#4030
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Glass Joe
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I've been having some calculation issues lately using spreadsheet version 93e. To my knowledge the armor penetration cap is 1400, and while using the passive armor penetration of my current gear, NES, and food buff (662+678+40=1380) I am debating which gem to put in my Widebarrel Flintlock (H)[yellow socket +4 agi bonus). Ideally I would like to use an agility/crit gem, however, an armor penetration gem would put me right at 1400 (What I thought to be the highest dps choice).
Unfortunately, it seems that my spreadsheet is putting both agi. and agi/crit at higher dps than an armor penetration gem. In an effort to solve this issue I have calculated both buffed and unbuffed dps. I also checked my dps with Blackened Dragonfin over Hearty Mammoth and once again I saw a dps increase dropping down to 1340 armor penetration. Please let me know if you have any idea what is going on.
To my knowledge hitting the armor penetration cap should be the higher dps output. DPS values unbuffed are as follows:
Blackened Dragonfin and Agility/Crit gem: 5162.78(1340 armor pen)
Hearty Rhino and ArP gem: 5157.78 (1400 armor pen)
Blackened Dragonfin and ArP gem: 5158.74 (1380 armor pen)
I believe the highest yielding dps if I had to gem armor penetration with my current set up would be to go armor pen in a red socket and use agi/crit in the yellow gun socket, however the spreadsheet's calculations have me confused on the actual armor penetration cap; due to the fact that it seems to be calculation 1 agi > 1 arp under the arp cap.
*Problem fixed, I was using spreadsheet 93e but decided to download latest version again*
Last edited by Rekkis : 01/09/10 at 9:43 AM.
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01/09/10, 4:53 PM
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#4031
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by alienangel
Femaledwarf is likely correct in estimating how much DPS the gun does when equipped, and Shandara's spreadsheet is likely correct in estimating this as well. Are you actually seeing major differences in what they claim your DPS will be with the gun equipped?
If instead of looking at DPS with the item equipped you are looking at the gear ranking on the Gear Planner tab, Shandaras' Spreadsheet is a bit wonky with how it ranks custom gear, primarily I think because it treats them as having ilvl 0 - make sure you don't have the page set to ignore items below ilvl 200 or something (set it to 0), then make sure the Ranged box is checked off under "Slots to Calculated DPS for" (you can uncheck the rest for now to massively speed things up) and click the Recalculate button. You should see the custom weapon receiving a more reasonable ranking now, although I think it still won't factor in set bonus uptime changes into the ranking.
Your previous questions about the DPS weight of weapon DPS is hard to answer, since I don't think that's how the spreadsheet ranks weapons, I believe it ranks them by equipping them and seeing what their effect is on final DPS.
It's a pity there isn't a heroic version of the gun actually, with the dramatic effect it has on 2pT10 uptime, a 277 version of it could have been an upgrade over 264 Zod's.
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The main difference I saw occured when I replaced [Rowan's Rifle of Silver Bullets] with [Item not found!] on femaledwarf. I got a 72.15 dps loss which is a lot different than what you tested on the spreadsheet. Others said the [Rowan's Rifle of Silver Bullets] was worse than toc 10 weapons when the femaledwarf and shandarah's both say that the weapon actually ranks higher than togc 10 weapons and the NJ Bone Bow (I'm a dwarf). Although as I stated above, you had results showing the NJ Bone Bow to be slightly better than the Rowan's (Not counting the extra 2 piece uptime or dwarf racial). You definitely have cleared up a lot of the questions I had about the [Rowan's Rifle of Silver Bullets]. How much extra dps do you believe that the gun provides via the Tier 10 2 piece?
Last edited by Darklumiya : 01/09/10 at 5:03 PM.
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01/09/10, 5:19 PM
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#4032
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Bald Bull
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Originally Posted by Darklumiya
How much extra dps do you believe that the gun provides via the Tier 10 2 piece?
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The gun shows as 10812.22 with the set bonus, and only 10379.10 in the same gear but with the set bonus disabled, so apparently around 550 dps  It really does have a massive effect on uptime for the set (at least in theory), to the point where if a fast 277 weapon were to exist with decent stats, we'd almost certainly prefer it to a slow one of the same ilvl.
To decide whether you want to use the tank gun or not though, I'd recommend just going by what the spreadsheet or femaledwarf says. If you don't have the 2pc, it's probably better to just wait on a weapon drop. All the numbers above are for my character and rotation/glyphs/latency, yours could very well be quite different.
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01/09/10, 7:13 PM
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#4033
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Banned
Blood Elf Hunter
Runetotem (EU)
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Originally Posted by baklava
Could someone explain me why "Glyph of Chimera Shot" drops my dps theoretically? I believe it is a bug, but I would like to confirm, if not, please explain yourself.
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It isn't a bug.
The loss comes from the fact that you don't actually gain any Chimeras by using it. You have 86 Haste Rating, that means your Steady casts are pretty slow. I want to commend you on being that Haste efficient btw. Anyway, even if you have Imp Hawk chances are that you will spend more than 9 seconds using up 6 globals. Stuff like lag and non-hasted Steadies will all lead to the same usage of Chimeras compared to an unglyphed situation.
So the glyph adds nothing, or now and then, a little bit of DPS. The loss comes from losing an actual worthy glyph.
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01/09/10, 10:40 PM
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#4034
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Von Kaiser
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Base stats changed a bit in 3.3. Base stats for a 80 Tauren Hunter are now:
Strength 79
Agility 177
Stamina 129
Intelligence 86
Spirit 99
Health 7690 (Not counting health from base stam)
Mana 5046 (Not counting mana from base int)
Last edited by Thelastdeadmouse : 01/09/10 at 11:07 PM.
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01/11/10, 7:08 AM
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#4035
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Hunter
Dunemaul (EU)
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Originally Posted by KraxisSingular
It isn't a bug.
The loss comes from the fact that you don't actually gain any Chimeras by using it. You have 86 Haste Rating, that means your Steady casts are pretty slow. I want to commend you on being that Haste efficient btw. Anyway, even if you have Imp Hawk chances are that you will spend more than 9 seconds using up 6 globals. Stuff like lag and non-hasted Steadies will all lead to the same usage of Chimeras compared to an unglyphed situation.
So the glyph adds nothing, or now and then, a little bit of DPS. The loss comes from losing an actual worthy glyph.
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But if you remove the glyph, you get more dps than Glyph of Chimera Shot somehow (which sounds me impossible), if you check the all MM hunters around most of the best hunters are using Glyph of Chimera Shot nowadays
Moreover, Check the rotation, rotation doesnt get any effect from the glyph (still 10 sec between Glyphs.) I tried glyph of explosive shot (which is not relavant glyph for MM), it gives more dps than glyph of Chimera shot
I believe there is a problem.
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