Yes, I have the information. I will be uploading what I currently have, which is basically, just some of the page layout. Im trying to keep the same Tab style interface, that Cheeky used in his, as to avoid as much of the "newness" as possible.

Furthermore, we will need to coordinate on a single forum (either here or the Lodge), to prevent confusion.

As for the development/maintenance, one of the big advantages to using a PHP-MySQL system is that we (I) can create a simple, easy to use interface that allows anyone (with admin access) to add/modify items, gems, etc. As for changing core mechanics, formulas and models, Im almost certain there's someone else out there in the hunter theorycrafting community who would know php/mysql.

OK, so I've got the basic mockup done. It basically has the tabs laid out, and a few of the tabs have some form elements (text and check boxes) which don't do anything for the moment. Before we go ahead and start cranking out the math for it, I think we should talk a little bit about the UI.

The main thing we need to preserve (in my opinion) is the tabbed layout, which everyone is used to from Cheeky's. Secondly, with all the different options, it will have to be intuitive. Thus, I am thinking about making some sort of system of popups that lets users pick items, fill them with gems, enchants, etc. Coming as close to the ingame interface as possible.

The URL is

HuntarDPS :: Welcome!

let me know what you all think about it, ways to streamline it, etc. If Shandara has no objections, we ought to form a "team" to collaborate on it. I think a little extra work right now, could save us a lot of work in the future.

Also, the title is not a typo. In the mockup, i couldn't figure out a title, so I played around with the words a bit, and came up with "HuntarDPS" Let me know if you think that title is too silly or "leetspeek-ish"

Edit: The login and registration forms on the first page are dead forms. Just click "login" and it will redirect you to the main part of the site.

Edit: merged with next post, please delete.

@Kindinos:
I wouldn't mind turning the sheet into an online application. The math behind it is mostly straightforward and not really computationally heavy. The only downside to an online application is.. when it's down it's down.

@Brigwyn:
I had in fact seen your post that Wertez was picking it up, but at the time I didn't see any substantial work done on the sheet, apart from adding some obsolete gear and doing small fixes. Since the sheet is locked (even for viewing) I can't see what sort of WotLK has been done.
I'm not really interested in who has St. Cheeky's and Don Lactose's blessing, but welcome any and all help. Like Cheeky I mostly do this as a tool for myself, rather than specifically for the grand public

My point was that it's already possible to see with 1 button push what your dps is in the different Boss%. You can set the fight length yourself and the different times spent in the phases and then it'll calculate the dps for each.

I prefer this way to hardcoding the different phase lengths into the sheet and averaging out the effects of Feeding Frenzy and Kill Shot, the same way I haven't implemented Heroism/Bloodlust, since those are so fight-specific.

The Shot rotation tab uses the settings 'Boss HP%' and 'Use Kill Shot' to determine when to use Kill Shot already. To mimic real-world behavior set Use Kill Shot to Sub-20%, put it in your rotation and hit the 'Calculate Average DPS' button.

On that vein, maybe I should change the name of the 'Shot Rotation' tab since what the spreadsheet does is NOT modelling a shot rotation. It merely computes the frequency of use of your shots, given the priority you have set.

If you set it to:

Explosive Shot
Kill Shot
Multi-Shot
Arcane Shot
Steady Shot

With 'Use Kill Shot' set at 'Sub-20%' then you'll notice that for 'Boss HP%' at '35%' and '25%' Kill shot has a frequency of 0, which means it's not used at all, despite being in the rotation. Once you set the % to '15%' it'll be used and subsequently leave no room for Steady Shots and in fact eat up a few of your Arcane Shots as well.

The 'Calculate Average DPS' button checks your actual dps at 15/25/35% HP and the sheet automatically adjusts whether kill shot is used or not. Same for pet talents like Feeding Frenzy. It then averages out those 3 dps values based on the fight length/phase length you specified.

I standard set it to a 10 minute fight, 7mins spent going from 100%-30%, 1min from 30%-20%, 2mins from 20%-0%. Not quite realistic since most fights are over _faster_ once you hit sub-20% thanks to Bloodlust/Executes/Mages/etc..

It doesn't actually use the fight length, just the relative % of time spent at each phase. To reiterate, you don't need to fiddle with the Boss HP% setting if you just want to see your average dps over the total fight, just hit the button.

Small update again:
Recalculating attributes should be much faster now.

With the un-linking of auto-shot there's (practically) no haste cap any more I assume. Haste also has deprecated in value because it basically only affects autoshot after a certain amount (once you get Steady Shot below the GCD).

Is there a maximum speed at which auto-shot can fire? I believe there was a minimum, but can't remember the source of that thought.

Brigwyn,

Is there a WotLK spread sheet available for download at The Hunting Lodge? I've been looking and looking and while I've seen many a post regarding a WotLK spread sheet I haven't seen a single link for a download for it.

Edit: I believe that TBC version of the sheet has AS capped at 0.5 seconds with the reasoning being that haste doesn't effect the cast time of Auto Shot (whether true or not is debatable and I could do an experiment to test it), but with the unlinking of AS and it now being truely "instant" I'd say it no longer has any max cap.

I see a weakness of the priority system here.
A simple example with Arcane Shot > Steady Shot priority:

- Shot Rotation
0.0 arcane (0,16 frequency)
1.5 steady (0,5 frequncy)
3.0 steady
4.5 steady
6.0 arcane

- Priority system
25% arcane shot (0,16 frequency)
75% Steady Shot (0,5 frequency)

Each results the same frequencys.
But with 5/5 Improved Arcane Shot:

- Shot Rotation
0.0 arcane (0.2 frequency)
1.5 steady (0.4 frequency)
3.0 steady
4.5-5.0 wasted time
5.0 arcane

A priority system ignores the wasted time:
30% arcane shot (0.2 frequency)
70% (0.466 frequency)

Maybe using rotations for wotlk, too, is a good idea.



Another thing:
Assuming the gcd is 1.5 seconds doesn't represent the (virtual) reality.
Even when spamming a button, it takes you 50-150ms (on average) to click it.
Let's say you spam your button 10 times per seconds (fast!):
Your average gcd will be 1.55 seconds (1.5 + 1 / 10 / 2).
The 100ms are halfed, because sometimes you click just after the gcd ends, but sometimes you'll click the whole 100ms later - on average it's 50ms per gcd.

I suggest adding a cell named 'Clicks per Second'

You make a good point, but nothing that can't be dealt with.

Basically, an ability's cooldown has to be a multiple of the GCD + latency (both server-client and human reaction speed combined) to be 'exact'. Most of our abilities have a 6 second cooldown, which fits exactly with the 1.5 second cooldown. Unfortunately, most people don't play with 0 lag and inhuman reactions, even with the spell-queue that's in-game.

To solve the 'wasted' time problem, we just increase the 'perceived cooldown' to the correct amount and use that. This has the added bonus of (again) making improved Arcane Shot almost useless as it's supposed to be for raiding.

Although..

Imagine a 0,2 second latency/reaction penalty and a 5/5 improved Arcane shot:

0.0 Arcane
1.7 Steady
3,4 Steady
5,0 Arcane ready
5,1 Arcane fires

Wasted time only 0,1 second, same for 4/5 Improved Arcane Shot (but Arcane would fire at 5,2 then; instead wasting time after the GCD+latency is done instead of wasting CD time).

This is not true. Autoshot casttime is affected by haste.
It's very easy to test!

As we all know, Quartz can show the delay between the client & the server.
What Quartz does, is to count the seconds that elapse from the moment you click the steady shot button until the moment the cast starts.

Now all you have to do is to start an steadyshot with the following macro (we all know this one):
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot

You'll shoot an Auto Shot, instantly followed by the steady cast.
Because of the way the Auto Shot mechanics were changed in 2.3, the gcd will start instantly, while the steady cast will wait until the auto cast is completed. Thus, the time that elapse from the moment you click/the gcd starts until the steady cast begins is: Latency + Auto Shot Casttime.

Multiply test in our german wow-forums confirm: Auto Shot Casttime is reduced by haste.
In example, with no additional haste and BM specc, you're auto shot casttime is 0.5s / 1.15 / 1.2 = 362ms

edit:
The GCD is not affected by latency!
However, casts are.

Note: With a Steadycasttime of 1.5 Seconds and 0.2s lag, you can still shoot 1 steady per 1.5 seconds.

I downloaded that sheet yesterday and looked around in it. At this time it does not contain ANY WotLK info/talents/skills that are visible to someone without mod privilages. As such, it is useless for me to log onto the beta and try and varify/improve any equations/questions regarding that particular sheet. Why the current mods decided to hide all WotLK related tabs is beyond me as I do know Cheeky himself had some wotlk tabs in his last revision and they were easily viewable along with Cheeky's initial wrath calculations. If I need to get modifier rights to even view the tabs I guess I need to know how to go about doing such. Personally I would MUCH perfer if Wertez would have two versions available for down load; A TBC version, kept as up to date and accurate as possible until the release of WotLK, and a WotLK version that is, like wise, kept as up to date to the beta as possible. Until I can see what Wertez's calculations are I'll help Shandara with his sheet and hope any mistakes/calculations/models that I can prove/disprove/improve also are found/fixed/changed in Wertez's work.

P.S. If you know how I can get mod rights so I can view the WotLK tabs in the spread sheet shoot me a PM via these forums.

Shandara wanted to know where he was getting the idea that AS was capped. I was mearly stating that Cheeky's Sheet version 52 ALWAYS had AS as a 0.5 second cast no matter how much haste you had and was suggesting that while I had known of no proof if haste effected AS cast time, I could test for it and that either way I thought it was a moot point due to the AS changes in WotLK.

By and by though I AM glad to see proof that AS is indeed effected by haste in Live TBC wow. Perhaps Wertez can figure out a way to incorperate that knowledge into the sheet.

I believe the same cast-queue system that allowed Mages/Warlocks to ignore latency should be in play for Hunters. It's easy enough to test that on Beta. If it is there, there is no need to model latency/lag/spamspeed or anything like that. (Man, they are eliminating all the crap that made writing the original spreadsheet such a pain in the ass. I picked a lousy time to retire. )