WotLK DPS spreadsheet - Page 289

Rivkah · 08/10/10, 4:56 PM

Last I checked, the way the dps per stat was calculated in the Excel spreadsheet is by adding 50 of each stat and recalculating the dps, then averaging the gain. So that is why as you get very close to the cap the dps per stat decreases, because some of that 50 ArPen is wasted when calculating the average.

Nooska · 08/11/10, 9:47 AM

To expand on Rivkah's post, I am under the impression that the opposite becomes true after the cap, the spreadsheet removes 50 points (explaining why it increases in value after the cap again).

Hober · 08/13/10, 4:44 AM

anyone got a mirror for the spreadsheet?

iJax · 08/13/10, 5:31 AM

I think I found two minor flaws in the spreadsheet.
Load my toon from armory
NE, Dracojax, Aggramar

Glyphs & talents
SS / ES / StdyS
0/15/56

Priority order
RF / ES / BA / SS / KS / AS / StdyS/ ***Placing Kill Shot higher actually lowers DPS. I think this is flaw # 1***

I have no Heroic gear, so the optimizer is choosing the same gear as what I have.

As loaded from Armory, The spreadsheet yeilds a DPS of .... 10756.61 (Hunter = 9317.05 & Pet = 1439.56)

Resetting The gear, then running Optimizer, chooses the same gear, but ignores the socket bonus on both my Leggings of Northern lights and LogSplitters. It gems the blue sockets to +20agil (Blue DPS gem setting is set on Shifting Dreadstone 10 Agi, 15 Sta).

This lowers DPS to 10331.67 (Hunter = 8894.91 & Pet = 1436.76). I can only conclude the Optimizer is not bringing in the +3% Crit dam from the Meta gem. If I start with my actual gems, then regem the Blue sockets for +20 Agil gems I get 10756.27. It doesnt lower all the way too 10331.67 **This is flaw #2**

When I regem my Rock Steady Treads, from +20 Agil / +20 Agil, to +20 Agil / +10 Agil +15 Sta, allowing the socket bonus, my dps lowers to 10752.58.

I am sorry if you already knew the spreadsheet optimizer was doing this.

Whitefyst · 08/13/10, 7:24 PM

Originally Posted by iJax

I think I found two minor flaws in the spreadsheet.

Priority order
RF / ES / BA / SS / KS / AS / StdyS/ ***Placing Kill Shot higher actually lowers DPS. I think this is flaw # 1***

I have no Heroic gear, so the optimizer is choosing the same gear as what I have.

As loaded from Armory, The spreadsheet yeilds a DPS of .... 10756.61 (Hunter = 9317.05 & Pet = 1439.56)

Resetting The gear, then running Optimizer, chooses the same gear, but ignores the socket bonus on both my Leggings of Northern lights and LogSplitters. It gems the blue sockets to +20agil (Blue DPS gem setting is set on Shifting Dreadstone 10 Agi, 15 Sta).

This lowers DPS to 10331.67 (Hunter = 8894.91 & Pet = 1436.76). I can only conclude the Optimizer is not bringing in the +3% Crit dam from the Meta gem. If I start with my actual gems, then regem the Blue sockets for +20 Agil gems I get 10756.27. It doesnt lower all the way too 10331.67 **This is flaw #2**

When I regem my Rock Steady Treads, from +20 Agil / +20 Agil, to +20 Agil / +10 Agil +15 Sta, allowing the socket bonus, my dps lowers to 10752.58.

Without knowing exactly what settings you have in your spreadsheet, these may or may not be spreadsheet problems and may be user "problems" instead.

For the first problem, I ran it my copy of the spreadsheet and saw a 60 DPS increase with moving KS up to right after ES. I do see a a small decrease of 6 DPS from that when moving KS to above ES for a 54 DPS gain from the original priority. The reason for the smaller increase is a swap of a Aimed Shot for a Steady Shot.

Concerning the Optimizer, it only optimizes per the constraints you provide it. Most often when someone has a problem with the optimizer, it is due to a bad setting. If you do not have the best gem options chosen for your spec, it can cause a decrease to optimize using them. If you are concerned that your meta gem requirements are not being satisified, make sure that the Setting for Gem-for-meta-requirements has a Nightmare's Tear.

Using the default settings in the spreadsheet (I redownloaded a fresh version to check), I get a 78 DPS upgrade by regemming you current gems. Ignoring the socket bonus on Logsplitters is about a 1.5 DPS upgrade. And losing the socket bonus on your legs by replacing both the blue and yellow sockets with agility gems is a 7 DPS gain for SV.

iJax · 08/14/10, 7:26 PM

Originally Posted by Whitefyst

Without knowing exactly what settings you have in your spreadsheet, these may or may not be spreadsheet problems and may be user "problems" instead.

For the first problem, I ran it my copy of the spreadsheet and saw a 60 DPS increase with moving KS up to right after ES. I do see a a small decrease of 6 DPS from that when moving KS to above ES for a 54 DPS gain from the original priority. The reason for the smaller increase is a swap of a Aimed Shot for a Steady Shot.

Concerning the Optimizer, it only optimizes per the constraints you provide it. Most often when someone has a problem with the optimizer, it is due to a bad setting. If you do not have the best gem options chosen for your spec, it can cause a decrease to optimize using them. If you are concerned that your meta gem requirements are not being satisified, make sure that the Setting for Gem-for-meta-requirements has a Nightmare's Tear.

Using the default settings in the spreadsheet (I redownloaded a fresh version to check), I get a 78 DPS upgrade by regemming you current gems. Ignoring the socket bonus on Logsplitters is about a 1.5 DPS upgrade. And losing the socket bonus on your legs by replacing both the blue and yellow sockets with agility gems is a 7 DPS gain for SV.

Agreed. You are getting exactly what I get if I simply regem using the default gem settings. Please RESET in gear sheet, then load Optimizer giving it options like all T9 gear, all emblem gear and the gear I am wearing. For me on default settings it will choose the gear I am wearing, gem it ok, but the DPS will be way off. The dps is over 400dps less then if you manually just choose the same gems the optimizer does.

I dont know what setting I could have changed. I ignore that page since its best not to goof with it unless you know it well...and I do not.

Can you give me an example of what I might have changed, or what default setting could cause this error?

kenshunter · 08/16/10, 4:57 PM

Is there a way to force the spreadsheet to focus on MM hunters that want to go the ArPen route? So that the optimizer only chooses items that will get you to 1400 (whilst including elixirs and rhino food buffs)?

Whitefyst · 08/18/10, 4:58 PM

Originally Posted by iJax

Agreed. You are getting exactly what I get if I simply regem using the default gem settings. Please RESET in gear sheet, then load Optimizer giving it options like all T9 gear, all emblem gear and the gear I am wearing. For me on default settings it will choose the gear I am wearing, gem it ok, but the DPS will be way off. The dps is over 400dps less then if you manually just choose the same gems the optimizer does.

I dont know what setting I could have changed. I ignore that page since its best not to goof with it unless you know it well...and I do not.

Can you give me an example of what I might have changed, or what default setting could cause this error?

Ah, I have never used the Reset Gear button before. So I decided to do some quick experiments.

A couple things to note first that can cause problems:
1) If you change any gem setting, it is recommended to change them all even if you are choosing the default. This was a problem that was previously reported.
2) On the Optimizer tab make sure all of the enchants are correct for you and that your 2H weapon enchant is in the 2H Enchant slot. If you put it into the normal Enchant slot, it will disappear when you optimize since you are telling the optimizer not to use a 2H enchant.

I loaded your current gear/talents into the spreadsheet. On the Settings tab, I changed all gem settings to Delicates except for Red/Yellow/Full +hit gems, meta gem, and meta gem requirement gems for which I set the slots to the same as the default. I did Recalculate DPS on the Gear Planner. Your current DPS was 10662.73 with the Gear Planner stating you could gain 3.34 DPS from a regem.

In the optimizer I set all your current gear and enchants, then added additional inferior items so that it would still select your current gear.

Optimize Run 1: Did not press Reset Gear button and had the Start with Current Equipped Gear checked on the Optiomizer tab. The result was 10666.07, which was exactly as expected from what the Gear Planner stated would be the benefit with a regem.

Optimize Run 2: Did not press Reset Gear button and had the Start with Current Equipped Gear unchecked on the Optiomizer tab. The result was originally 10592.07. I quickly realized that the problem was due to losing the 2H weapon enchant per 2) above. I added the enchant and the result was 10666.07 as expected. I reran again with the 2H enchant correct and got 10666.07 as expected.

Optimize Run 3: Pressed Reset Gear button and had the Start with Current Equipped Gear checked on the Optiomizer tab. The result was 9804.14. It lost all of the enchants. Even with adding the enchants back in, the DPS was only 10212.66.

Optimize Run 4: Pressed Reset Gear button and had the Start with Current Equipped Gear unchecked on the Optiomizer tab. The result was 10234.14.

I am not really sure why the results are incorrect with using the Reset Gear button first either way. Maybe as part of the optimization it Recalculates the attributes +1 information as if you are naked and then uses it throughout; however, the attributes +1 data on the Overview tab was unchanged. Does anyone have an idea? I do not currently have the time to dig through the code and figure it out.

Anyway, I would suggest not hitting the Reset Gear button before doing an Optimization.

Shandara · 08/19/10, 3:23 AM

It seems it's not recalculating the sheet at some intermediate/end step(s), resulting in the differing. You can try to hit F9 and/or recalculate the shot rotation test to see if it fixes the problem.

The sheet doesn't recalculate all the cells and re-do the shot rotation at every step in the process, since Excel is so inefficient that would take a lot of time.

The losing of the enchants is a bit strange though, I'll have a look at it. Mind, you the optimizer hasn't really been a function that was, err, tested much. It was a simple extension of the functionality I made for the gear planner.

Whitefyst · 08/19/10, 10:41 AM

Ah, after doing some more quick tests, I found what is causing the difference in Run 4 (and also affecting Run 3).

When the Reset Gear button is pressed, the Ammo choice is removed; however, the Gear Optimizer does not know what ammo is used and leaves the selection blanked. By manually selecting the Ammo after running the Optimizer, the DPS correctly went from the 10234.44 calculated to the expected 10666.07. Hence, the way to fix this is to add the Ammo selection to the Ranged area of the Gear Optimizer. I do not know though if you want to bother with the change now though since Ammo is going away in Cataclysm.

I believe that everything else is fine in this case since the Hunter Statistics and Gear Statistics remained unchanged as expected and since the result ended up as expected once the Ammo choice was made.

Concerning Run 3 and the enchants going away, here is some additional information. In Run 4, only a single iteration was necessary to come to the solution. In Run 3, it stopped after the 17th iteration. This got me thinking that it seems like a bad idea to clear all your gear and then tell the Optimizer to start with your currently equipped gear since the iterations are probably trying to make comparisons against with the character being naked. The Optimizer should still ideally work in this situation and add in the enchants, but it is a bad choice of settings to make, so I suggest avoiding the combination of using the Gear Optimizer with your gear cleared and the Start with currently equpped gear option selected.

Manually adding in the enchants and the Ammo in Run 3 after it completed does correctly provide the 10666.07 DPS expected. So the problem in that case does indeed only seem to be the missing enchants.

wilegenuis · 08/27/10, 6:55 AM

As per the hunter union site the best Feet enchant would be Superior Agility with +16 Agl, as I'm eng, I can also go with Nitro Boosts that deliver critical strike of 24 (+some speed boost that is not connected directly to DPS gain). On theory +16 agl is better than 24 crit, but as per the spreadsheet Nitro Boosts provide extra +9 DPS.
Is it because the spreadsheet count the speed boost as a factor for DPS or just calc that 24 crit > 16 ag for my stat?

Whitefyst · 08/27/10, 4:30 PM

Originally Posted by wilegenuis

As per the hunter union site the best Feet enchant would be Superior Agility with +16 Agl, as I'm eng, I can also go with Nitro Boosts that deliver critical strike of 24 (+some speed boost that is not connected directly to DPS gain). On theory +16 agl is better than 24 crit, but as per the spreadsheet Nitro Boosts provide extra +9 DPS.
Is it because the spreadsheet count the speed boost as a factor for DPS or just calc that 24 crit > 16 ag for my stat?

As MM, crit rating is highly valued, not only due to our high crit bonus but also do to PS procs and pet focus regen. That is part of the reason MMs usually choose Deadly gems in yellow sockets to get most socket bonuses.

For your char as he currently is, it shows:

Agi+1 1.978
Crit+1 1.687

24 * 1.687 = 40.488 > 31.648 = 16 * 1.978 by about the 9 DPS you see when making the change. Furthermore, using the speed boost from the boots at the right time can increase DPS uptime/survivability, resulting in higher DPS.

Fafiq · 08/28/10, 4:59 AM

Is it possible that [Rowan's Rifle of Silver Bullets] and [Herkuml War Token] would be a bigger dps gain than [Njorndar Bone Bow] and [Whispering Fanged Skull]? Every web resource I found always points that both the Njorndar Bone Bow and the Whispering Fanged Skull are on a higher place in terms of dps gain. Rawr also points the same thing. Recently I used the spreadsheet for the first time in my hunter career and when I listed the items I have/have possibility to gain with adding Rowan's Rifle and War Token in the Optimize Gear section after the process both Rifle and Token showed me a dps increase over Bow and Skull for about 40 dps each. How's that possible?

Nooska · 08/28/10, 8:00 AM

@Fafiq
Yes, Rowans is a better weapon than the 251 ones. It is a tier above (ili264) with resultant higehr dps, and its a faster weapon meaning more procs of 2t10. The small loss that you experience on the non-normalized shots will - depending on gear - often be made up for by the higher dps and the more procs from faster speed. Ignore the stats, they are such an insignificant part of your dps. Herkuml is good on any fight where you shoot at least 1 shot every 10 seconds after getting it up (Rowan's helps with that too) since its a buff on you, but the spreadsheet can't really evaluate it when there are fights with 10 second (or longer) pauses, since it drops completely and needs to build up again. However the proc trinkets aren't fully utilized on these same fights too if unlucky , nothing prevents a proc from the last shot before a pause.

wilegenuis · 08/30/10, 6:58 AM

Based on the spreadsheet and Rawr, it seems that even now that my ArP is ~600, my DPS will increase if I replace my Agl gems with ArP gems (thanks again for the tip Whitefyst btw). Based on the reading I’ve done, the min level to gem ArP will be only around 800 ArP. Should I start gemming right now or wait for the “official” 800 ArP limit?
I wonder if the reason why it is recommended to start ArP gems only at 800 and not based on the spreadsheet math is the distance between theory and reality? I guess the spreadsheet cannot take into account the hunter’s movement and it assume that hunter does not move at all during the battle. Is that the reason for the distance between the level we should start ArP gemming?